not an echo Posted November 20, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted November 20, 2022 On 11/17/2022 at 9:59 PM, Michael37 said: On 11/17/2022 at 9:11 PM, not an echo said: Reserved... Hi @not an echo I think there is an echo. Hey Michael, Well, I think I'm finally over my case of echoes. Whew! Now, if only my eyes weren't so blurry from looking at this computer screen so long today! Hopefully nothing that a little rest and some shuteye won't help... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 25, 2022 On 11/17/2022 at 9:11 PM, not an echo said: The following is one of my charts, which illustrates the basics of what I have shown in my opening posts. Note my indications of when the TRUMP OF GOD is sounded, versus when the 7TH TRUMPET will be sounded... I don't believe Jesus will return to Armageddon at the close of the Week. Revelation shows us chapters 17, 18, and part of 19 that will take place after the Week but before Christ descends. You have correctly shown the start of the Day immediately after the rapture. "Stage Reset" may be only Ten days - the ten days of Awe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 25, 2022 On 11/17/2022 at 9:09 PM, not an echo said: Hello all, Near the closing of Revelation chapter 11, we find John's account of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and a brief overview of what this period entails. Evidences that I will be showing support that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the beginning of the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, but also, that it heralds the period in which complete closure for this world will occur. In other words, what the 7th Trumpet heralds is huge---very huge! Let's begin with a look at the brief overview we are given of this period, again, from Revelation 11 (and note the bold)... 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. What I have put in bold concerns the Last Judgment, which we find the account of much later, in Revelation 20:11-15. This is the last thing we find revealed to us in Scripture before what I like to refer to as that Happily Ever After part for God and all of His saved---a primary focus of chapters 21-22. What we find between the 7th Trumpet overview and these last two chapters concerns the whole of the period that the 7th Trumpet heralds. In other words, everything in chapters 12-20 is of this period and expounds it. Following is an outline of this period... DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET (REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED A. Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6) B. The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9) C. Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17) (REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED A. Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10) B. Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14) C. Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18) (REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED A. Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7) B. The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20) (REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED A. Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4) B. Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8) (REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED A. Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1) B. The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21) (REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED A. John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6) B. The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18) (REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED A. The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19) B. The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24) (REV. 19)---THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST DISCLOSED A. Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Advent of Christ (vss. 1-16) B. The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21) (REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND THE LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED A. The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) B. The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15) In my upcoming posts, we will be looking further at the period of the 7th Trumpet and some interesting truths that come to light when the above is understood. This thread is one of many that I have in this forum that pertains to a different understanding I have come to concerning the timing of the rapture relative to other events. Here is a link to the master thread of my understanding(s) titled, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/). In the second post of that thread, I give a running list of the threads I have started which pertain to this subject. I don't believe any angel has the lung capacity to sound a trumpet for 3 1/2 years! ;-) Therefore, I don't believe the last 3 1/2 years would call be "7th trumpet" time. If anything, it is Christ reigning as "King of the earth" time. Many people shout in disagreement, but it seems, if we leave things in their context, that one of the first things Jesus will do after He becomes King of the Earth, is delegate 42 months of authority to the Beast. I have had people say, "GOD ALONE" is exalted during the Day of the Lord. My answer is, who is the exalted one: the one who delegates 42 months, or the delegatee that gets 42 months delegated to him? Who is the one thrown into the lake of fire? 11:2 42 month countdown from the midpoint to the end. 11:3 1260 day countdown from the midpoint to the end. (7th trumpet sounds to mark the midpoint) 12:6 1260 day countdown from the midpoint to the end. How can this make sense? I can see only one way. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.) 14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. This way, verses 11:2 and 11:3 are just days before the midpoint, then the 7th trumpet sounds the mark the exact midpoint, then 12:6 is only seconds after the midpoint. I have seen some people solve this problem by beginning this parenthesis in 10:1. That would put the 42 months and 1260 days inside a parenthesis. Not good. I think verses 4-14 is God taking John down a side journey outside of the chronology ( a parenthesis) to show John what will happen to the Two Witnesses near the end of the week. I see all five countdowns as counting down parallel to each other during chapters 13-16. I believe the Day begins at the 6th seal, the WEEK begins at the 7th seal and will end at the 7th vial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted November 25, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 25, 2022 Why does it matter whether or not the trumpets are the same? God has given us His Word as the revelation of His plan of redemption, and that plan covers everything from creation to the new creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 On 11/25/2022 at 2:45 PM, iamlamad said: On 11/17/2022 at 9:11 PM, not an echo said: The following is one of my charts, which illustrates the basics of what I have shown in my opening posts. Note my indications of when the TRUMP OF GOD is sounded, versus when the 7TH TRUMPET will be sounded... I don't believe Jesus will return to Armageddon at the close of the Week. Revelation shows us chapters 17, 18, and part of 19 that will take place after the Week but before Christ descends. You have correctly shown the start of the Day immediately after the rapture. "Stage Reset" may be only Ten days - the ten days of Awe. Hello iamlamad, In the exposition of the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet, this is said of the beast in Revelation 13... 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him TO CONTINUE forty and two months. This same time frame is spoken of by years ("times") in 12:14 and by days in 12:6. It is partly because of the exactness of these combined references that I hold that Christ's Second Advent will mark the end day of Daniel's 70th Week. In other words, the beast will be allowed to continue the prophesied last 3-1/2 years (completing the 70th Week) and not a single day longer. As far as what is shown in "chapters 17, 18, and part of 19" concerning mystery Babylon and the great whore, note the "one hour" judgment that is repeatedly spoken of (17:12; 18:10, 17, 19). I can see this "one hour" judgment occurring the same day as the Battle of Armageddon. Concerning your last sentence, what are you calling "the ten days of Awe"? My position is that after the rapture (6th Seal) and the sounding of the first four trumpets, the beast will begin his rise to power with the sounding of the 5th Trumpet (e.g., Rev. 9:1-2/11:7). During this period, at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) will transpire before the actual beginning of Daniel's 70th Week. This five months will allow conditions on the earth to stabilize somewhat from the preceding cataclysms (6th Seal, and 1st-4th trumpets), facilitating the beast's rise to power and the rebuilding of the temple. When the world's stage is fully readied for the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week is evidenced by the "little book open" seen in Revelation 10, which is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10). Then, the first (and major) evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having actually begun show up (Rev. 11:1-3) and continue to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 (edited) On 11/25/2022 at 3:02 PM, iamlamad said: On 11/17/2022 at 9:09 PM, not an echo said: Hello all, Near the closing of Revelation chapter 11, we find John's account of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and a brief overview of what this period entails. Evidences that I will be showing support that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the beginning of the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, but also, that it heralds the period in which complete closure for this world will occur. In other words, what the 7th Trumpet heralds is huge---very huge! Let's begin with a look at the brief overview we are given of this period, again, from Revelation 11 (and note the bold)... 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give Thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in Heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. What I have put in bold concerns the Last Judgment, which we find the account of much later, in Revelation 20:11-15. This is the last thing we find revealed to us in Scripture before what I like to refer to as that Happily Ever After part for God and all of His saved---a primary focus of chapters 21-22. What we find between the 7th Trumpet overview and these last two chapters concerns the whole of the period that the 7th Trumpet heralds. In other words, everything in chapters 12-20 is of this period and expounds it. Following is an outline of this period... DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET (REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED A. Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6) B. The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9) C. Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17) (REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED A. Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10) B. Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14) C. Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18) (REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED A. Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7) B. The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20) (REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED A. Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4) B. Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8) (REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED A. Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1) B. The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21) (REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED A. John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6) B. The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18) (REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED A. The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19) B. The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24) (REV. 19)---THE SECOND ADVENT OF CHRIST DISCLOSED A. Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Advent of Christ (vss. 1-16) B. The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21) (REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND THE LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED A. The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) B. The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15) In my upcoming posts, we will be looking further at the period of the 7th Trumpet and some interesting truths that come to light when the above is understood. This thread is one of many that I have in this forum that pertains to a different understanding I have come to concerning the timing of the rapture relative to other events. Here is a link to the master thread of my understanding(s) titled, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/). In the second post of that thread, I give a running list of the threads I have started which pertain to this subject. I don't believe any angel has the lung capacity to sound a trumpet for 3 1/2 years! ;-) Therefore, I don't believe the last 3 1/2 years would call be "7th trumpet" time. If anything, it is Christ reigning as "King of the earth" time. More than anything, my position is simply that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds this period. For ease of understanding, I have come to refer to it as I do, since it entails through to "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18) or the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). But, I can also certainly plug into what you are saying concerning it being "Christ reigning as 'King of the earth' time"! On 11/25/2022 at 3:02 PM, iamlamad said: I believe the Day begins at the 6th seal, the WEEK begins at the 7th seal and will end at the 7th vial. Of the rest of your post, I felt a note clarifying my position on this would best serve our discussion for now. Concerning "the Day" (i.e., the Day of the Lord), my position is that both the 6th and 7th seals will be opened the same day, and that it is on this day that the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will commence. I hope you will consider all my posts in my thread, A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/). Concerning "the WEEK" (i.e., Daniel's 70th Week), my position is that it does not begin until the other book, the "little book" that John sees in Revelation 10 is shown to be "open" (vs. 2)---which is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10). Just think of fitting puzzle pieces together---only these are prophetic puzzle pieces! Edited February 5, 2023 by not an echo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 On 11/25/2022 at 3:26 PM, missmuffet said: Why does it matter whether or not the trumpets are the same? God has given us His Word as the revelation of His plan of redemption, and that plan covers everything from creation to the new creation. Hello missmuffet, This thread is kind of a companion to my thread, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/). On my part, and in answer to your question, when we differentiate between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, much in Scripture and The Revelation comes better into focus and many interesting truths are more easily seen---especially the truth of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2022 9 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello missmuffet, This thread is kind of a companion to my thread, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/). On my part, and in answer to your question, when we differentiate between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, much in Scripture and The Revelation comes better into focus and many interesting truths are more easily seen---especially the truth of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture of the Church. I think what you are saying is, one error in understanding Revelation leads to many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2022 11 hours ago, not an echo said: More than anything, my position is simply that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds this period. For ease of understanding, I have come to refer to it as I do, since it entails through to "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18), or the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15). But, I can also certainly plug into what you are saying concerning it being "Christ reigning as 'King of the earth' time"! I think you missed something. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying... the nations were angry, thy wrath is come, the time of the dead, that they should be judged, that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Keep in mind, these are all Aorist verbs—not inflected to show any tense at all. God's wrath began earlier, and is continuing here. The judgment of some of the dead will not take place until after the 1000 years. The rewards will be seen in Revelation 20: people seen judging. The destruction of the sinners started with the 1/3 killed and will continue. What they SAID was a prophecy of past, present and FUTURE events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted November 29, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.81 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 29, 2022 14 hours ago, not an echo said: Hello missmuffet, This thread is kind of a companion to my thread, Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet? (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/264038-is-the-trump-of-god-the-seventh-trumpet/). On my part, and in answer to your question, when we differentiate between the Trump of God and the 7th Trumpet, much in Scripture and The Revelation comes better into focus and many interesting truths are more easily seen---especially the truth of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture of the Church. God is going to do what He is going to do. No changing it. We can have all kind of speculations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpg.35d0ec5c4c08d23e9c14f70aee4a9515.jpg)
Recommended Posts