The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[farouk]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Ha! I remain astounded at what people miss in the scriptures.

True............. You're right, @iamlamad....

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ha! I remain astounded at what people miss in the scriptures.

Don't miss this:

Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Michael37 said:

Don't miss this:

Rev 14:18  And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
 

I see this is HIGHLY symbolic and also prophetic. This harvest is looking forward to the battle of Armageddon, in my opinion.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The scriptures depict a pre-trib rapture.

 

Nope. There is no explicit timing for pretrib like there is for post trib/prewrath.

No where is a large group taken pretrib depicted in scripture, it's only a group that comes from out of GT or a group that faced the beast.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Chapter 12 is only seconds after the midpoint division of the week. (The fleeing in 12:6) Therefore the remnant can only be explained by a rapture before the midpoint of the week.

You don't have it down to seconds, c'mon man!

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you imagine the 144,000 endure God's wrath?

No.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why? Millions of people today THINK they are OK with God. When they find out they had to be born again to make the rapture that they just missed, first they will be very angry with their spiritual leaders, then at them selves. Many of them will turn to God then. Some won't.  Perhaps some who never went to church will turn to God. That explains the remnant. 

So if the messengers lied to them then they will immediately turn to the true leader? Interesting. You could be right, but in the experience of the entire history of the world it never works that way.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of Course the Holy Spirit will be around!  Perhaps SOME of the remnant will be post-trib and pre-wrath believers that were not expecting Christ to come at any time. These people will be able to teach the others.

Ah! So being taken up in the rapture depends on doctrine and not faith in God and Jesus. 

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

That phrase is for the just-raptured church: perhaps 50 generations of believers at one place at one time!

I think maybe you have the pretrib doctrine a little messed up. Or maybe you have your own take on the doctrine. It's probably that. 

 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Nope. There is no explicit timing for pretrib like there is for post trib/prewrath.

No where is a large group taken pretrib depicted in scripture, it's only a group that comes from out of GT or a group that faced the beast.

I beg to differ.

Paul sets the time of the rapture as just before wrath. ( I believe actually as the trigger for the start of wrath.)

If we look on Revelation's timeline, wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture then, if we believe Paul, will come just before the 6th seal is opened.

For the first confirmation, seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age and they were told that they must wait for judgment into the very last martyr is killed as they were killed. I puzzled over that and bugged God about it for some time. I believe "killed as they were" means killed as a church age martyr (not a 70th week martyr: two different groups). 

What will cause a certain martyr to be the final church age martyr? Of course, the end of the church age. AT the pre-trib rapture (the "trib" starts with the 7th seal) the church age will end and the Day of the Lord will begin. So God has been waiting all this time for the final church age martyr, or the full number of martyrs. He has also been waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to have come in.

Therefore, according to the 5th seal, the rapture must come after it. It must come before the 6th seal that starts wrath. That pinpoints the time of the rapture to just before the 6th seal start of wrath.

As the second confirmation, John then saw the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal was opened. 

Why is that large group the just-raptured church?

First because of the TIMING: they were seen in heaven on John's timeline before John has started the 70th week, much less arrived at the abomination, where the days of GT Jesus spoke of will come. Many won't believe it, but this point is very significant.

Second, no other group mentioned in Revelation would come close to the vast number of the church—perhaps 50 generations of believers in one place at one time, plus, probably, all the children in the world at the time of the rapture. I am convinced this is going to be several billion people. Therefore, just the size of this crowd, too large to number, tells me it is the church. No other group mentioned in Revelation would be such a large group.

Third, the description  fits the church perfectly. That is, all but two words. When one understands, those two words, "great tribulation" also fits the church.

When John was told who they were, and people read what John wrote, they are expecting to read how this large group suddenly got from earth to heaven. But that is NOT what John was told. Rather, he was told how each member of this group joined the group: they washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. In other words, they got born again. In other words, they LEFT a life of tribulation, on a one way trip to hell, made an about face, and left that life of tribulation - being away from God, living in darkness, with no hope.

I believe God was thinking of the combined tribulations of each member of this large group taken together: billions of people, each with a life of tribulation added together, would, indeed, be MEGA tribulation.

 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Nope. There is no explicit timing for pretrib like there is for post trib/prewrath.

Pre-wrath as taught by Rosenthal and Van Kampen comes exactly where I state it - just before wrath. Van Kampen wrote in his book these would be "back-to-back events: rapture / wrath.

Where they went off on a tangent is imagining the DAy of the Lord starting somewhere in the middle of the last half of the week. John starts the DAY before He starts the WEEK.

John begins the Day of the Lord, BEFORE He starts the 70th week.
Since the rapture will come before the DAY, then the rapture comes before the Week, which is why millions of people believe in the pretrib rapture.

Always remember, in counting, 6 comes before 7.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to move the 6th seal anywhere else in Revelation or anywhere else on a timeline than where it is, one of the seals sealing the BOOK. Since the book contains the 70th week, it is impossible the 6th seal be inside the Week.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

You don't have it down to seconds, c'mon man!

If YOU lived in Judea, and you knew what Jesus said, how long would it take you to begin to run after seeing the abomination?

I believe some will begin to run within seconds. They know they have no time to go home and get their coat.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Ah! So being taken up in the rapture depends on doctrine and not faith in God and Jesus. 

I think maybe you have the pretrib doctrine a little messed up. Or maybe you have your own take on the doctrine. It's probably that. 

 

I think everything we get from God we get by FAITH. It is heaven's medium of exchange. We are born again by grace through faith.

Do YOU believe Jesus could come TONIGHT?

You are right. I know as well as all post-tribbers and pre-wrathers that the rapture is NOT in Revelation 4:1. That was John being caught up around 95 AD. Pre-trib needs to catch up on that. I am not holding my breath.

It seems most all end time "camps" imagine the 70th week will begin in Revelation at the first seal. That is another area where most people need to catch up. God marked the 70th week with sevens: the seventh seal opens the week (by allowing the BOOK to be opened; the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th bowl ends the week.

I got my doctrine from meditating on the scriptures, praying MUCH in the Holy Spirit and simply waiting for God to teach. I probably read Revelation a hundred times while I was waiting.  I told Him, when He pushed me into studying Revelation, that I would come with an empty slate, and if I was to know anything, He would have to teach me. Therefore, as I read and read and read, I did not try to figure out meaning: I was just depositing it in my spirit for God to draw on to teach me.  And teach me He did! This is how I came to believe what I believe.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I beg to differ.

Paul sets the time of the rapture as just before wrath. ( I believe actually as the trigger for the start of wrath.)

Yes. But so many include the entire 7 years of the last week as wrath when it's only a short time span after the A of D, after GT. Wrath is not GT but only occur at the 7th trump when Jesus arrives.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If we look on Revelation's timeline, wrath begins at the 6th seal. The rapture then, if we believe Paul, will come just before the 6th seal is opened.

Yes. Well into the 6th or 7th year of the end of the age. Possibly even very close to the end, maybe months. Wrath is not the entire last 7 years.

 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For the first confirmation, seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age and they were told that they must wait for judgment into the very last martyr is killed as they were killed. I puzzled over that and bugged God about it for some time. I believe "killed as they were" means killed as a church age martyr (not a 70th week martyr: two different groups). 

What will cause a certain martyr to be the final church age martyr? Of course, the end of the church age. AT the pre-trib rapture (the "trib" starts with the 7th seal) the church age will end and the Day of the Lord will begin. So God has been waiting all this time for the final church age martyr, or the full number of martyrs. He has also been waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to have come in.

Yet scripture says, "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

So this isn't everyone throughout the 'church age' but only those who faced the beast at the end of the age.

"So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; " and Jesus said the GT only begins after the A of D. So no, it's not a 2000 year time span.

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Therefore, according to the 5th seal, the rapture must come after it. It must come before the 6th seal that starts wrath. That pinpoints the time of the rapture to just before the 6th seal start of wrath.

Yes. But relation to other prophesied events the 6th seal of Jesus sign and arrival only comes after GT which only begins after the A of D is set up. 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As the second confirmation, John then saw the just raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal was opened. 

Why is that large group the just-raptured church?

First because of the TIMING: they were seen in heaven on John's timeline before John has started the 70th week, much less arrived at the abomination, where the days of GT Jesus spoke of will come. Many won't believe it, but this point is very significant.

False. Others have tried this as well. There is no historical marker in time where the 70th week begins. All we see is the event of the A of D preceding GT. 

The 6th seal is Jesus arrival and the beginning of wrath. This only occurs after the GT as Jesus said in Matt 24. You are saying that Jesus will arrive and wrath will begin even before the last week begins. 

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Second, no other group mentioned in Revelation would come close to the vast number of the church—perhaps 50 generations of believers in one place at one time, plus, probably, all the children in the world at the time of the rapture. I am convinced this is going to be several billion people. Therefore, just the size of this crowd, too large to number, tells me it is the church. No other group mentioned in Revelation would be such a large group.

Third, the description  fits the church perfectly. That is, all but two words. When one understands, those two words, "great tribulation" also fits the church.

When John was told who they were, and people read what John wrote, they are expecting to read how this large group suddenly got from earth to heaven. But that is NOT what John was told. Rather, he was told how each member of this group joined the group: they washed their robes in the blood of Jesus. In other words, they got born again. In other words, they LEFT a life of tribulation, on a one way trip to hell, made an about face, and left that life of tribulation - being away from God, living in darkness, with no hope.

I believe God was thinking of the combined tribulations of each member of this large group taken together: billions of people, each with a life of tribulation added together, would, indeed, be MEGA tribulation.

 

Okay. You go ahead and believe that. 

We'll see. 

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

 

Quote

 

  22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I beg to differ.

Paul sets the time of the rapture as just before wrath. ( I believe actually as the trigger for the start of wrath.)

 

Yes. But so many include the entire 7 years of the last week as wrath when it's only a short time span after the A of D, after GT. Wrath is not GT but only occur at the 7th trump when Jesus arrives.

Yes. Well into the 6th or 7th year of the end of the age. Possibly even very close to the end, maybe months. Wrath is not the entire last 7 years.

WHY do "so many include the entire 7 years of the last week as wrath?" 

John begins the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal, then starts the 70th week at the 7th seal. This puts the Week, inside the DAY, so that every judgment of the 70th week will come with His wrath.

I'll say it another way: since God begins His wrath BEFORE the 70th week, of course the entire week will come with His wrath.

Imagining the start of the Day of His wrath some unknown time after the A of D, is nothing but myth. It is false doctrine with no basis of support in the word of God. 
God starts the DAY before He starts the WEEK. 

Start of the DAY: at the 6th seal.
Start of the WEEK: at the 7th seal.

Six always comes before 7. That is why I am pre-trib.

You are also mistaken on the placement of the days of GT Jesus spoke of. He said they would come AFTER the A of D. In Revelation that would be after chapter 11.
But since the Beast is not seen rising until chapter 13, it must be after chapter 13. 

What will CAUSE those days of GT? It will be people forcing other people to BOW to an image on the threat of beheading, or forcing people to take a mark, on the threat of being beheaded.

We see that God sends an angel to warn people not to accept the mark, in chapter 14, so we can be sure the days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until late in chapter 14. 

Therefore to imagine the days of GT anytime before chapter 14 in Revelation is nothing more that imagining a myth.

Finally it is a MYTH that Jesus will arrive at the 7th trumpet. John is VERY clear that Jesus will not arrive (to Armageddon) until AFTER the entire week, and then after the marriage and supper - as shown in chapter 19.

Quote

Yes. Well into the 6th or 7th year of the end of the age. Possibly even very close to the end, maybe months. Wrath is not the entire last 7 years.

I have no idea where you get this from. It cannot be from the book of Revelation. Your theory requires massive rearranging of Revelation to fit.