Could there be Multiple Raptures?

[seeking the lost]

22 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your second section is very good. But if you take the argument to its logical end, you annul the rapture altogether. If the Remnant of Israel need a Seal to survive, and this argument is valid for the Church, then (i) where are the Church sealed, and (ii) why is the rapture even taught? But there is an even more glorious reason for the rapture as an escape. It is God the Father's way of honoring the salvation wrought by Jesus. Chapter 5:8-10 read;

There is a rapture and it is dynamically connected to the resurrection.  Thes two events cannot be unlinked.  Our theology, or what we think of scripture cannot alter that fact.  It is imperative that the dead in Christ rise first, that is the last day resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 6.

Those who are alive and remain are the ones that are caught up and changed.  This is at the end of the thousand years during the time that satan is loosed.   Many will be deceived and will not be caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye.  This is the last day.  This is the time of Judgement when all will stand before Him and sheep and goats are separated.

[seeking the lost]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Your argument is valid, and I respect it. Therefore I ask just one question: Is there strong evidence that the rapture is an harvest?

At the end of the growing season there is a harvest. But the Bible, and nature, cause it to be divided into an early harvest of fruit that is ripe early, a general harvest as the bulk of the crop has had time to be under more heat an dryness, and a harvest of what is left lying on the field. No farmer will harvest that which is not ripe, and no farmer will wait after the crop is ripe.

Romans Chapter 1:20 says that the things of God are seen in the creation. Thus, ONE harvest with THREE in-gatherings is God's way. And God said in Matthew 13:39 that the end of the age would be a harvest. This is not a trick question because;
-  You and I both know Christians who are less diligent and dedicated than others

-  You and I both know that there are at lest four scriptures that plainly state that, in context of the Great Tribulation, there is an escape to be earned

-  You and I both know that there are at least four scriptures that show Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation

At the time when the day of the Lord begins, there will not be the opportunity to change or become better.  Consider the parable of the virgins.  The cry rang out, "the bridegroom is coming", The foolish virgins could not be included because they were not ready.  They, the foolish virgins, knock on the door but it is not opened to them.  Whatever they do at this time will make no difference.  I never knew you are words that no one will want to hear.

That day is delayed because the Father is not willing that any should perish.

[Vine Abider]

19 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

At the time when the day of the Lord begins, there will not be the opportunity to change or become better.  Consider the parable of the virgins.  The cry rang out, "the bridegroom is coming", The foolish virgins could not be included because they were not ready.  They, the foolish virgins, knock on the door but it is not opened to them.  Whatever they do at this time will make no difference.  I never knew you are words that no one will want to hear.

That day is delayed because the Father is not willing that any should perish.

Yes and amen!  I keep thinking there is a number that the Father knows, of those who would be saved.  And when that number is fulfilled, then it's time to start quickly wrapping up the age.

And regarding the unwise ones, I've liked this explanation: When He says, "I never knew you," to the foolish virgins, it's because they never let the Shephard know them in a close and ongoing way, like a friend. (certainly not a loss of salvation)

[Alive]

1 minute ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes and amen!  I keep thinking there is a number that the Father knows, of those who would be saved.  And when that number is fulfilled, then it's time to start quickly wrapping up the age.

And regarding the unwise ones, I've liked this explanation: When He says, "I never knew you," to the foolish virgins, it's because they never let the Shephard know them in a close and ongoing way, like a friend. (certainly not a loss of salvation)

I think that is what the 153 fishes is about…a fixed number and then to hear a shout.

[AdHoc]

2 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

There is a rapture and it is dynamically connected to the resurrection.  Thes two events cannot be unlinked.  Our theology, or what we think of scripture cannot alter that fact.  It is imperative that the dead in Christ rise first, that is the last day resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 6.

Those who are alive and remain are the ones that are caught up and changed.  This is at the end of the thousand years during the time that satan is loosed.   Many will be deceived and will not be caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye.  This is the last day.  This is the time of Judgement when all will stand before Him and sheep and goats are separated.

Without arguing I'll give my understanding. I'll try to keep it short.

The disciples asked our Lord Jesus three questions in Matthew 24:3; (i) When will these things be, (ii) what will be the sign of His Coming, and (iii) what will be the sign of the end of the age (aion- Gk.). The end of this age ends with the Second Coming of Jesus. The end of the age is also the end of Gentile Government (Rev.11:15). The end of the age is also the end of Israel's chastisement. 

For two thousand years, Jesus, Son of God has been preached. At the end of the age an antagonist to Jesus Christ is presented - The Beast, a Gentile king. The peoples of the earth can choose ... Jesus or the Beast. They choose the Beast, and Israel allow him to be set in the Holy of Holies of a third Temple in Jerusalem. God has had enough. He unleashes a set of disasters on earth to chastise mankind for their choice, and for their ungodliness. The question is, there are millions of Christian on earth. What will become of them in this Great Tribulation.

God prepares an escape for His People. It is based on Christ's substitutionary death. Christians can escape by being morally ready for the appearance of their heavenly Fiancé - Jesus. Added to this, God has raised up the Church to rule the earth when the governmental change takes place. So the dead Christians must face a judgment as well as the living. Since the whole earth is judged, just like the days of Noah, makes the escape to the sky. This achieves two things for Him.
(i) It is on the way that Jesus takes from heaven to the earth. Jesus must just pause His downward journey to judge Christians
(ii) It is safe from the earth and what befalls it

At a time known only to the Father, the dead Christians RISE from Hades and receive their new bodies on the surface of the earth. There they meet the still living Christians. These have to get their new bodies as well and so are "changed" in a moment of time. Then "TOGETHER" they are grabbed by angels and translated into the clouds.

If you were catching a train at Grand Central, New York City, and it was on platform 10, you would be there a few minutes earlier. If you didn't care if you missed it or not, you would be in the restaurant or somewhere else. So it is with the Rapture. If you care to be there, and the departure time is UNKNOWN, you will camp on platform 10 so as not to miss the train. God has told us to maintain a state of readiness your whole life. that way, He gets a holy watchful people. If you are somewhere else MORALLY you will not be part of the gathering by angels. You were NOT on moral platform 10.

But God has another incentive. God has no babysitters on this train from platform 10. No babies can travel alone. So only mature people may get on the train at platform 10. And if a bay has to travel, it mus be accompanied by a mature person. God has a trillion angels who help with the boarding. They are instructed not to board a baby alone.

So is the end of the age. If you are a mature Christian, or a martyr, and you have an everyday intimate relationship with Jesus, you will not miss the journey. If you are an immature and uncaring Christian  you will miss the train / rapture. God needs to gather you to Jesus to be judged, so He will send a later train, but in the meantime you must sleep on a hard bench in Grand Central.

The following make a PROMISE of escape in the face of what is about to happen on the whole earth; Luke 21:35-36, Philippians 3:10-14*, 1st Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 3:10.

The following show Christians on earth while the Beast is reigning; Revelation 7:9-17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13:7, Revelation 18:4

* The correct translation is not "High calling" as in the KJV. It is "Upward call" as the NKJV renders it.

[AdHoc]

39 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

At the time when the day of the Lord begins, there will not be the opportunity to change or become better.  Consider the parable of the virgins.  The cry rang out, "the bridegroom is coming", The foolish virgins could not be included because they were not ready.  They, the foolish virgins, knock on the door but it is not opened to them.  Whatever they do at this time will make no difference.  I never knew you are words that no one will want to hear.

That day is delayed because the Father is not willing that any should perish.

If you count the required oil as "change for the better", the the foolish Virgins go and buy and return with the required extra oil. But they are locked out of the Wedding Feast. They are not sent to the Lake of Fire. The reason given for not opening the Wedding Feast door is now NOT oil. It is that the Groom never "knew" them. In the Greek there are different words with different meanings for "know". In this case, the word is "oida" which means; "know by sight" or "know by perception".

The reason given here is that the foolish Virgins not only didn't know that oil must be BOUGHT, but they spent no time in the presence of the Lord Groom. He didn't know them by sight. But unlike the Lake of Fire, the Wedding Feast last 1,000 years because verse 1 says it was "LIKE the Kingdom". So the foolish Virgins both get a the required oil and are chastised for 1,000 years. After this, God makes all things NEW and former things are passed away. The Virgins, who were espoused to Christ in 2nd Corinthians 11:2, NEVER lose their title of "Virgin". After 1,000 years they are in a position to be the WIFE of Christ. Hebrews 12 tells us that those chastised are "exercised" by it unto righteousness.

This is the normal tactic of the Lord. Israel are His people. Their chastisement started in about 730 BC and will end sometime after 2000 AD. That is, about 2,700 years of chastisement. God destroys His enemies but chastises His People.

[AdHoc]

31 minutes ago, Alive said:

I think that is what the 153 fishes is about…a fixed number and then to hear a shout.

Aaaaahhhh Brother ... Sharp! The parable gives a number. If we interpret scripture with scripture, we find this number only once again. It was the number, in thousands, of gentile sojourners in Solomon's Kingdom. This is to show us that the parable shows the Gentile future of blessing - seeing as the "Greater Solomon" will be reigning.

2nd Chronicles. 2:17

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Aaaaahhhh Brother ... Sharp! The parable gives a number. If we interpret scripture with scripture, we find this number only once again. It was the number, in thousands, of gentile sojourners in Solomon's Kingdom. This is to show us that the parable shows the Gentile future of blessing - seeing as the "Greater Solomon" will be reigning.

2nd Chronicles. 2:17

Not really sharp…it was a thing we discussed decades ago when gathering. It rang true in me.

[seeking the lost]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Without arguing I'll give my understanding. I'll try to keep it short.

The disciples asked our Lord Jesus three questions in Matthew 24:3; (i) When will these things be, (ii) what will be the sign of His Coming, and (iii) what will be the sign of the end of the age (aion- Gk.). The end of this age ends with the Second Coming of Jesus. The end of the age is also the end of Gentile Government (Rev.11:15). The end of the age is also the end of Israel's chastisement. 

You are working way too hard. It is better to just stick with the simplicity of the revelation of Jesus given to John.  The message was to prepare for this which is coming.  The message is not that this is what you will miss if you are good enough.

 

[Vine Abider]

39 minutes ago, seeking the lost said:

You are working way too hard. It is better to just stick with the simplicity of the revelation of Jesus given to John.  The message was to prepare for this which is coming.  The message is not that this is what you will miss if you are good enough.

 

And we can have all knowledge and still miss the main point!  (be ready & love God/one another)