Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[DeighAnn]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The Body of Christ is a spiritual body.

`For by one Spirit we were all baptised into one Body,...` (1 Cor. 12: 13)

Yes, there is an 'unseen' brotherhood.  What does that have to do with pre trib rapture? or not going through tribulation?  

 

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Each member is placed in the Body by God.

`But now God has set the members, each one of them in the Body just as he pleased.` (1 Cor. 12: 18)

`Now you are the Body of Christ, and members individually. ` (1 Cor. 12: 27)

So we BECOME ABRAHAMS seed, and GOD has set jobs for us to do.  The body of Christ is made up of individuals, a brotherhood, of the family of God and we should all be working as one to get HIS purpose done.

Again, nothing to do with going to heaven and not suffering tribulation if of the final generation.  All are treated the SAME.  If the hand had to go through something so does the foot.  

 

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Myself and Vine Abider have proposed a split rapture.

ONE BODY, in other words not possible from the stand point of what is written.  

 

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Summing up, the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism and NOT of the earth. It is made by the very Spirit of God and has the Lord as its Head. All life and functions flow from the Head throughout the Body and it grows to maturity till the Lord will come and with His Body move to His own throne in the highest position.

but brought together as ONE for the PURPOSES OF GOD which are accomplished ON THE EARTH, the place the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN was first proclaimed

What does God want?  ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE. 


When applying just a tad bit of common-sense and factoring in we are ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP amongst wolves...

How would that be BEST ACCOMPLISHED for the flesh man upon the earth?

1.  BY REMOVING EVERYONE WHO HAS GODS' WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE and have been studying to show themselves approved, for the past 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, even 60 years plus and sending 2 witnesses to face the whole world alone

or

2.  By leaving them who have been prepared IN HIS WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE and HAVE FAITH IN HIS WORDS to endure to the end, to overcome, to stand and withstand the fiery darts of Satan.  To show themselves approved laborer's who don't allow the house to be broken into and help for the two witnesses God is sending to help as many can come to repentance before it is too late?  

 

[DeighAnn]

26 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for your posting!  If there is no mention of a pretrib rapture, what do you do with these two verses:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."  Rev 3:10

"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  Luke 21:36 (Jesus speaking about the tribulation)

How have YOU KEPT the words of God?  How have the words of God KEPT you?  They keep you in Gods will and when you are in GODS WILL, Gods Wrath doesn't come upon you, it falls upon THEM.  We have nothing to fear because HE KEEPS or guards us from temptation, making bad decisions, in Gods good graces which keeps us from evil.  

We don't worry about being 'tested' because WE have been given the answers to the test beforehand.  EXAMPLE

You are told today to go into the store you have to kneel down and give worship to some screen showing some image on it.  

The guy walking up before you, kneels down, gives worship and goes on in.  

You are next.  What do you do?  Do you or don't you?  SINCE YOU HAVE come to faith YOU KNOW what is going to happen to the guy that went in front of you all casual as hell, not a care in the world.

YOU HAVE BEEN KEPT FROM MAKING A VERY BAD DECISION.  Instead, you wait for someone coming out and see if you can work out a deal where they go back in and get your supplies for you.  You keep MAKING good decisions because the words of GOD are KEEPING YOU from Gods Wrath falling upon you.  YOU have effectively been KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION.  You have overcome and have stood and have withstood the fiery darts of Satan.  You will endure to the end and YOU WILL RECEIVE THE PROMISES.  You have been treated like EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN EVER HAS.  


When the Son of Man comes there is only going to be one way to STAND and that is if you are alive and remaining because HE IS GOING TO DESTROY those who have taken the mark of the beast.  YOU having been SEALED will have been KEPT from being TEMPTED, and therefore will be standing to be gathered by the angels when He returns.  

THEN there are those who will be BEHEADED.  Rest assure,  GOD tells you HE WILL not give you more than you can handle

AND THERE ARE THOSE OF US WHO LOOK FORWARD to THE HONOR of a trial and a death that glorifies GOD 

because in all ETERNITY there will only be this ONE TIME to ever be ALLOWED to die such a death under such circumstances.  

I call that winning the race.  BUT I say this NOT for you to have these feelings but so you know that though times may get tough, it will never be any worse than anyone else has gone through or more than you can take

and remember how Jesus looked at it 

Heb 12

1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3  For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.  Best to get as much of 'the kindling' burnt out of us before we go to stand before Him.  We have this time to get rid of as much 'ungodliness' as we possibly can and HE is here to help.  AS ANY LOVING FATHER WOULD.  

Hope this helps you to understand how I understand what is written.  









 

[Selah7]

2 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for your posting!  If there is no mention of a pretrib rapture, what do you do with these two verses:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."  Rev 3:10

"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”  Luke 21:36 (Jesus speaking about the tribulation)

Hi there, @Vine Abider Nice to meet you!

Revelation 3:10:  Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Our heavenly Father is incredibly patient with us.

What is the hour of temptation that the Philadelphia church escapes? The "hour" of temptation is the "hour" when Satan, the "Tempter," appears on earth as the false christ claiming to be the Messiah.

Does that suggest that the church will suddenly fly away and be "raptured?”  Not at all, no. It means that those who have studied and abided in God's Word have the seal of God in their minds and will not find Satan in the least bit tempting; they will not be deceived.  They will persevere (endure), wearing their full suits of gospel armor until the King of kings returns.  Glory! 

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Wow…The Christians who persevere and remain steadfast and overcome in their faith and who defend God's work and the written Word are called pillars.  Me? I want to be made one of those pillars in God's temple!       -Selah 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Selah7
added scripture

[Selah7]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In order to avoid being deceived during these end-of-the-world times—and to have the knowledge to resist the antichrist (Satan), we need to watch and pray to our Father and ask Him for wisdom—one day soon, may we hear our Lord Jesus say, "Well done, My good and faithful servant.”

Selah

[Marilyn C]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, there is an 'unseen' brotherhood.  What does that have to do with pre trib rapture? or not going through tribulation?  

 

 

Hi DeighAnn,

The point I was making is that -

`...the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism, and NOT of the earth. Thus, NOT a harvest of the earth as the others are.`

The Body of Christ is born of the Spirit of God and is not made from the earth. We have a heavenly inheritance on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

The harvest in Rev. 14 however are people of the earth. `the harvest of the earth.` (v. 15). They have an earthly inheritance. (Rev. 21: 24)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, AdHoc said:

It's great that you took so much time to show the Church a spiritual institution, and I take it as respecting me. Thank you.

But there is no correlation between the origin and nature of the Church because of the Holy Spirit and God wanting fruit. One is the mechanics of the Church and the other a "gathering of its FRUIT. And so, you did not enter into one of my proofs. I'll make a short summary again for your information.

When our Lord Jesus introduced the Church, He only connected it to two points. (i) The keys of the Kingdom and (ii) the gates of Hades. In Matthew 13 our Lord equated the Kingdom with Wheat and said that the end of the age is a harvest and the reapers where angels. In 1st Corinthians 15, the resurrection from Hades has, as its Firstfruits - Jesus. And Firstfruits is the first gathering of A Harvest. This Chapter goes on to show us been planted in death. Again is implied a harvest.

In John Chapter 12 our Lord Jesus uses the picture of a grain of Wheat for Himself. It is cast into the ground, dies and brings forth much Wheat. What good is the Wheat if it stays in the field. The Husbandman - God, wants fruit. A Harvest is implied.

In John 15 our Lord depicts Himself as the True Vine. His goal - to bring forth fruit for the Father. How is it moved from the Tree to the Father's table? Why - a Harvest!

I think I'll rest my case here. The end of the age is a harvest. the angels are reapers. the Firsfruits are carried into the Father's House. James 5:7 confirms that the coming of the Lord is a long awaited HARVEST. The general harvest is carried to the Father's Barn. There are dire consequences for NO FRUIT!

Hi Ad Hoc,

Good to discuss with you this interesting topic. Now we both agree that Jesus did say that He would build His ekklesia and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. However the disciples only knew of their ekklesia, Israel.

Remember later on Peter didn`t realise the Gentiles were included till the Holy Spirit revealed that to him. And even then Peter tried to get them to act like Jews. So, the disciples did not understand this new ekklesia. That revelation was not given till the Lord ascended and gave it to the apostle Paul much later.

What you are quoting regarding the parables in Matt. 13 are to do with Israel. The Lord Himself came to confirm those promises to Israel. (Rom. 15: 8)

The `kingdom` is God`s rule through Israel in the millennium. It is the Feast of Tabernacles, (Zech. 14: 16) where the nations come up to Jerusalem to worship the King. The King, however, is ruling from His seat of power and authority in the third heaven with His Body of believers. 

You are confusing Israel`s inheritance with our inheritance. Doing that you bring the Lord down below, whereas the Father seated Him far above all. 

regards, Marilyn.

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, there is an 'unseen' brotherhood.  What does that have to do with pre trib rapture? or not going through tribulation?  

 

So we BECOME ABRAHAMS seed, and GOD has set jobs for us to do.  The body of Christ is made up of individuals, a brotherhood, of the family of God and we should all be working as one to get HIS purpose done.

Again, nothing to do with going to heaven and not suffering tribulation if of the final generation.  All are treated the SAME.  If the hand had to go through something so does the foot.  

 

ONE BODY, in other words not possible from the stand point of what is written.  

 

but brought together as ONE for the PURPOSES OF GOD which are accomplished ON THE EARTH, the place the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN was first proclaimed

What does God want?  ALL TO COME TO REPENTANCE. 


When applying just a tad bit of common-sense and factoring in we are ACCOUNTED AS SHEEP amongst wolves...

How would that be BEST ACCOMPLISHED for the flesh man upon the earth?

1.  BY REMOVING EVERYONE WHO HAS GODS' WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE and have been studying to show themselves approved, for the past 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, even 60 years plus and sending 2 witnesses to face the whole world alone

or

2.  By leaving them who have been prepared IN HIS WISDOM and KNOWLEDGE and HAVE FAITH IN HIS WORDS to endure to the end, to overcome, to stand and withstand the fiery darts of Satan.  To show themselves approved laborer's who don't allow the house to be broken into and help for the two witnesses God is sending to help as many can come to repentance before it is too late?  

 

No, Dennis did not say that.

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Ad Hoc,

Good to discuss with you this interesting topic. Now we both agree that Jesus did say that He would build His ekklesia and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. However the disciples only knew of their ekklesia, Israel.

Remember later on Peter didn`t realise the Gentiles were included till the Holy Spirit revealed that to him. And even then Peter tried to get them to act like Jews. So, the disciples did not understand this new ekklesia. That revelation was not given till the Lord ascended and gave it to the apostle Paul much later.

What you are quoting regarding the parables in Matt. 13 are to do with Israel. The Lord Himself came to confirm those promises to Israel. (Rom. 15: 8)

The `kingdom` is God`s rule through Israel in the millennium. It is the Feast of Tabernacles, (Zech. 14: 16) where the nations come up to Jerusalem to worship the King. The King, however, is ruling from His seat of power and authority in the third heaven with His Body of believers. 

You are confusing Israel`s inheritance with our inheritance. Doing that you bring the Lord down below, whereas the Father seated Him far above all. 

regards, Marilyn.

Thanks for your view, and thanks for the chance to open Matthew 13 up. But first I must make an observation. We do not study the Bible from the disciples' eyes. We give each statement its value from a viewpoint of a completed narrative, and if it is obscure we interpret it using the same Bible.

If so, then Matthew 13 is to be understood in light of the whole New Testament. But even if you refuse that, the internal evidence demands it.
- In the lead up to Chapter 13, our Lord Jesus is accused of being an emissary of Beelzebub. The rejection of Messiah is complete and the works of the Holy Spirit are trashed. This is the unforgivable sin. Israel cannot be forgiven in this age, nor the next.
-  Our Lord Jesus in turn denies His fleshly connection with Israel by refusing His mother and  brothers and declaring His disciples His "brethren"
-  The scene of His teaching pictures His rejection of Israel. He "leaves the House". The context is His mother and brethren refused. The House can only be the "House of Israel"
-  Next, our Lord leaves the "sea shore" - Israel (Gen.22:17)
-  He teaches ONLY in parables. When asked why, He explains that it is NOT given to Israel to understand the mysteries of the kingdom
-  The "Kingdom" can only be SEEN by REBIRTH (Jn.3:3) and Israel refuse Jesus till the end of the age. Our Lord has doubly blocked their understanding.
-  Our Lord tells the parable of the Sower. It concerns four types of persons who "have the words of the kingdom sown in their hearts". This could not be Israel as they are purposefully given no understanding
- After the first four parables, our Lord Jesus retires to another "House". Which House is not said, but we can tell. It is a House where only Jesus and His disciples are and where His disciples understand the parables. It must be the Church - the House of the living God, ground and pillar of the truth (1st Tim.3:15)
-  A further three Parables are taught by Jesus, making seven altogether. The parables ALL depict events IN THIS AGE. There is no prophecy or predictions for Israel in their Messianic Kingdom.

I propose that the evidence shows how the Kingdom OF the Heavens (not the Kingdom IN the heavens) develops in this age. The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven MUST be on EARTH because Peter and company are in it and have the keys (Matt.16:19) Our Lord is tempted with the Kingdoms of this earth. They become His at the end of the age (Rev.11:15). His throne is set on earth where He judges ALL Nations (Matt.25:31-46) . Our Lord Jesus prayed for God's Kingdom TO COME (to earth). This age ends with the earth in the hands of God (Dan.2). The next age ends with God defeating Magog who "came up against Jerusalem". The following ages have New Jerusalem RULING the earth.

The evidence is overwhelming. Matthew 13 is for the "DISCIPLES of Jesus". Israel is purposely blinded. The Kingdom OF heaven is God's rules enforced ON EARTH. The councils of God are immutable and He said "Let us make man ... for dominion over all the earth" (Gen.1:26-28)

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Thanks for your view, and thanks for the chance to open Matthew 13 up. But first I must make an observation. We do not study the Bible from the disciples' eyes. We give each statement its value from a viewpoint of a completed narrative, and if it is obscure we interpret it using the same Bible.

If so, then Matthew 13 is to be understood in light of the whole New Testament. But even if you refuse that, the internal evidence demands it.
- In the lead up to Chapter 13, our Lord Jesus is accused of being an emissary of Beelzebub. The rejection of Messiah is complete and the works of the Holy Spirit are trashed. This is the unforgivable sin. Israel cannot be forgiven in this age, nor the next.
-  Our Lord Jesus in turn denies His fleshly connection with Israel by refusing His mother and  brothers and declaring His disciples His "brethren"
-  The scene of His teaching pictures His rejection of Israel. He "leaves the House". The context is His mother and brethren refused. The House can only be the "House of Israel"
-  Next, our Lord leaves the "sea shore" - Israel (Gen.22:17)
-  He teaches ONLY in parables. When asked why, He explains that it is NOT given to Israel to understand the mysteries of the kingdom
-  The "Kingdom" can only be SEEN by REBIRTH (Jn.3:3) and Israel refuse Jesus till the end of the age. Our Lord has doubly blocked their understanding.
-  Our Lord tells the parable of the Sower. It concerns four types of persons who "have the words of the kingdom sown in their hearts". This could not be Israel as they are purposefully given no understanding
- After the first four parables, our Lord Jesus retires to another "House". Which House is not said, but we can tell. It is a House where only Jesus and His disciples are and where His disciples understand the parables. It must be the Church - the House of the living God, ground and pillar of the truth (1st Tim.3:15)
-  A further three Parables are taught by Jesus, making seven altogether. The parables ALL depict events IN THIS AGE. There is no prophecy or predictions for Israel in their Messianic Kingdom.

I propose that the evidence shows how the Kingdom OF the Heavens (not the Kingdom IN the heavens) develops in this age. The Kingdom (out) OF Heaven MUST be on EARTH because Peter and company are in it and have the keys (Matt.16:19) Our Lord is tempted with the Kingdoms of this earth. They become His at the end of the age (Rev.11:15). His throne is set on earth where He judges ALL Nations (Matt.25:31-46) . Our Lord Jesus prayed for God's Kingdom TO COME (to earth). This age ends with the earth in the hands of God (Dan.2). The next age ends with God defeating Magog who "came up against Jerusalem". The following ages have New Jerusalem RULING the earth.

The evidence is overwhelming. Matthew 13 is for the "DISCIPLES of Jesus". Israel is purposely blinded. The Kingdom OF heaven is God's rules enforced ON EARTH. The councils of God are immutable and He said "Let us make man ... for dominion over all the earth" (Gen.1:26-28)

Hi Ad Hoc,

I so agree with you concerning the last part of your comments to do with the kingdom/rulership of heaven on the earth. And yes, man was given dominion of the earth. And we see that fulfilled in Rev. 21: 24 where the nations of the saved are walking in the light of the New Jerusalem.

However, you do err when you think that God has cast away Israel. God in His foreknowledge knew that the people of Israel would rebel and crucify His Son. (Are we any better?) Thus, it will be of God`s Holy Spirit, (as was for us) that God will turn Israel again to Himself.

God did not spend over a thousand years working with Israel expecting them to of themselves follow Him. We know that God was revealing man`s sin, (by the 10 commandments) and revealing the Saviour through a multitude of prophecies, symbols and types.  

As you said once, even the heavens are not pure, (Job 15: 15) and so there are more things to be restored than just the earth and its rulership.

regards, Marilyn.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi DeighAnn,

The point I was making is that -

`...the Body of Christ is a spiritual organism, and NOT of the earth. Thus, NOT a harvest of the earth as the others are.`

The Body of Christ is born of the Spirit of God and is not made from the earth. We have a heavenly inheritance on the Lord`s own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)

The harvest in Rev. 14 however are people of the earth. `the harvest of the earth.` (v. 15). They have an earthly inheritance. (Rev. 21: 24)

Marilyn.

I think Jesus would disagree as He said

35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.


Surely there is no difference between us being here on the earth now and being on the earth when Satan and the angels are cast out. 

AND the most likely place the BODY OF CHRIST would be needed when they are IS HERE ON EARTH as there is NO REASON at that point to have the body of Christ in heaven. 

NOW if there were a 'rapture' to GO FIGHT THE WAR in heaven I would be more inclined to go that way but THERE IS NO REASON to leave where the trouble is coming to to go to the place the trouble has just been eradicated from.   

I JUST don't see ANY PURPOSE of God being served and tons of 'people' being served who SHOULD BE in fact DOING THE SERVING.