Jesus' Sacrificial Death

[Guest Zayit]

Sometimes, when people argue with me reasonably, I learn something, I admit I was wrong, and I change my mind.  That only happens when those I am arguing with understand what I am saying.  I don't want to come off condescending or rude or sneering.  I just want to argue reasonably.  I am trying to make my point clear that an explanation for why Jesus rose from the dead doesn't solve the problem of how such an act nullifies the sacrifice.

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Shalom TT, I know this is hard for you to grasp, as believers don't truly understand the magnatude of this, but it was not just a crusifixtion, nor the shedding of blood, though that is part of it, but what happened in those last minutes of Jesus's life was nothing that any human has ever or could ever experience. That is that the one who is without sin took on the sin of the world, in a human body. Those who have been freed from sin can testify how sin "weights" one down, but I can't say that an unbeliever would under stand this. But I myself cannot imagine how horrible it would be to have even one other persons sins added to mine and have to feel them, all in a matter of a moment, let alone the sins of billions of people. But that is what happened to him. The sins of the world were poured out upon him, thus causing G-d the Father to immediately separate himself from him, leaving him totally alone, Totally. That is why he cried out,

"My G-d, My G-d why have you forsaken me!?"

As if bearing in his flesh body the sins of the world, weren't enough, he had the mose horrible of things that could ever happen to a person happen to him, the total absence of G-d.

I know this is hard to understand and I pray if you truly are seeking to understand that G-d will grant you the wisdom to do so.

[Giaour]

Zayit, I believe that you and Giaour are saying basically the same thing.  The Lord established the pattern by which sin was to be dealt with in the garden (He slew only one animal, by the way), and the principal of that pattern was completed in Christ.  In other words, an animal sacrifice was sufficient, but only as a caretaker, as a pattern of the reality confirmed in Christ.  An animal sacrifice could only cover sins temporarilly.  For the complete cleansing of sin a pure and perfect human had to willingly die.

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Thanks Ovedya,

I may not have said it the same way as zayit but I think we said basically the same thing.

I just think that zayit doesn't like me much.

[eric]

TT

Judging by some of you posts, you have seen Mel Gibson's production of the "Passion" and like a lot of unbelievers, have ripped through a few passages of the bible and because you don't comprehend the enormityof the whole situtation and reasoning of the most important part of the hisrory of the entire world you choose to come on this board to find the truth of the matter.

You have had the crucifixion and resurrection explained by many responders, and you prefer to make a mockery of the purpose of the sacrifice by saying it's no big deal. Well all I can say is, I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the scales from your eyes and prompt you to read all His word so that you too can be a recipient of his unlimited love and ultimately your own salvation.

e

edited to alter posters user name

Edited September 27, 2005 by eric

[HisWordIsSufficient]

In simple form:

Jesus' suffering didnt stop at the physical beatings etc. This was just the beginning. The spitting, the beatings, the crown of thorns, the crucifixion, all this was bad but he also became sin. He didnt just TAKE our sins. He Became sin. So that it died when he did. Imagine BECOMING sin?

what is sin? we all know. What comes with the burdan of sin? Whats the concequence? Hate, sadness, sickness, disease, opression, loneliness, hurt, greif, and many more awful things. The Lord took it all. And not just one persons... the whole worlds!!! What a spiritual, physical, and mental sacrafice! there is no greater sacrafice and no greater victory that ever has or ever will come to pass.

He was resurrected to as a sign, as overcoming of death, as Victory, as to show his saints hope. Jesus didnt do it because his dad told him to. He had free will as everyone else did. He chose to be obediant. And he chose to give his life. Nobody took it. He gave it.

Pray to God that he will show you. Let you see this wonderful truth.

[fenwar]

Hi again TempestTossed, thanks for your reply...

fenwar, I thought it was sort of the backbone of Christianity that Jesus was sacrificed in order to pay the debt for the sin of humanity, and the debt is otherwise paid for by an eternal punishment in Hell.

This is certainly how it's presented at face value, but I think there's a lot more to it than this, both in depth and breadth. Christian belief covers a wide spectrum of views on the meaning of Jesus' death and resurrection (as well as there being plenty of variation on what "hell" is all about... ranging from eternal through temporary to annihilation... but that would be yet another Massive Tangent.)

I would say my views tend to be somewhat more liberal than the majority of posters here (although I could point you to sites where my views look very conservative too!) This is a subject I love to explore and my own opinions are certainly not set in stone, so I appreciate the opportunity to have someone else probe and test them.

This is shown in Romans 3:22-26:

22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

[Guest Zayit]

Zayit, I believe that you and Giaour are saying basically the same thing.

[Guest Zayit]

Zayit, I believe that you and Giaour are saying basically the same thing.

[Ovedya]

I didn't catch that distinction. However, the fall of humanity is progressive over time. Man's first fall was to self in the garden, his second fall was to human governmet (Signified by the first city built by Cain), the third fall was to human culture (The pre-flood culture which eventually became so corrupt that God regretted that He had made man), and finally the fourth fall of man was to human religion (At Babel, where God had to personally step in to intervene. It was at this time that God personally called Abraham out of that place filled with idols). These four falls signify the progressive falling away of mankind from God's absolute provision. Behind each of these falls was Satan at work, corrupting mankind and frustrating God's economy.

[Guest Zayit]

I didn't catch that distinction.  However, the fall of humanity is progressive over time.  Man's first fall was to self in the garden, his second fall was to human governmet (Signified by the first city built by Cain), the third fall was to human culture (The pre-flood culture which eventually became so corrupt that God regretted that He had made man), and finally the fourth fall of man was to human religion (At Babel, where God had to personally step in to intervene.  It was at this time that God personally called Abraham out of that place filled with idols). These four falls signify the progressive falling away of mankind from God's absolute provision.  Behind each of these falls was Satan at work, corrupting mankind and frustrating God's economy.

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That sounds alot like what Gioar was saying and sounds like Progressive Revelation.

To me this nullifies the omniscience of G-d and his word which tells us that the Lamb of G-d who was slain from the foundation of the world.

[Ovedya]

Well, not to get too far off a subject that's already been strayed from, but revelation is progressive.