Over-comers and the Second Death

[David1701]

On 11/26/2022 at 10:30 AM, Mr. M said:

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

Just a couple of observations as I was listening to the Spirit on being an over-comer, and He mentioned

"the second death". I knew of this statement made at the close of one of the messages to the churches. 

If one aspect of being an over-comer is deliverance from the second death, this implies that those who fail

to overcome will be held accountable by the same ministration.

To be an over-comer also reflects in my mind upon these words of Christ:

"but he who endures to the end will be saved". Matthew 24:13

The second observation is the statement "shall not be hurt by the 2nd death."

This reflects in my mind upon this teaching by Paul:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss;

but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

And then John:

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

All judgment is directly proportional to each individual's life works (i.e. a just recompense

of reward/punishment)  and the lake of fire is able to be applied to each individual proportionally.

Some escape unharmed, some suffer great loss, but are saved. And then there are acts of unrighteousness

that are unto death, and we are instructed to not even pray over those sins.

16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask,

and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death.

I do not say that he should pray about that.

The remaining statements with regards to the second death are found in Revelation 20/21.

Revelation 20:

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The second death has no power over them, for they refused to worship the Beast.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for

the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received

his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. 

This is the second death.

After the final judgment, there is no longer death, or a place for Hades.

Revelation 21:

4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.

There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

Over-comers in the last days refuse to worship the beast or receive his mark. They are blessed with victory

over the second death, and reign for 1000 years. This is the first of two end times resurrections.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the first resurrection. 

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,

but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters,

and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They are those who receive a full reward of inheritance.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for,

but that we may receive a full reward.

Overcomers are those who have been born again.

1 John 5:4 (ESV) For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

[LuftWaffle]

14 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I might agree with you, but with this account I doubt it is symbolic
Luke 16:23-25 (KJV) [23]
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
 

Like times before you've completely ignored versus 27-30

The Lazarus parable doesn't contradict annihilationism in the slightest, because:
a) It doesn't depict the fate of the wicked after judgement day. We know this because Lazarus wants his brothers who are still alive, to repent.

Luke 16:27-30 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

b) It doesn't claim to be the eternal state of the unsaved.

Thus, as a prooftext for eternal conscious torment as the final fate of the wicked, the parable is irrelevant because it takes place prior to the Great Day of Judgement

It's fascinating that you continually bring up this prooftext and then ignore the above responses to it, only to bring up the prooftext again later when the topic comes up.
The great thing about Annihilationism is that doesn't require one to ignore certain Bible versus

[LuftWaffle]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Theographical: From Greek theos, God + graphia, description. 

- pertaining to a place or thing in the Divine Realm as distinct from the Natural Realm. 

Do you not believe in a bodily resurrection for both the saved and the unsaved, then? Or am I misunderstanding the distinction between a divine place versus a natural place?

[Michael37]

20 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Do you not believe in a bodily resurrection for both the saved and the unsaved, then? Or am I misunderstanding the distinction between a divine place versus a natural place?

I believe there is a distinction between redeemed spiritual matter and unredeemed natural matter, but I do not believe in the disembodiment of the saved and unsaved in their resurrections.

Rom 8:22-23  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  (23)  Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
 

1Co 15:42-44  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  (43)  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  (44)  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:46-49  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  (47)  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.  (48)  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  (49)  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Blessings from Michael37.
 

[LuftWaffle]

37 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

I believe there is a distinction between redeemed spiritual matter and unredeemed natural matter, but I do not believe in the disembodiment of the saved and unsaved in their resurrections.

Rom 8:22-23  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  (23)  Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
 

1Co 15:42-44  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.  (43)  It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.  (44)  It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:46-49  However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.  (47)  The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.  (48)  As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.  (49)  And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Blessings from Michael37.
 

Ok, thanks for the clarification and I totally agree with that. There are many people who hold that the ultimate state is a disembodied state (and that the physical is profane). There's plenty of scriptural evidence to the contrary to such a view, which you have provided

I guess I'm still not sure what makes a Theographical place different from say, the world we live in now? If you hold that human beings on earth are a combination of physical embodiment as well as spirit, and the unsaved in hell will also be physical embodied, but have a spiritual aspect, then what makes a Theographical place different from a non-Theographical place. Can you offer an example of a non-Theographical place?

[Michael37]

11 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Ok, thanks for the clarification and I totally agree with that. There are many people who hold that the ultimate state is a disembodied state (and that the physical is profane). There's plenty of scriptural evidence to the contrary to such a view, which you have provided

I guess I'm still not sure what makes a Theographical place different from say, the world we live in now? If you hold that human beings on earth are a combination of physical embodiment as well as spirit, and the unsaved in hell will also be physical embodied, but have a spiritual aspect, then what makes a Theographical place different from a non-Theographical place. Can you offer an example of a non-Theographical place?

By definition anywhere that can be found on earth is geographical. Some folk think the abyss that Satan is bound and cast into for a thousand years is located on earth and offer geographical co-ordinates for it. They struggle with the abstract concept of it being a metaphysical or theographical place of God's design distinct from this material and temporal Creation.

Likewise we think of heaven as being in a place that is physically upward of wherever we happen to be, but if that is true for everyone everywhere on earth . . . you get the drift . . . hence my use of the term theographical to describe a place or a thing of God's Design distinct from the material world we observe through our physical senses.

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Like times before you've completely ignored versus 27-30

The Lazarus parable doesn't contradict annihilationism in the slightest, because:
a) It doesn't depict the fate of the wicked after judgement day. We know this because Lazarus wants his brothers who are still alive, to repent.

Luke 16:27-30 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

b) It doesn't claim to be the eternal state of the unsaved.

Thus, as a prooftext for eternal conscious torment as the final fate of the wicked, the parable is irrelevant because it takes place prior to the Great Day of Judgement

It's fascinating that you continually bring up this prooftext and then ignore the above responses to it, only to bring up the prooftext again later when the topic comes up.
The great thing about Annihilationism is that doesn't require one to ignore certain Bible versus

You can sum this up in the simple obvious of Scripture:
Since Jesus gave this account of Lazarus and the rich man, he, the rich man, is still there awaiting this time:
Revelation 20:11-14 (KJV)
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So this man has been existing in this state:
Luke 16:24 (KJV)
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
For 2 thousand plus years awaiting the time of judgment, mentioned above at the great white throne, and for what ever your sensibilities demand of you - you are saying that the lake of fire will not torment the rich man forever…  sorry but this sounds more humanistic than the leading of Scripture.

[enoob57]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

By definition anywhere that can be found on earth is geographical. Some folk think the abyss that Satan is bound and cast into for a thousand years is located on earth and offer geographical co-ordinates for it. They struggle with the abstract concept of it being a metaphysical or theographical place of God's design distinct from this material and temporal Creation.

Likewise we think of heaven as being in a place that is physically upward of wherever we happen to be, but if that is true for everyone everywhere on earth . . . you get the drift . . . hence my use of the term theographical to describe a place or a thing of God's Design distinct from the material world be observe through our physical senses.

I have considered this reality God has told to us:
1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (KJV)
[9] But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
[10] But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
I understand that the new heaven and earth shall have no comparatives to what is now or this truth could not be written above as is…

Coupled with this truth from God:
Luke 1:37 (KJV)
[37] For with God nothing shall be impossible.

God also said this:
Luke 18:16 (KJV)
[16] But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Combining these truths one must considered we cannot even imagine the realities that await us, however, we hold to this more than to the present life… For what we have is s/Spirit and it’s substance is purely The Word of God producing a faith that cannot be shaken and is totally not reliant upon that which is being destroyed and totally forgotten… This for me is s/Spirit and is totally separated out from that of this world and flesh…

[WilliamL]

On 11/28/2022 at 7:44 AM, AdHoc said:

Leaven is a wondrous thing, but it is always negative in the Bible.

This is by far the most common view, but it is not biblical.

Jesus revealed the true biblical meaning of leaven:

Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” ... 16 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Leaven = doctrine. There is good doctrine, and there is bad doctrine.

These things were perfectly well symbolized in the Torah. In the Feast of Unleavened Bread, leaven is to be removed. This symbolized the removal of the false doctrines of Egypt at the time the Israelites left. However, when Pentecost then came next in the religious calendar, leavened bread was to be offered to the LORD:

Leviticus 23:17 ‘You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread as a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.

What changed? The Torah was given to Israel on the very day of Pentecost: the new, unblemished doctrine.

Righteous doctrine is the righteous leaven for our lives. Unrighteous doctrine corrupts our lives.

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This is by far the most common view, but it is not biblical.

Jesus revealed the true biblical meaning of leaven:

Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” ... 16 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Leaven = doctrine. There is good doctrine, and there is bad doctrine.

These things were perfectly well symbolized in the Torah. In the Feast of Unleavened Bread, leaven is to be removed. This symbolized the removal of the false doctrines of Egypt at the time the Israelites left. However, when Pentecost then came next in the religious calendar, leavened bread was to be offered to the LORD:

Leviticus 23:17 ‘You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread as a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.

What changed? The Torah was given to Israel on the very day of Pentecost: the new, unblemished doctrine.

Righteous doctrine is the righteous leaven for our lives. Unrighteous doctrine corrupts our lives.

Hallelujah. Good News.

Flour with Leaven Spreading:
Mat 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."