The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[not an echo]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:17 AM, iamlamad said:

On 12/15/2022 at 10:18 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

The truth of what I have put forth is solidly reinforced in Scripture.  Consider, for example, the part of Luke's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse that parallels what we find in Matthew 24:29-31.  In Luke 21 we read...

The prophetic puzzle of the last days is quite large, and I know that it may be difficult for you to see everything as I am seeing it, especially when we are looking at just a portion of it at any given time.  My prayer and goal over the years has been to come to an understanding that will align with everything God has seen fit to reveal to us in Scripture.  Whether correct, wholly or in part, I do submit that the understandings I have come to indeed align with Scripture.  Being first of all mindful of Proverbs 3:5-6, if you continue to consider what I have found in my journey, I hope this will be of some help to you in your own journey.  I will practice the same thing relating to what you have put forth.

You think your theory is the right one. So does every other writer here. 

The first problem with your theory is TIME. When will the signs in the sun, moon and stars take place in the Matthew 24 account? "After the tribulation of those days."

Concerning your second paragraph, according to your present understanding, I can see why you might say this.  My understanding stems from considering Jesus' words in the framework of what we find revealed to us in The Revelation.  As I've done this, what I've found is that the 6th Seal will be opened, and its accompanying signs seen, after the tribulation of the Church era (all of which connects with the prior seals).  My resulting conviction is that the tribulation of the Church era (of which we are a part) has been brought on by Satan---and his four henchmen---as a result of the liberties granted to him with the opening of the first four seals of the mysterious Seven Sealed Book (Rev. 5:1-2ff).  It must be realized that Satan would not have any liberty of any kind if he were not granted some by Almighty God.  I can almost envision him negotiating with God for the liberties he desired---similar to his scheme with Job.  His liberties relating to the NT Christian era are revealed with the opening of the first four seals.  Unsurprisingly, these dovetail with Jesus' warnings in the opening verses of His Olivet Discourse.  Unsurprisingly as well, the charge of the Seven Sealed Book was conferred to "the Lamb" during the ceremony that John was given an invite to attend, the account of which we find in Revelation chapters four thru five.

Concerning the 5th Seal, what John here sees confirms my position that "the 4th Seal reveals Satan's Church era scheme to martyr Christians, but with a specified limit."  Further, "the 5th Seal reveals the cry of Church era martyrs for justice, nearer the end of the Church era."  What I've just shown as quotes are two more of my 36 propositions that I show in my master thread, which I mentioned and gave a link to in my preceding post and reply to you.

Concerning the question of your last paragraph (which you go on to correctly answer), what I said above also answers this---just with clarifying detail.  Your question could also be answered this way:  Just before the opening of the 6th Seal, as Jesus reveals in His Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:29).

On 12/16/2022 at 9:17 AM, iamlamad said:

Where is the 6th seal in Revelation? Before any part of the 70th week. What you suggest is impossible, trying to warp time so two events over seven years apart meet in time. It is simply impossible.

Of your opening question, which you then answer, I wholeheartedly agree.  All I can figure concerning what you say I "suggest" stems from our differing positions on what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 and the relation of His words to what John sees with the opening of the 6th Seal.  You have focused for some time on the phenomena relating to the sun and the moon.  On my part, what John says concerning the sun becoming "black as sackcloth of hair" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words concerning the sun being "darkened".  And, what John says concerning the moon becoming "as blood" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words, "and the moon shall not give her light" (Matt. 24:29/Rev. 6:12).  Further, there are important understandings concerning what the Bible teaches about tribulation, great tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week---such that there is no need to seek to explain away what is so crystal clear, in favor of preserving an understanding that is less clear.

Finally, if we can't come to a place of agreement, I remain solid on my position(s), as I have not yet been shown anything that I am seeing as being more solid.  I will, however, remember what you have said.

Relating to this thread, I have looked with you at a good bit of what I call some of the "scenery" relating to the last days.  Do you have any further comments that relate more to what the focus of this thread is really supposed to be?

Edited December 29, 2022 by not an echo

[iamlamad]

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, according to your present understanding, I can see why you might say this.  My understanding stems from considering Jesus' words in the framework of what we find revealed to us in The Revelation.  As I've done this, what I've found is that the 6th Seal will be opened, and its accompanying signs seen, after the tribulation of the Church era (all of which connects with the prior seals). 

Jesus: matthew 24:

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The church age equates to the beginning of sorrows, and vice versa.

verse 6: This equates to seal 2, the red horse and WAR.
Verse 7: Still the RED horse, but added to that the black horse and pale horse, so:

Matthew 24:6-8 = seals 2-4 =  BEGINNING of sorrows (the end is not yet.)

In verses 13 and 14 "the end" is mentioned, but the time has not arrived.

In verse 15, Jesus jumps over the first half of the week, and the trumpet judgments, and lands squarely at the midpoint of the week. This is the revealing of  man of sin so all will know he will turn into the Beast.

Where is this is revelation. It is marked by the 7th trumpet.
Remember:
42 months
1260 days
1260 days
Time, times and half of time
42 months,

PROVE these are midpoint chapters. So NO Beast martyrs yet: He has just risen to power. Before the days of GT where the Beast and FP will begin putting people to death will not come until AFTER God warns people not to take the mark - chapter 14. This is confirmed in chapter 16 by the martyrs BEGINNING to show up in heaven.

While you imagine days of GT in the seals, John and the Holy Spirit are still in the church age. Your theory then is around 2000 years off.

Where many people MISS it: they imagine the seals as 70th week events! The truth is, Jesus started in HIs discourse RIGHT THEN where they were: around 32 AD, then covered the ENTIRE church age with "the end is not yet."

Can you find anything in wars and rumors of wars that would point to the Beast? Wars and rumors have been ongoing since Jesus. Two world wars have come and gone. Countless famines, and countless pestilences have come and gone.

I suspect, the way you got so far off, is imagining the signs at the 6th seal (which in reality will be before the week) with the signs Jesus spoke of coming after the tribulation of those days. How can you compare total eclipses with total darkness day after day?

Consider the 5 mentions of the 3 1/2 years. They are found in chapters 11, 12, and 13, proving theses as MIDPOINT chapters. Does it then make good sense that if we flip back to chapters 8 & 9, then will be in the FIRST HALF of the week?

This is how I read it.

[iamlamad]

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

 It must be realized that Satan would not have any liberty of any kind if he were not granted some by Almighty God.  I can almost envision him negotiating with God for the liberties he desired---similar to his scheme with Job.  His liberties relating to the NT Christian era are revealed with the opening of the first four seals.  Unsurprisingly, these dovetail with Jesus' warnings in the opening verses of His Olivet Discourse. 

Brilliant deduction! I am convinced that Satan, as god of this world, demanded the right to try and stop the advance of the gospel. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts, but LIMITED them to only one fourth of the earth.

Again I am convinced Satan believed He could STOP the gospel in that one fourth. WRONG! It is absolutely right to believe that God DELEGATED the 42 months to the devil and the Beast, because it fit His plans.

[iamlamad]

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

 

Of your opening question, which you then answer, I wholeheartedly agree.  All I can figure concerning what you say I "suggest" stems from our differing positions on what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 and the relation of His words to what John sees with the opening of the 6th Seal.  You have focused for some time on the phenomena relating to the sun and the moon.  On my part, what John says concerning the sun becoming "black as sackcloth of hair" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words concerning the sun being "darkened".  And, what John says concerning the moon becoming "as blood" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words, "and the moon shall not give her light" (Matt. 24:29/Rev. 6:12).  Further, there are important understandings concerning what the Bible teaches about tribulation, great tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week---such that there is no need to seek to explain away what is so crystal clear, in favor of preserving an understanding that is less clear.

There are times when a study of the Greek pays off.

Matthew 24  29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Darkened: skotizō 

to cover with darkness, to darken

to be covered with darkness, be darkened

of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

If the sun and moon are deprived of light, can they be seen? No! No one can see a heavenly plant if it has no light.

Here it is prophesied:

Isaiah 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

 

Joel 3:15  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

I simply don't understand why people "jump the gun" in Revelation and believe John is talking about the Beast in the seals, when first, He does not reveal the man of sin until chapter 11.

We will just end up disagreeing. 

[iamlamad]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:25 PM, not an echo said:

Again, while desirous to remain mindful of the focus of this thread, I would like to make a few comments.  First of all, Jesus speaks at length concerning the very day that the rapture will occur (e.g., Matt. 24:29-51), with some very specific words concerning the nature of it. 

This is only a rumor as there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture.  Again, when we consider timing, it is impossible. Paul is clear that HIS rapture (1 thes 4& 5) will come before wrath.

John shows us God's wrath beginning at the 6th seal. John then shows us the 70th week from the first trumpet to the last vial. Therefore, Jesus' words: "after the tribulation of those days" MUST come after the 7th vial that ends the week.

As FURTHER proof, John shows us the beheaded saints only beginning to show up in heaven in Rev. chapter 15! That makes your theory many chapters off from the truth.

I see no way we can agree on anything here.

[not an echo]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:51 PM, iamlamad said:

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, according to your present understanding, I can see why you might say this.  My understanding stems from considering Jesus' words in the framework of what we find revealed to us in The Revelation.  As I've done this, what I've found is that the 6th Seal will be opened, and its accompanying signs seen, after the tribulation of the Church era (all of which connects with the prior seals). 

Jesus: matthew 24:

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The church age equates to the beginning of sorrows, and vice versa.

Hello iamlamad,

If I am understanding your conclusion, I'm feeling that we are probably in agreement on this.  Or real close.

On 12/30/2022 at 3:51 PM, iamlamad said:

verse 6: This equates to seal 2, the red horse and WAR.
Verse 7: Still the RED horse, but added to that the black horse and pale horse, so:

Matthew 24:6-8 = seals 2-4 =  BEGINNING of sorrows (the end is not yet.)

In verses 13 and 14 "the end" is mentioned, but the time has not arrived.

You begin with the 2nd Seal.  All the things I've remembered you saying in the past are not solid enough evidences to deny that verses 4-5 equate with the 1st Seal.

On 12/30/2022 at 3:51 PM, iamlamad said:

Remember:
42 months
1260 days
1260 days
Time, times and half of time
42 months,

PROVE these are midpoint chapters.

What these numbers "PROVE" is that these are 3-1/2 year periods, and we know that the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week is made up of two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, with what you are saying here, in combination with what you have said before (if I have understood you correctly), you believe every mention of these 3-1/2 year equivalents (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, & 13:5) pertains only to the last 3-1/2 years.  If what I am saying misrepresents what you have put forth, this is not my intention.

While here, I will just point out again that in Revelation 11:3, John writes of a 3-1/2 year period that irrefutably connects with the verses that follow, through verse 14, which reads, "The second woe is past;  and behold, the third woe cometh quickly."  My position is that the 3-1/2 year time frame spoken of in verses 3-13 is the FIRST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week, which will be over before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, evidenced by the declaration of verse 14.

You and I both agree that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet marks the beginning of the LAST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week.  My position is that the 3-1/2 year equivalent briefly mentioned in 11:2 concerns this last half, which fits both Luke 21:20-24 and what we find in chapters 12-13, where the 3-1/2 year equivalents are spoken of again (12:6, 14;  13:5).  Seems elementary to me.

On 12/30/2022 at 3:51 PM, iamlamad said:

While you imagine days of GT in the seals, John and the Holy Spirit are still in the church age. Your theory then is around 2000 years off.

Where many people MISS it: they imagine the seals as 70th week events!

What you are saying is like "letting the cat out of the bag" that you really haven't been giving much attention to my position(s).  I am wondering how much of our back and forth may have stemmed from this.  Your statements (in the above quote) are geared against common pre-trib beliefs, not anything I am believing.

My position is that the first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century, and that the four horsemen (Satan's henchmen) have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing---to the tune of what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse.

On 12/30/2022 at 3:51 PM, iamlamad said:

I suspect, the way you got so far off, is imagining the signs at the 6th seal (which in reality will be before the week) with the signs Jesus spoke of coming after the tribulation of those days.

I submit that one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common pre-trib position have ever made is in their running from the "after" in Matthew 24:29 as they have.  This has resulted in them overlooking and misinterpreting so much Scripture that it is no wonder those who used to accept the common pre-trib view (the bottom line of which I hold to be true) have abandoned it.  Conversely, one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common post-trib view have ever made is in their tenacious embracing of the "after" while at the same time never questioning if the "tribulation" Jesus spoke of could be something other than Daniel's 70th Week.

The Revelation holds a primary key to unlocking the truth of what Jesus is in reality speaking of here.  When it is conceded (it should be embraced!) that the event Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, the prophetic puzzle pieces revealing the timing of the rapture relative to other events begin to easily come together.  Then it can be seen that the "tribulation" Jesus was talking about is connected with the opening of the prior seals and the activity of the four horsemen.  Then it can be seen that what Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24:29-31-51 (yes, 29-51), concerns the gathering of the Church and a sign appearance that He is going to make at this time, which event intersects between verses 14 and 15, as evidenced further in The Revelation.  This is solid exegesis "rightly dividing" of the Word of Truth.  What scholars have done with all their exegeting is to lose sight of what is right in front of their eyes.  And this has resulted in their obscuring of the truth to the point that those seeking it can hardly find it any more.

The prophetic puzzle pieces of Matthew 24:29-31 (with Mk. 13:24-27 & Lk. 21:25-27) interlock beautifully with John's account of the 6th Seal and show that the gathering will definitely happen pre-Daniel's 70th Week, which in The Revelation is not seen to begin until 11:1-3ff, during the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-11:14), just after the parenthetical chapter 10, which shows the "little book" of Daniel at this time "open" (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

[not an echo]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:58 PM, iamlamad said:

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

 It must be realized that Satan would not have any liberty of any kind if he were not granted some by Almighty God.  I can almost envision him negotiating with God for the liberties he desired---similar to his scheme with Job.  His liberties relating to the NT Christian era are revealed with the opening of the first four seals.  Unsurprisingly, these dovetail with Jesus' warnings in the opening verses of His Olivet Discourse. 

Brilliant deduction! I am convinced that Satan, as god of this world, demanded the right to try and stop the advance of the gospel. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts, but LIMITED them to only one fourth of the earth.

Again I am convinced Satan believed He could STOP the gospel in that one fourth. WRONG! It is absolutely right to believe that God DELEGATED the 42 months to the devil and the Beast, because it fit His plans.

Well thank you!   While I'm not interested in continuing to veer much from the focus of this thread, I see that you are still breaking from the pattern and parallel of Jesus' opening warning (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5) and what John saw with the opening of the 1st Seal (Rev. 6:1-2).  Of course, I must disagree with your deduction on this.  

Also, my position is that the "one fourth" limitation you speak of is tied to the activity of the fourth horsemen alone.  The "them" of Revelation 6:8 is "Death and Hell".  It was to "them" that power was given "over the fourth part of the earth" (geographically) to bring about death directed toward Christians "with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."  This is substantiated by both Jesus' words (e.g., Matt. 24:9) and what John sees with the opening of the 5th Seal.

Because of my recent realization that you had not yet picked up on my position concerning the seals prior to the 6th Seal, I'm thinking that you must have never seen my threads on these.  Here is the title and link to my 1st Seal thread:  The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).  There you will also find links to my threads concerning the 2nd Seal thru the 5th Seal.  I just went over there and saw that something odd has happened to my illustration of the Seven Sealed Book.  Some more work to do, but not tonight.

My eyes are blurry...

[Revelation Man]

On 11/17/2022 at 9:09 PM, not an echo said:

Near the closing of Revelation chapter 11, we find John's account of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and a brief overview of what this period entails.  Evidences that I will be showing support that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet will mark the beginning of the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week, but also, that it heralds the period in which complete closure for this world will occur.  In other words, what the 7th Trumpet heralds is huge---very huge!  Let's begin with a look at the brief overview we are given of this period, again, from Revelation 11 (and note the bold)...

The 7th Trump sounds and it is the actual 3rd Woe, we know this because scriptures tell us this.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the first four trumps are all one asteroid imho, then trumps 5 and 6 are seen in Rev. 9, they are Woes #1 & #2, we are then given the details of woe #2 in Rev. 9, but we also see the Two-witnesses are killed during the 2nd woe. Likewise, in Rev. 11 we are told the 3rd woe comes quickly, and told the 7th trump sounds, but we do not get the details of the 3rd woe, and thats because the details are in Rev. 16 the 3rd woe are (and can only be according to Rev. 8:13) the 7 Vials. Woe, woe, woe the 5th Trump = woe #1, 6th trump = woe #2 and the 7th trump will = woe #3. 

The 7th Trump in Rev. 11 is showing who prayed down every plague, the Two-witnesses, those plagues start in Rev. 8 with the first trump. The 7th Trump indeed ends it all, but the coming Two-witnesses are dead by then, thats why we only get a declaration that the 7th trump brings VICTORY, we do not get the details of what ensues.  

Trump 7 in Revelation 11, the Wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 14:17-20, then Babylon the Great getting the wine-press of God's Wrath in Rev. 16:19, and the Rev. 19:17-19 Marriage Supper (Armageddon) are all four the exact same event !!

The 7th Trump will happen 75 days before Jesus returns, we know this because the Two-witnesses die 75 days before the Beast dies, we know this because they are the 1335 Blessing, thus they show up 75 days before the Beast conquers Israel at the 1260 event. Rev. 8 starts at the 1260, the 7 Trumps thus run in order. The 7 Trumps are all of God's Wrath, see Rev. 10s Seven Thunders, same thing, just in prose. Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 also start at the 1260 event just like Rev. 8, but Rev. 8, 9 and 16 are in order. Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses ministry, which starts 75 days before Rev. 8 and ends 75 days before the Beast dies.

I give you guys the perfect order, and you never see it, when you all get to heaven you are going have this WOW MOMENT, and say I spent all that time trying to figure this out when Rev. Man was telling me the truth.

P.S. The Last Trump has nothing to do with a Rev. trump, besides Rev. 4:1 where Jesus sounds as a Trump when he tells John to come up here. The Last Trump is speaking to how the Last Trump in the Feast of Trumps ALWAYS ENDED the Harvest every year. The Harvest = the Church Age.

Jesus must fulfill all 7 Feasts, he is our 1.) Passover, he was without sin 2.) Unleavened. He was the 3.) First-fruits of death. 

Jesus is our High Priest, we are his body, he is thus fulfilling the 4.) Great Harvest or Feast of weeks/Pentecost. Jesus will blow the 5.) Last Trump and thus fulfill the Feast of Trumps. Then after the Church is in Heaven at the Pre Trib Rapture Israel will 6.) Atone and thus Jesus fulfills the Feast of Atonement and lastly Jesus fulfills the 7.) Feast of Tabernacles via his 1000 year reign, to TABERNACLE simply means to dwell with God, and Israel will dwell with Jesus/God. 

Now, here is a key to what Jesus really meant by no man will know the day nor the hour except the Father. He was referring to the Last Trump. So, Israel were on a Lunar calendar right? (God time so to speak) So, the Harvest always ended on the New Year ! Thus it took a New Moon every year for the New Year to kick off via this Lunar timeclock they were on. And the exact day nor hour of the new moon could ever be known, they could of course approximate it within a couple of days and be on the lookout. So, the leaders sent two witnesses up into the mountains to spy out just when the new moon came in, then when they got word the new moon was in they started blowing the trumps. They blew the Shofar in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the LAST TRUMP it blew longer and louder than the other 99 and OFICALLY ENDED the Summer Harvest (think Church Age). 

The Last Trump is not a Revelation Trumpet brother.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Revelation Man

[not an echo]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:23 PM, iamlamad said:

On 12/28/2022 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

 

Of your opening question, which you then answer, I wholeheartedly agree.  All I can figure concerning what you say I "suggest" stems from our differing positions on what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31 and the relation of His words to what John sees with the opening of the 6th Seal.  You have focused for some time on the phenomena relating to the sun and the moon.  On my part, what John says concerning the sun becoming "black as sackcloth of hair" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words concerning the sun being "darkened".  And, what John says concerning the moon becoming "as blood" is the fulfillment of Jesus' words, "and the moon shall not give her light" (Matt. 24:29/Rev. 6:12).  Further, there are important understandings concerning what the Bible teaches about tribulation, great tribulation, and Daniel's 70th Week---such that there is no need to seek to explain away what is so crystal clear, in favor of preserving an understanding that is less clear.

There are times when a study of the Greek pays off.

Matthew 24  29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Darkened: skotizō 

to cover with darkness, to darken

to be covered with darkness, be darkened

of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

If the sun and moon are deprived of light, can they be seen? No! No one can see a heavenly plant if it has no light.

Here it is prophesied:

Isaiah 13:10  For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

 

Joel 3:15  The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Hello iamlamad,

Seems like to me that all you are doing on the path you have been going down is shooting yourself in the foot.  What do you think the sun will be like when it becomes "black as sackcloth of hair" (Rev. 6:12)?  What does "a study of the Greek" reveal about the word from which "black" was translated?

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE G3189

Original Word: μέλας

Transliteration: mélas

Phonetic Spelling: mel'-as

[μέλας] apparently a primary word; black

Seems to me that something black in both English and Greek would be really black, huh?  Add to this "as sackcloth of hair" and it's not hard to get a mental picture of what John is trying to convey.

Consider what Peter quoted of Joel on the Day of Pentecost.  In Acts 2 we read...

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

Seems like to me that what Peter is here quoting of Joel will be fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal, don't you think?  I mean, with the sun becoming "black" and the moon becoming "as blood" (Rev. 6:12) and this all happening just before "the Great Day of His Wrath" (Rev. 6:17) and everything?

Seems to me that your efforts to show that Matthew 24:29 is not kin to Revelation 6:12 is akin to what Jesus said about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

I'm thinking that shooting yourself in the foot has got to hurt.

[not an echo]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:23 PM, iamlamad said:

I simply don't understand why people "jump the gun" in Revelation and believe John is talking about the Beast in the seals, when first, He does not reveal the man of sin until chapter 11.

I agree wholeheartedly!

On 12/30/2022 at 4:23 PM, iamlamad said:

We will just end up disagreeing.

Oops!  I guess I jumped the gun with my agreement.

Naw.  What I said about agreeing wholeheartedly is so.  Absolutely so.

Sure am looking forward to getting back on track with the subject of this thread.  The scenery has been interesting though.

Edited January 5, 2023 by not an echo