Jesus' Sacrificial Death

[Ovedya]

Fornication with rebellious angels? Absolute rebellion against God at Babel? The apostacy of the church?

[Guest Zayit]

Rebellion is Rebellion, and sin is sin, in G-ds eyes, sin is rebellion against G-d , Yeshua said all sin and even blasphemy are forgiven accept that of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which means the rejection of the atonement for our sin.

[Ovedya]

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you." (Deut. 18:10-12)

Clearly there are some things that God finds more detestable than others, even though all are equally offenses against Him.

[Ovedya]

What does Preterism have to do with anything?

[eric]

What does Preterism have to do with anything?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing Beau, not related to this thread., that I can see. He only tossed that in for good measure

[Guest Ephraim81]

Three of the worlds larget religions believe that Jesus actually existed, Judism, Islam and Christianity. That in it self should say something. Jesus was not a fanatic that irritated the religious leaders, Moses wrote of him, Isaiah cearly identifies him as the Son of God. His death was the ultimate sacrifiice because He was the Son of God, and he was spotless. When he died, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain; Whom god hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death; because it was not possible that he should be holden of it...He, seeing this before, spake of the ressurection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Hell, neither his flesh did see corruption(Acts 2:23,24,31).

[Guest saved*by*grace]

TempestTossed,

It's true that Jesus suffered the death that any other criminal would have faced. I mean if you watched this program on the National Geographic Channel about Jesus' crucifixion you would see that how we pictured his death and how it really was is true. But those are just the little details that don't really matter.

Now the bible says that the greatest gift you can give is your own life for another.

(ok I'm not really sure what verse and it's kinda late to look for it so I'm sure someone will know it and post it to read). So that is the whole point. Jesus was sent here by God to give his life for us. And to it was necessary so we as believers could go to Heaven and be with our Lord.

While on the cross Jesus said "It is finished," meaning humanity's debt of sin has been repayed, no longer requiring the animal sacrifices of the old testament. That is why the saints of the old testament couldn't go directly to Heaven. Animal blood was not sufficient enough to cleanse their sins away permanently. When Jesus shed his blood for our sins, the debt was repayed for the saints of old.

That is why Jesus' sacrifice, although he did not 'suffer' as much I guess as you would have like him to, was so important. He did it for us.

Joanie

[HisWordIsSufficient]

That is why Jesus' sacrifice, although he did not 'suffer' as much I guess as you would have like him to, was so important. He did it for us.

Joanie

I certainly would not have "liked him to" suffer more than he did...!!! Not even at all if it were possible! im sure u didnt mean it that way but i just had to add that.

As far as i see it, it doesnt matter what we think He did or didnt go through, it was bad enough and Jesus didnt HAVE to do it, He chose to, for us. For me. For you. He didnt ask for sympathy or a medal. He asked that we live a perfect eternal life in heaven by believing and knowing Him...What a wonderful God! The sacrafice was huge, and it was all for us. I think thats wonderful!

[Guest saved*by*grace]

That is why Jesus' sacrifice, although he did not 'suffer' as much I guess as you would have like him to, was so important. He did it for us.

Joanie

I certainly would not have "liked him to" suffer more than he did...!!! Not even at all if it were possible! im sure u didnt mean it that way but i just had to add that.

As far as i see it, it doesnt matter what we think He did or didnt go through, it was bad enough and Jesus didnt HAVE to do it, He chose to, for us. For me. For you. He didnt ask for sympathy or a medal. He asked that we live a perfect eternal life in heaven by believing and knowing Him...What a wonderful God! The sacrafice was huge, and it was all for us. I think thats wonderful!

Yea, that wasn't really how I meant to put it, I was kind of referring to the 1st post of this topic when I said that.

I agree with you and how you said it. I'm not really gifted with putting my thoughts out there in just a few words and getting out all of what I want to say to. But what you said is pretty much what I meant. He gave his life for us because He wanted us to be able to be in Heaven with Him forever, and for that I praise Him every chance I get.

[bgoalie35]

TT, I would propose starting two new threads, as this one has kind of slid off into several other tangents. First, you raise a good question about Jesus' sacrifice, and whether or not he really laid down his life if he just got his life right back three days later. I think if you read back through the posts, there are some good answers mixed in there. I would add to them (or repeat in some cases):

1. Do you think Jesus knew everything that was going to happen? There are stories within the gospels that seem to point to him not knowing everything. Was part of the greatness of Jesus' sacrifice the possibility that he did it, NOT knowing how it was all going to end?

2. You do have to give some consideration to the fact that Jesus was blameless. Under this theological system of justice we have in the Bible, punishment for sin is death. You say Jesus did not really die, as he rose again three days later, so he did not serve the eternal punishment. But you should keep in mind that Jesus also did not deserve any punishment. Anything he took on was more than he deserved, no matter how light or severe the punishment.

I would suggest you restart this thread if you still feel your question has not been answered. I would also suggest you study and self-criticize your theory on the resurrection. Your theory is that Jesus was crucified and his embarassed followers made up a story about him rising again to keep their movement going. There are many problems with this theory though. I'll list just a few, and if you are interested, start a new thread and maybe everyone can discuss some of them (or others). I hope this helps, and please feel free to poke holes in my logic. I'd love to have a good discussion about it:

1. If the resurrection was made up, why did the story have women to be the first witnesses of the risen Lord? Women were not even legal witnesses in the first century, and surely the disciples could have come up with a better story than Jesus appearing to this subclass of people. Why not have him first appear to the Twelve?

2. Why is there no story of exactly how Jesus rose from the dead? No disappearing then reappearing body in the tomb, no bright light, no voice from heaven, no dramatic stand up in the tomb, move the stone, and walk out and slay the soldiers standing guard. The stories are simple, with the resurrected Jesus just "showing up".

3. Why did many of the disciples and supposed witnesses to the risen Jesus die for their belief in him? If they KNEW this was a lie, why not just abandon the cause and move on? Who would die for a lie?

4. Why did the early church make the resurrection such a central pillar of their new religion? It was certainly embarassing to claim their leader "rose from the dead". People were not stupid in this time, they knew dead people did not just get up and walk again. Note also from Acts 2 that the early preachers appealed directly to the empty tomb of Jesus. They pointed it out to everyone, that David was still in his grave, but Jesus was risen.

It is very difficult to explain the emergence of Christianity without the resurrection. It is THE best thing apologetic Christianity has going for it.