The Seventh Trumpet and the Period It Heralds

[iamlamad]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

...

You say, "This is only a rumor as there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  Why do you say "rumor"?  Jesus said what He said and other scriptures interlock with everything He is saying.  In light of our many discussions, I don't know how you could think that your statement reflects anything more than just continued denial.  JESUS SAID, "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31) at which time "shall two be in the field;  the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matt. 24:40), AND PAUL SAYS, "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with then in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17), yet "there is no proof  - not one word of any hint - that Jesus was talking about Paul's rapture."  You are making me think some thoughts that I wish I wasn't having to think.

I say "rumor" because that is all it is, a rumor with no truth in it. You are trying to move an event that is clearly "after the tribulation of those days" to a point in time before any part of "the tribulation."  

Perhaps we disagree on terms.
"Tribulation" = the 70th week.
The 70th week =  "the Tribulation."

"Great tribulation" is not a title to any period of time. There will be "days" of great tribulation that will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet and all who work with them forcing people to receive their mark, or lose their heads.

Because every human on the planet will KNOW the danger of taking the mark, great pressure (tribulation) will be put upon people to refuse the mark and lose their heads. This is the basis of the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of. (There are other scriptural uses of "great tribulation" that Jesus did not speak of.

I am simply amazed that people imagine they can rearrange Revelation to fit their theory.  For example, I heard one man say, "the 7th trumpet will sound at the 6th seal." That is rearranging. My AXIOM on Revelation is, 

"Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

That is how sure I am that John wrote things in perfect order, but used parentheses.

With all that said, the gathering Jesus spoke of simply cannot be Paul's rapture for the simple fact of TIME and TIMING. This gathering is after the tribulation (70th week) of those days, while Paul's rapture will take place over seven years previous to this.

On your side, the word "gathering" in two different events.
A trumpet sound in two separate events.
Jesus involved in both.

What? Is God not allowed to have more than one gathering?
Is God not allowed to have more than one set of signs in the sky? 
Is God not allowed to have TWO EVENTS with cosmic signs?

Second reason: this gathering gathers from the WRONG PLACE.

Third reason, this gathering uses angels. Paul's gathering will use the Holy Spirit to raise us up and then gather us to Him.

 

[iamlamad]

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

...

Concerning your opening sentence, I maintain that there is a concept that continues to be obscured by a wording such as this.  What we are actually shown here is that "the great day of God's wrath is come" and the people's concern, "and who shall be able to stand."  When this is fit with the other prophetic pieces of the last days' puzzle, we find that it is the period of the last days' DOTL judgment that begins on this day.  By Paul's words, we know that the Church will be gathered, or "caught up" by the angels at this time, concurrent with the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:31.  These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12 thru 7:17).

The Day of the Lord is not going to be one solar day. It is going to be a very long time. I believe the millennial reign is included due to what Peter wrote. If not, then I would guess the Day will end at Armageddon.

Do you equate "the day of the Lord" with "the Day of His wrath?" I do. John begins the DAY as the final event of the 6th seal.

In comparison, John begins the WEEK at the 7th seal.  WHY do I believe that? Because Jesus said to me, "You could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked." This was right after telling me I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." Therefore I knew that whatever marker God used for the midpoint, He would use for the beginning and the end. I am convinced that the 70th week is marked by 7's.

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"caught up" by the angels at this time,

God is not allowed to have TWO trumpet sounds in our future? A trumpet does not pinpoint  TIME unless the time is mentioned in the context. Jesus gave a very clear context: "after the tribulation [I read 70th week] of those days."

Paul also gives away timing, but perhaps not as precise. Paul's timing is, just before the start of God's wrath. I believe we could say, just before the start of the DAY of His wrath or just before the start of the Day of the Lord, which day will begin with wrath and fierce anger.

The rapture event does not fit with no agree with "wrath and fierce anger."  The DAY cannot begin with the rapture. The rapture must come BEFORE the start of the DAY. Therefore I disagree with your "at this time."

There is a truth here that has not been said. People are going to LIVE THROUGH the Day of the Lord. 

Once again, please explain how you can equate total eclipses of the sun and moon with total darkness where the sun, moon and stars are invisible? It is impossible.

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These prophetic puzzle pieces fit with what happens with the opening of the 6th Seal

Sorry, but the only thing that FITS with the 6th seal is what is written at the 6th seal, plus the Joel 2 prophecy OF the 6th seal event, plus Peter's quote of the Joel prophecy. 

Where you are missing it:

The 6th seal comes on John's timeline BEFORE ANY PART of the 70th week.

Here is my outline of Revelation: Can you agree with it?

Chapter 1: Introduction.

Chapters 2 and 3: Messages to churches.

Chapters 4 and 5: show us the context and timing of the first seals: 32 AD.
 •Jesus not seen at the right hand of the father—still on earth.
 •Jesus was not found worthy to take the book in the first search—before Jesus prevailed over death.
 •The Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in chapter 4—before Jesus ascended to send Him down.
 •Time passes and then Jesus prevailed over death.
 •Jesus then found worthy to take the book.
•Jesus ascends back into the throne room.
•Jesus sends Holy Spirit down: circa 32 AD.
•Jesus takes the book: Circa 32 AD.

Chapter 6: starts at the same time: 32 AD, when Jesus got the book into His hands: it is the start of the church age.
•Seal 1: the church sent out with Gospel.
•Seals 2-4: Satan’s attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts.
•Seal 5: The church-age martyrs. They are told judgment won’t start until the full number of martyrs has been killed. The pre-trib rapture will end the church age and trigger the start of the Day of the Lord.
•Seal 6 then starts the Day of the Lord when Judgment begins.

Chapter 7: is an intermission: God must see two things done before He can start the hurt on earth (judgment as in the 70^th week).
 • 1: The 144,000 must be sealed before the Week can begin.
 • 2: The church must be seen safely in heaven before the first event of wrath.

Chapter 8: Seventh Seal, the start of the 70^th week, and the start of the hurt on earth. Hurt comes with Wrath. The trumpets start with Wrath. Four trumpets sound in chapter 8.

Chapter 9: The hurt continues with trumpets #5 and #6. All trumpets come with Wrath.

Chapter 10: Intermission: things have to be done or said before the abomination that will divide the week and starts the days of great tribulation.

Chapter 11: The man of sin moves to Jerusalem with Gentile armies who will trample the Holy City—just days before He will enter the temple. The city will be trampled—probably by his Gentle armies—for the next 42 months.

• The two witnesses suddenly appear on earth, just 3½ days before the man of sin will enter the temple, and cause the week to be divided. They will testify for the next 1260 days

•The 7^th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and causes the abomination that Jesus spoke of.

•The first 6000 years are over, Adam's lease ends, and a property closing takes place in heaven: the kingdoms of earth are taken from Satan and given to Jesus.

Chapter 12: God introduces John to the dragon: mentioned 32 times in this chapter:

•The first five verses are a history lesson for John, written as a parenthesis, about the days of Jesus’ birth; how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a child.

•Seconds after the abomination: those in Judea begin to flee – for the next 1260 days.

•War in heaven: Satan has no more legal hold

•on earth (He had usurped Adam's lease) and is now cast down from the heavenly realms. He loses his wings.

•Satan goes after those who have fled but discovers God is protecting them, (and will for the next 3½ times) so he goes after the remnant of those who love Jesus, a remnant because the main load went out with the pre-trib rapture.

Chapter 13: God introduces John to the Beast and False Prophet - who will cause those days of great tribulation: great pressure upon people.

•The man of sin who entered the temple in chapter 11 and declared he is God, has now turned Beast. John sees him arising.

•He is given 42 months of authority. (The next 42 months from this point on.)

•The False prophet shows up.

•God shows us what they will do: cause the days of great tribulation: they will create an image and a mark, and force people to receive it. (They accomplish these things during the next chapters up to chapter 16.)

Chapter 14: God must warn people before they accept the mark: if they do, they will be doomed to the lake of fire. Three Angels give three warnings.

•God also warns people to worship God and fear Him. After the warning, the Beast and False prophet will begin forcing the mark upon people: they will either take the mark or lose their heads.

•These are the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. 

Chapter 15: the beheaded (from the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of) begin to show up in heaven. Time passes as the murder of the saints reaches a frenzy during the days of great tribulation.

Chapter 16: Great Tribulation continues, but God pours out the vials filled with His wrath to shorten those days of great tribulation.

•The two witnesses are killed—3½ days before the end of the week.

•The 7^th vial ends the 70^th week.

•The Old Testament saints are resurrected “on the last day” along with the Two Witnesses and those beheaded by the Beast.

Chapters 17 and 18: information on the destruction of the great whore Babylon, the city of Jerusalem, while the Beast and False Prophet are there deceiving the world.

Chapter 19: Babylon is destroyed. Israel and Jerusalem are under attack. Evil spirits have caused the leaders of any country with a standing army to send troops to Israel. Perhaps 70 nations have sent troops. Jerusalem is nearly taken and many are led away as slaves. Millions of foreign troops are in Israel, determined to wipe her off the maps.

•Marriage and supper take place in heaven while the 42 months of authority wind down.

•Jesus returns to earth with the armies of heaven just in the nick of time. The war of Armageddon takes place.

Chapter 20: the start of the 1000-year reign of Christ. Satan is bound.

•Old Testament and New Testament saints are seen judging. The Beheaded are also resurrected and reign with Him.

•The 1000 reign of Christ ends. Satan is turned loose. Gog and Magog war takes place.

•Heaven and earth disappear and the time for the Great, White throne judgment comes.

(End of outline)

As you can see, John’s chronology flows smoothly from chapter to chapter and event to event. There is no need to rearrange Revelation to fit some theory. The truth is, any theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong. Except for parentheses and prophecies given by the elders, Revelation is written in the exact order these events either have taken place or will take place.

Therefore, when anyone tries to move an event "after the tribulation of those days" to a point before the tribulation, my mind goes TILT!

[not an echo]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:24 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/4/2023 at 11:49 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Seems like to me that all you are doing on the path you have been going down is shooting yourself in the foot.  What do you think the sun will be like when it becomes "black as sackcloth of hair" (Rev. 6:12)?  What does "a study of the Greek" reveal about the word from which "black" was translated?

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE G3189

Original Word: μέλας

Transliteration: mélas

Phonetic Spelling: mel'-as

[μέλας] apparently a primary word; black

Seems to me that something black in both English and Greek would be really black, huh?  Add to this "as sackcloth of hair" and it's not hard to get a mental picture of what John is trying to convey.

Consider what Peter quoted of Joel on the Day of Pentecost.  In Acts 2 we read...

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come:

Seems like to me that what Peter is here quoting of Joel will be fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal, don't you think?  I mean, with the sun becoming "black" and the moon becoming "as blood" (Rev. 6:12) and this all happening just before "the Great Day of His Wrath" (Rev. 6:17) and everything?

Seems to me that your efforts to show that Matthew 24:29 is not kin to Revelation 6:12 is akin to what Jesus said about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

I'm thinking that shooting yourself in the foot has got to hurt.

There is only one thing I know of that naturally causes the moon to appear blood red and the sun to appear black: total eclipses. These are perfect descriptions of total eclipses.  Perhaps you should look on google for a picture of total eclipses.

Hello iamlamad,

What kind of total eclipse are you talking about that has the "moon to appear blood red and the sun to appear black" at the same time?  Can you tell me where to Goggle for pictures of that?

On 1/5/2023 at 4:24 PM, iamlamad said:

Once again, how can anyone imagine total darkness for days on end could be equated with total eclipses? 

Of what you say concerning "days on end",  I can see the "third part" darkness where "the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise" (Rev. 8:12) resulting from the suspension of the dust, vapor, and smoke that will fill the atmosphere, caused by what all happens in connection with the sounding of the 4th Trumpet and prior.

On 1/5/2023 at 4:24 PM, iamlamad said:

Does it not bother you that you are trying to warp the timing of Revelation 19 (after the tribulation) back to the timing of the 6th seal in chapter 6 which is a point in time BEFORE the tribulation? Who then is shooting themselves in the foot?

The 6th seal comes BEFORE the tribulation. They revelation 8 through 16 IS the tribulation (or 70th week). Then chapters 17, 18, and 19 come AFTER the week.

I see trying to morph these two points in time - over 7 years apart - into one point in time is worse that shooting one's self in the foot.

"Does it not bother you brother" that you keep distorting my position by not clearly differentiating between the tribulation of the era of the NT Church and Daniel's 70th Week---as I do?  Do you not remember what I shared about all this back on page 7, posts 7-8, when I made an effort to get this thread back on track?  The way you have worded your scrutinizing of my position does not even reflect my position.

We are in agreement that Christ's Second Advent comes after Daniel's 70th Week.  We are in agreement that the 6th Seal is opened before Daniel's 70th Week.  Where we are differing concerns the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29 and how everything gets out of kelter when it is not seen that what Jesus is speaking of in verses 29-31 finds its fulfillment with the opening of the 6th Seal---making the "tribulation" He is speaking of connect with the opening of the prior seals.  I have a thread dedicated to this titled The Tribulation of Matthew 24:29 and Daniel's 70th Week (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/279060-the-tribulation-of-matthew-2429-and-daniels-70th-week/).  The Revelation holds the key to opening the truth of this, and you will not use it.

So, what has happened here is that you have went from shooting yourself in the foot to trying to shoot me in the foot.  If you were nice, you would apologize.

[not an echo]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:55 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/3/2023 at 11:46 PM, not an echo said:

Well thank you!   While I'm not interested in continuing to veer much from the focus of this thread, I see that you are still breaking from the pattern and parallel of Jesus' opening warning (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5) and what John saw with the opening of the 1st Seal (Rev. 6:1-2).  Of course, I must disagree with your deduction on this.  

Also, my position is that the "one fourth" limitation you speak of is tied to the activity of the fourth horsemen alone.  The "them" of Revelation 6:8 is "Death and Hell".  It was to "them" that power was given "over the fourth part of the earth" (geographically) to bring about death directed toward Christians "with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."  This is substantiated by both Jesus' words (e.g., Matt. 24:9) and what John sees with the opening of the 5th Seal.

Because of my recent realization that you had not yet picked up on my position concerning the seals prior to the 6th Seal, I'm thinking that you must have never seen my threads on these.  Here is the title and link to my 1st Seal thread:  The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).  There you will also find links to my threads concerning the 2nd Seal thru the 5th Seal.  I just went over there and saw that something odd has happened to my illustration of the Seven Sealed Book.  Some more work to do, but not tonight.

My eyes are blurry...

I don't think you appreciate my position on the timing of the early seals and why I am unmovable in my position. You won't believe any of this, but I will tall it anyway: it happened to ME. 

I was bugged by John weeping and wondered why Jesus chose to include that in John's book, and why it he had to add "much." I bugged God about that for a couple of weeks. Then, it was AS IF Jesus came to my house and pulled up a chair to my study desk and began speaking to me. I have, in other threads, wrote word for word what He said.

In short, He showed me the purpose of chapters 4 & 5 were to show the timing of the first seals. John saw Jesus ascend, and send the Holy Spirit down. He went to the Father and took the book and began right then, around 32 AD, opening the seals. 

Therefore, I instantly dismiss any theory that has the first seal opening in our future.

Concerning your last sentence, you know that this is not my position.  Did you ever look in on my thread titled The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)?   

  Are you trying to shoot me in the foot here too?

On 1/5/2023 at 4:55 PM, iamlamad said:

I also disagree with you here.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. (Hunger, Famine)

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I think it is very clear: in verse 8 God and John linked DEATH (the 4th seal) with seals 2 and 3, WAR and FAMINE. Both of these causes death. And death is a parallel with pestilence ; example the black death.

Why has God allowed Satan to try and stop the gospel using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts? John does not cover God's reasons. I can only guess that Satan demanded that right, since he was and still is the god of this world.

Why do you persist in rejecting the first parallel?  Your position is in conflict with both Jesus' words (which John heard) and The Revelation (which John saw).  Moreover, in connection with the reasoning you express in your last paragraph, what about Satan's desire to "stop the gospel" using false Christs, false prophets, and falsehood?  Jesus essentially sandwiches the other things He warns of with warnings of this (e.g., Matt. 24:4-5 & 11)---something that you do not affirm whatsoever.  Zero.

It's because of weaknesses like this (that keep piling up) with your view that I ended up rejecting the pre-trib view that I grew up being taught.

[not an echo]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:15 PM, iamlamad said:

On 1/3/2023 at 10:53 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

If I am understanding your conclusion, I'm feeling that we are probably in agreement on this.  Or real close.

You begin with the 2nd Seal.  All the things I've remembered you saying in the past are not solid enough evidences to deny that verses 4-5 equate with the 1st Seal.

What these numbers "PROVE" is that these are 3-1/2 year periods, and we know that the seven year period of Daniel's 70th Week is made up of two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, with what you are saying here, in combination with what you have said before (if I have understood you correctly), you believe every mention of these 3-1/2 year equivalents (11:2, 11:3, 12:6, 12:14, & 13:5) pertains only to the last 3-1/2 years.  If what I am saying misrepresents what you have put forth, this is not my intention.

While here, I will just point out again that in Revelation 11:3, John writes of a 3-1/2 year period that irrefutably connects with the verses that follow, through verse 14, which reads, "The second woe is past;  and behold, the third woe cometh quickly."  My position is that the 3-1/2 year time frame spoken of in verses 3-13 is the FIRST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week, which will be over before the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, evidenced by the declaration of verse 14.

You and I both agree that the sounding of the 7th Trumpet marks the beginning of the LAST HALF of Daniel's 70th Week.  My position is that the 3-1/2 year equivalent briefly mentioned in 11:2 concerns this last half, which fits both Luke 21:20-24 and what we find in chapters 12-13, where the 3-1/2 year equivalents are spoken of again (12:6, 14;  13:5).  Seems elementary to me.

What you are saying is like "letting the cat out of the bag" that you really haven't been giving much attention to my position(s).  I am wondering how much of our back and forth may have stemmed from this.  Your statements (in the above quote) are geared against common pre-trib beliefs, not anything I am believing.

My position is that the first four seals were opened as early as late in the first century, and that the four horsemen (Satan's henchmen) have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing---to the tune of what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse.

I submit that one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common pre-trib position have ever made is in their running from the "after" in Matthew 24:29 as they have.  This has resulted in them overlooking and misinterpreting so much Scripture that it is no wonder those who used to accept the common pre-trib view (the bottom line of which I hold to be true) have abandoned it.  Conversely, one of the biggest mistakes scholars trying to defend the common post-trib view have ever made is in their tenacious embracing of the "after" while at the same time never questioning if the "tribulation" Jesus spoke of could be something other than Daniel's 70th Week.

The Revelation holds a primary key to unlocking the truth of what Jesus is in reality speaking of here.  When it is conceded (it should be embraced!) that the event Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, the prophetic puzzle pieces revealing the timing of the rapture relative to other events begin to easily come together.  Then it can be seen that the "tribulation" Jesus was talking about is connected with the opening of the prior seals and the activity of the four horsemen.  Then it can be seen that what Jesus is speaking about in Matthew 24:29-31-51 (yes, 29-51), concerns the gathering of the Church and a sign appearance that He is going to make at this time, which event intersects between verses 14 and 15, as evidenced further in The Revelation.  This is solid exegesis "rightly dividing" of the Word of Truth.  What scholars have done with all their exegeting is to lose sight of what is right in front of their eyes.  And this has resulted in their obscuring of the truth to the point that those seeking it can hardly find it any more.

The prophetic puzzle pieces of Matthew 24:29-31 (with Mk. 13:24-27 & Lk. 21:25-27) interlock beautifully with John's account of the 6th Seal and show that the gathering will definitely happen pre-Daniel's 70th Week, which in The Revelation is not seen to begin until 11:1-3ff, during the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-11:14), just after the parenthetical chapter 10, which shows the "little book" of Daniel at this time "open" (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

You probably could call yourself a pre-wrather. That is what they believe.

Naw, we aren't on the same page.  But, because I am a pre-Daniel's 70th Weeker, that makes me also a pre-wrather.  I am also a pre-DOTLer!  I mean, I am pre!  I'm so pre that I believe the Lamb could open the 6th Seal pre my pushing Submit Reply!

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 12:40 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Further, my position is that the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of at the time of the event He describes in Matthew 24:29-31 is also the Last Trump/Trump of God. 

That is not the Rapture, Jesus returns to save the Jewish people and set up his Kingdom Age. A hint at the Rapture can be seen in Matt. 24:36-51, as in the days of Noah, they were marrying, eating, basically partying and acting normal, then the food came to take them all away. So, after God's Wrath kills billions of people, and they hide from God in their caves and beg to be killed, do you think they will all be acting normal when Jesus' Second Coming (which means 2nd Advent, Jesus has traveled to this earth multiple times, probably in the 1000s or 10.000, or more. 

The one is TAKEN and one is LEFT matches up with the 5 virgins missing the wedding call. Half of all Christendom are fake Christians, who think God stupid I guess, they love sin  more than God, but expect to be Raptured. 

Again, Israel is not a part of the Harvest (Church Age per se), they ATONE in Zechariah 13:8-9 or repent, just before the DOTL comes in Zech. 14:1-2. This time of Atonement can only come AFTER the Harvest Ends and AFTER the Feast of Trumps. And the Feast of Tabernacles can only come AFTER the Feast of Atonement. The 70th week prophecy spells it all out Israel has to atone before the 70th week can end !! They can not ATONE unless the Summer Harvest has ended, we the Church are the Summer Harvest. That is why the Time of the Gentiles (Church Age) happens during the "Summer" the Jews calling brought forth the Messiah and his Sacrifice via the Spring Feasts (1. Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread 3.) First-fruits and will bring forth the Fall Feasts which birth the Kingdom Age via the 5.) Feast of Trumps 6.) Feast of Atonement and 7.) The Feast of Tabernacles. Only the Harvest is all alone on the calendar, just like the Church Age via the Time of the Gentiles is also. 

Hello Revelation Man,

Connected more with your opening statement, how do you reconcile the "great sound of a trumpet" connected with your position on Matthew 24:31 with the Last Trump/Trump of God and the later sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

On 1/9/2023 at 12:40 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Moreover, what He is describing here dovetails with the event of the opening of the 6th Seal, at which time He will also make the "sign" appearance He speaks of (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16)

The Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus Prophesying amidst the Church in Heaven just BEFORE the 1260 Wrath of God falls, and as he opens each seal he Prophesies what coming over the next 42 months. Seals 1-5 are al about the Anti-Christs soon to come rule as the Beast. He will not be allowed to go forth conquering until God's Wrath falls via Trumps 1-4, which is one event, an Asteroid (IMHO) named Apophis. Thus all 5 Seals happen over the same 42 month period of his rule. 1.) He conquers 2.) Takes away Peace. 3.)His rule brings Famine 4.) Sickness/Death follow his 42 month tyrannical rule 5.) He Martyrs those of God who repent during the 70th week, for 42 months. All 5 of these events cover 42 months. So, Jesus is FORETELLING what this Beasts rule will bring forth over 42 months when God's Wrath falls and he allowed to go forth conquering.

The 6th Seal is Jesus FORETELLING of God's soon to come Wrath on mankind, he tells how the sun and moon will not give its full light, just like Joel 2:31 FORETELLS this also. Then in Trump #4 we see this COME TO PASS !! The Asteroid causes all of this !! But ONLY AFTER the 7th Seal is opened can the Judgment Scroll be read from. The reason there is silence in Heaven is there in no joy in having to destroy billions of people because of their wicked hearts. Thus heaven has a heavy heart, but justice has to be brought to pass. The Moon goes dark in the MIDDLE of the Week, not at the end per se. You confuse Matt. 24:30, let me show you why its actually 1260 days AFTER Matt. 24:29.

Remember, this is not a play by play like Revelation is of the end times, Jesus knew that was coming later, he's just giving his Disciples a synopsis of end time events, not a spelled out playbook of every detail in the end times. 

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation(WHEN?  As soon as God's Wrath falls we see what? ) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light (We see the Sun & Moons light dim by 1/3 as Rev. 8 says), and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then (1260 days later) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Concerning your next to last reference (Matt. 24:29), if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that the "tribulation" Jesus is here speaking of is "God's Wrath "?   Tying this together with what you then say of verse 30 ("And then "), are you saying that after God's wrath, it will be "(1260 days later) " before the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" is seen?  Seems to me that by this, you have the event of the 6th Seal encompassing 1260 days.  Is this what you are saying?

Your position is raising a lot of other questions in my mind as well, but we are already veering way off from the topic of this thread.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around all that you are putting forth.

On 1/9/2023 at 12:40 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 1/8/2023 at 10:24 PM, not an echo said:

Unsurprisingly, we see the "great multitude" associated with this gathering (another of the prophetic puzzle pieces) in the interlude between the opening of the 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7:9-17).  If my memory is serving me correctly, you believe as I do that this great multitude is the Church.  I think you are just not connecting the dots or assembling the prophetic puzzle pieces as I am.

Yes, it is the Pre Trib Raptured Church.

God Bless my friend, gotta run. REMEMBER, I am not being a party pooper, just trying to get you to think out of the box like Jesus did. (of course he was God the Redeemer, but he wanted his disciples to NOT THINK like the conformist Pharisees. )

We are in agreement on your opening sentence.  What I am seeing is that we come to a couple of the same very important bottom line conclusions, but how we are arriving at our conclusions is far different.

[Revelation Man]

27 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your next to last reference (Matt. 24:29), if I am understanding you correctly, are you saying that the "tribulation" Jesus is here speaking of is "God's Wrath "?   Tying this together with what you then say of verse 30 ("And then "), are you saying that after God's wrath, it will be "(1260 days later) " before the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" is seen?  Seems to me that by this, you have the event of the 6th Seal encompassing 1260 days.  Is this what you are saying?

Your position is raising a lot of other questions in my mind as well, but we are already veering way off from the topic of this thread.  I'm just trying to wrap my head around all that you are putting forth.

Yes, the Wrath of God brings forth Jacob's troubles. So, God's Wrath will cause the sun and moon to dim by 1/3, that is troubles, but the Anti-Christ is restrained until God's Wrath falls also, so his troubles parallel exactly with God's Wrath. Both last for exactly 1260 days. So, all of these troubles start with God's Wrath, but it is not merely God's Wrath, it includes the Anti-Christ 42 month rule also. 

The Greatest Ever Troubles last 42 months, its not one day, it is ONE DAY in which it starts on. The Prophets thus points to the Day of the Lord as ONE DAY on which God's Wrath begins !!

The 6th Seal is throwing you off (as it does most tbh). The Seals are not Judgments, they are Jesus opening the Judgment Scrolls that are sealed up, no Wrath can fall until all 7 Seals are opened. If a king sent a message with three seals on it 2000 years ago no one could see that message until all three seals had been broken.

The number 7 = Divine Completion. Thus God is saying these 7 Seals have my Judgments sealed up completely until I reveal these things (Revelation). Jesus is in heaven amidst the Pre Trib Raptured Church in Rev. 4 & 5 and he starts opening the seals on the scroll that has the Judgments therein. As he opens each seal he prophesies what is about to befall mankind [when the Seven Trumps sound]. Seals 1-5 is a prophetic look at the coming Beast, Seal 6 is a prophetic look ahead to God's Wrath (Rev. 8). Rev. 7 is the Jews who repent fleeing Judea, God thus says HOLD UP the four winds (Judgments) until they have been sealed (Repent or Atone). So, this is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev.8 !! This is why there is silence in Heaven just before God's Wrath falls on mankind. 

Think of it like thus, you have a bunch of friends over to see all of your birthday presents, but thy are in a closet locked up with 7 locks. As you open each lock you tell them about different gifts, a Harmonica, a Necklace, a Leather bible etc. etc. But until that 7th lock is off, not one of your friends will see anything in  that closet until the 7th lock has been loosed.

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:21 AM, iamlamad said:

On 1/8/2023 at 10:30 PM, not an echo said:

When you come to realize that Revelation 11:3-14 is of the first half of the week---something unquestionably apparent to me---we will be in a little further agreement.

It takes a wild imagination to imaging John would write two verses (11:1-2) for the last half of the week, then in the very next verse write the first half of the week.

I remind you of the words Jesus spoke to me:

"Every time I mentioned an event that would go from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time."

Therefore the day will never come that I will agree with your above point.

My position concerning Revelation 11, verses one thru three, and then verses 3-14 is very scriptural and logical.

What we see in verse one is evidences of the beast being worshiped.  Just because the "temple of God" is seen and "worship" is going on, this does not mean that it is God who is being worshiped (cp. Matt. 24:15 & II Thess. 2:3-4).  Note also that the first mention of the beast is seen in verse seven.

What we see in the next two verses (vss. 2-3) concerns the two 3-1/2 year times frames that make up the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week.  This is very interesting in light of what I have often said and shown concerning the "little book" of Daniel being seen "open" (Rev. 10:2/Dan. 12:4, 8-10) just prior to this.  Said another way, if Revelation 10 concerns the little book of Daniel being at this time seen open, it certainly shouldn't surprise us to see the first real evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having now actually begun.  And we do, with the opening verses of chapter 11.

In verse two, we see the first mention of 3-1/2 years, and relatively speaking, it is just a mention.  You already accept it as pertaining to the last half of Daniel's 70th Week (as do I), which fits Luke 21:20-24 and what we see when the last half of the week begins to be expounded in Revelation 12.

Then, in verse three, the other 3-1/2 year time frame is not only mentioned, but expounded.  Is this the same period mentioned in the verse prior?  On the basis of what would one come to this conclusion?  You put yourself in conflict with Scripture when you try to go down the path that it is also the last 3-1/2 year period, something that we agree does not begin until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and something that crosses with 11:14, which reads:  "The second woe is past;  and behold, the third woe cometh quickly."  So, what do we do with this?  You want to put the preceding verses in parentheses and regard them all as pertaining to the last half of the week.  But, this doesn't change 11:14.  By my math, if the two 3-1/2 year time frames spoken of in 11:2-3 are the same and "past",  we wouldn't be seeing the other 3-1/2 year time frame mentioned three times during the 7th Trumpet period (12:6, 14;  13:5)!  Therefore, my conclusion and position is that what "is past" is in reference to what has just been expounded, meaning 11:3-13.  Don't forget II Timothy 2:15.

Whatever you are believing about what you say that Jesus spoke to you, He is not going to speak to you something that crosses with Scripture.  Now my brother, I'm not calling into question whether the Lord spoke to you.  But, do you think it is possible that you mistook an element of what He meant?  I would at least encourage you to go to Him further about this---next time Bible in hand.

[not an echo]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:33 AM, iamlamad said:

On 1/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

Hopefully I will have time for at least one installment tonight.

It seems that your objection revolves around what you say in your last sentence:  "Paul is clear that HIS rapture (1 thes 4& 5) will come before wrath."  What do you think I am saying differently?  Now really, I'm not asking you this because I'm at a loss for what you are getting at.  Rather, I'm hoping that when you try to answer it, you will see more clearly where I am coming from.  If you don't, then we will probably just continue going in circles.

I think we both agree that the rapture will come just before the start of God's wrath. Our difference is, where on an end time timeline you imagine God's wrath beginning, and where on that same timeline you believe the 70th week begins.

Concerning your opening sentence, I agree, but because of all the discussions/disagreements that are had on this, I prefer to say it differently.  I prefer to say something that reflects that the rapture will come just before the period of the last days Day of the Lord judgment commences.  The way you prefer to say it can be taken to mean something like just before the pouring out of the vials, if you know what I mean.

Concerning your second sentence, it will be after the opening of the 6th Seal---just after the Church is gathered---that the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will commence.  It will be at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) and maybe longer (Rev. 9:15) before the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week begins, evidenced by the "little book" of Daniel being seen "open" in chapter 10 (vs. 2/Dan. 12:4, 8-10) and what we see in the opening three verses of chapter 11.

On 1/9/2023 at 10:33 AM, iamlamad said:

I see John has a very clear timeline of 7 seals, then 7 trumpets, and finally 7 vials. These are written very chronologically from Revelation chapter 6 to chapter 16.

On this timeline, the 70th week officially will begin at the 7th seal where the book gets opened. I believe the 70th week is what is written inside the book. God marked the 70th week with 7's: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet (midpoint)  and the 7th vial. I think you agree with much of this.

I do see some elements of closeness in what we see, but the "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10/maybe more/9:15) and all that I am seeing will not let me see things the way you are seeing them, if you see what I mean.

Concerning chronology, we may agree on this more than either of us really realize.  I would encourage you to look again at my thread titled, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).    

Concerning your last paragraph, it cannot be shown by Scripture that Daniel's 70th Week begins with the opening of the 7th Seal.

Concerning "what is written inside the book",  the account of the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week certainly is, but the sounding of the first six trumpets, which will precede the beginning of its fulfilling are written of there as well, as is the account of Christ's Second Advent, the Battle of Armageddon, Christ's Millennial Reign, and the Last Judgment.  For a little perspective, if each page in this book equaled one year of time, there would be a little over 1007 pages in it.  And, the last words on the last page of it would read something like this:  And God and all of His saved and all the host of Heaven lived happily ever after!

On 1/9/2023 at 10:33 AM, iamlamad said:

So where on this same timeline does God get angry and begin the Day of His wrath? That would be at the 6th seal, where John wrote, "the day of His wrath is come."

How anyone can move the start of wrath in their imagination to somewhere in the middle of chapters 11 to 16 (the last half of the week) simply amazes me. The 6th seal absolutely cannot be moved. It must remain between seals 5 and 7, and before any part of the 70th week.

Can you explain how you can pull the start of God's wrath from where John and the Holy Spirit placed it - at the 6th seal which will be opened before any part of the 70th week - to somewhere in the last half of the week?

This is like asking why you are post-trib pre-wrath rather than pre-trib.

Concerning your opening paragraph, we are in agreement on this.  I just go further and submit that the 7th Seal is opened the same day as well.  Which means that the same day Christ makes His "sign" appearance for the gathering of the Church (Matt. 24:29-31 & I Thess. 4:16-17), the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will commence (Acts 2:20;  I Thess. 5:1-3; & Rev. 6:17).  This is part of the reason why I submit that THE DAY OF THE LORD would be a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book.

Concerning the rest of your reply, what you are saying doesn't reflect anything about my position at all.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

...

Concerning your second sentence, it will be after the opening of the 6th Seal---just after the Church is gathered---that the period of the last days' DOTL judgment will commence.  It will be at least "five months" (Rev. 9:5, 10) and maybe longer (Rev. 9:15) before the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week begins, evidenced by the "little book" of Daniel being seen "open" in chapter 10 (vs. 2/Dan. 12:4, 8-10) and what we see in the opening three verses of chapter 11.

...

Please tell me where you see the Week starting and why you think that is where it starts.

As for the 5 months, This is just one out of the first 6 trumpet judgments. Since I know that the Week will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment, I know that the first six seals will take up the first 42 months. Let's suppose that the FIRST SIX of the trumpet judgments each take two months to accomplish with a two month reprieve between them. That would allocate 7 months for each and 7 times 6 trumpets equals 42 months. 

I am not saying each one WILL be 5 months, I am only saying each one COULD be 5 months. I am not saying God WILL  give a space between trumpets for people to repent either. I am only suggesting that He could.

The one thing I am sure of is that the first 42 months will cover the first six trumpets with the 7th trumpet marking the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God—the God of the Jews, and the God of creation.

I wonder why you find it so difficult to believe the words Jesus spoke to me? Do they not fit what is written?

"You can find the exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

My spirit man asked Him: "How would I find that?" He answered, 

"Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the ENTIRE 70th WEEK 'clearly marked.'"

I think we both agree that the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint. God has therefore "marked" the entire week with sevens: 7th seal—7th trumpet—7th vial.

For confirmation, at the 7th vial we read:

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. Then a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It ·is finished [is done; has come to pass]!” (EXB)

We could ask, and probably SHOULD ask, WHAT is finished? We have two possibilities: either the DAY is finished, or the WEEK is finished. I believe it is the WEEK that is finished.

Therefore, we have nailed down the MIDPOINT and the END of the week and find they are marked by sevens. Does it not then make good sense that it was JESUS who spoke to me and said that HE had marked the entire 70th week? 

More confirmation: at the 7th seal opening there is 30 minutes of silence. I believe that is the perfect way to BEGIN the time of Jacob's Trouble - the 70th week of Daniel.

There is MORE confirmation: Daniel wrote that the ANGEL said, the Week was for Daniel's people, the Jews and Hebrews. You have the church going through part of the Week. That alone should tell you your theory is off.

9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

A CERTAIN hour of a CERTAIN day of a CERTAIN month of a CERTAIN year...All this is telling us is that God knows the EXACT HOUR in a certain month of a certain year that these angels will be loosed. In no way is this giving us duration timing.