Over-comers and the Second Death

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This is by far the most common view, but it is not biblical.

Jesus revealed the true biblical meaning of leaven:

Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” ... 16 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Leaven = doctrine. There is good doctrine, and there is bad doctrine.

These things were perfectly well symbolized in the Torah. In the Feast of Unleavened Bread, leaven is to be removed. This symbolized the removal of the false doctrines of Egypt at the time the Israelites left. However, when Pentecost then came next in the religious calendar, leavened bread was to be offered to the LORD:

Leviticus 23:17 ‘You shall bring in from your dwelling places two loaves of bread as a wave offering, made of two-tenths of an ephah; they shall be of a fine flour, baked with leaven as first fruits to the LORD.

What changed? The Torah was given to Israel on the very day of Pentecost: the new, unblemished doctrine.

Righteous doctrine is the righteous leaven for our lives. Unrighteous doctrine corrupts our lives.

Not so my friend. You chopped the sentence. It is not Leaven = Doctrine BUT "Leaven = Doctrine of the Pharisees".

Well have you pointed out Leviticus 23:17, but you missed the point. The Chapter connects the Feast of Israel with the harvests. In a harvest there are three gatherings; (i) Firstfruits, (ii) general harvest, and (iii) gleanings. Passover is the harvest of the winter crop and its Firstfruit is Jesus - THUS NO LEAVEN. But Pentecost is aligned with the firstfruits of the first summer crop and its Firstfruits are the Firstfruits of the Church - sinners - THUS LEAVEN.

[WilliamL]

2 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

It is not Leaven = Doctrine BUT

No, it is not "Leaven = Doctrine of the Pharisees," it is "Leaven (of the Pharisees) = Doctrine (of the Pharisees)". Simple equation if you know basic math logic. Deleting "of the Pharisees" equally on each side of the equation gives one the core idea. One cannot delete it on one side but not the other, as you did.

7 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Passover is the harvest of the winter crop and its Firstfruit is Jesus - THUS NO LEAVEN. But Pentecost is aligned with the firstfruits of the first summer crop and its Firstfruits are the Firstfruits of the Church - sinners - THUS LEAVEN.

You better go back and study the religious cycle. Passover and Unleavened Bread come when the ears of barley are still green, and the wheat is in the blade. Both are winter crops harvested later, except for the first sheaf of barley at the first Sunday wave offering, when Jesus ascended to heaven.

The Firstfruits of Christ are accounted as being without sin because of the blood of Christ. These being all who have believed -- have been leavened with -- the doctrine of Christ.

[AdHoc]

24 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

No, it is not "Leaven = Doctrine of the Pharisees," it is "Leaven (of the Pharisees) = Doctrine (of the Pharisees)". Simple equation if you know basic math logic. Deleting "of the Pharisees" equally on each side of the equation gives one the core idea. One cannot delete it on one side but not the other, as you did.

I'm afraid that is not correct. 

12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but (leaven - implied) of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees (Matt.16:12)

There is not a single scripture where leaven is positive.

30 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

You better go back and study the religious cycle. Passover and Unleavened Bread come when the ears of barley are still green, and the wheat is in the blade. Both are winter crops harvested later, except for the first sheaf of barley at the first Sunday wave offering, when Jesus ascended to heaven.

The Firstfruits of Christ are accounted as being without sin because of the blood of Christ. These being all who have believed -- have been leavened with -- the doctrine of Christ.

"Religious cycle"??? Is that how we annul "out of YOUR habitations". I think that if scripture says that the meal offering at the harvest at Pentecost should be WITH Leaven, and the harvest of Pentecost was men who have to "REPENT" and who "had wicked hands of murder", then things should be clear. But I'll wait for your scriptures, AND who you say the Meal offering was to Yahweh WITH LEAVEN at Pentecost.

I must say that I have seldom seen such an effort to prove Leaven positive. But your scriptures should tell.

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, AdHoc said:

There is not a single scripture where leaven is positive.

Not that you can see, but others see the positive aspect of the Gospel spreading like leaven.

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hallelujah. Good News.

Flour with Leaven Spreading:
Mat 13:33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

 

[LuftWaffle]

15 hours ago, enoob57 said:

You can sum this up in the simple obvious of Scripture:
Since Jesus gave this account of Lazarus and the rich man, he, the rich man, is still there awaiting this time:
Revelation 20:11-14 (KJV)
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So this man has been existing in this state:
Luke 16:24 (KJV)
[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
For 2 thousand plus years awaiting the time of judgment, mentioned above at the great white throne, and for what ever your sensibilities demand of you - you are saying that the lake of fire will not torment the rich man forever…  sorry but this sounds more humanistic than the leading of Scripture.

Revelation 20:11-14 does not say what you claim it says.
It clearly states that death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them. So even if Lazarus was tormented until the day of judgement, that is still prior to the day of judgement.
So contrary to what you're asserting, the very prooftexts that you've offered supports my view and not yours, which is that Luke 16 is not a description of the final state of the wicked, but at best an interim state where the wicked dead await final judgement. 

But Revelation goes further stating that death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, after which they are found no more. 

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Moreover, the interpreting Angel in John's vision clearly interprets the symbol of the lake of fire as referring to the second death.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Which of course is confirmed by hundreds of texts stating that the result of sin is death, here's but two examples:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

So instead of just lazily reading 'fire' in Luke 16 and 'fire' in Revelation 20 and concluding 'eternal conscious fiery torment' while totally ignoring context or genre and at the same time falsely labelling those who disagree with you 'humanists', try to actually read what John and Luke have written. 

But at least you've responded this time, so thanks for that. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by LuftWaffle

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Not that you can see, but others see the positive aspect of the Gospel spreading like leaven.

 

I realize that this is a widespread understanding. But it defies the evidence.

First and foremost, no interpretation of private means is allowed (2nd Pet.1:20). That is, any parable or prophecy, especially the obscure, must be first understood in the light of other scriptures, and secondly by nature (Romans 1). The setting for the seven parables of Matthew 13 is outright rejection of Messiah by Israel in Chapter 12. Our Lord is attributed the power of Beelzebub and He in turn denies His connection with Israel in the form of His blood-brethren at the end of Chapter 12. He leaves not only the "House" (of His brethren and mother), but also leaves  the "sea shore" (the seed of Abraham).

The follows FOUR parables to the crowd. But the parables cloud every understanding except the "disciple". Jews, Samaritans, Assyrian and Gentile, wise and slow, rich and poor, are left with no profit from the parables. But the disciple receives light and admit it (v.51). The parables all start "The Kingdom of Heaven is like ... ". That is, neither the Church nor the Gospel are in view. A Kingdom is a sphere or area where a residing king exercises authority. The Church has no King. It has a "Head". Ad the Gospel has no King but "ministers" (servants). I do not deny that here is a connection between all three, but this Chapter follows the rejection of the Jewish King

The first four all depict some loss.

1. The sower receives no fruit from THREE/FOURTHS of his sowing

2. The sower of good seed has his field polluted by tares that bring forth poison at the harvest

3. The mustard bush is a small bush with a piquant fruit. For it to turn into a Tree of Nebuchadnezzar (Dan.4), something very damaging happened. There is also no record of fruit from the mustard seed.

4. The lump of dough is the Kingdom of Heaven. By a ploy of leavening a part at a time, the whole lump is soon leavened. Leaven is described as two things in the New Testament. (i) The doctrine of the Pharisee and Sadducee. (2) Grievous and defiling sin in the body (1st Cor.5). In the Old Testament it is banned from all connection to the Passover and life after it (1st Cor.5:7). That is, in every other mention of leaven, it is something negative. Leaven makes the bread be something that it is not, and it makes it more palatable.

That is, Leaven s always negative, and it is especially negative within the setting of Matthew 13.

Added to this, in parable, we have TWO WOMEN in scripture. The first one is a whore called Mystery Babylon the Great. She fornicates with the peoples and kings of this earth. She is mother to more whores. Presently, she sits on seven hills and is drunk with martyrs' blood. The second Woman of Parable is New Jerusalem. She is a mother too and represents the completed work of God on earth. Which Woman of Parable is likely to "leaven" God's Kingdom?

[enoob57]

death is not cessation of existence but separation from God

8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Revelation 20:11-14 does not say what you claim it says.
It clearly states that death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them. So even if Lazarus was tormented until the day of judgement, that is still prior to the day of judgement.
So contrary to what you're asserting, the very prooftexts that you've offered supports my view and not yours, which is that Luke 16 is not a description of the final state of the wicked, but at best an interim state where the wicked dead await final judgement. 

Your claim is cessation of existence and that is what I showed you was not true as in Lazarus and the rich man... It also shows God willing to torment them for thousands of years till final judgement and then eternity of such... The Bible supports eternal suffering of beings:
Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Here is some good scholarly work on eternality of hell:
(from The MacArthur New Testament Commentary, Copyright © Moody Press and John MacArthur, Jr., 1983-2007.)
Hell is a place of both mental (Dan 12:2; Matt 8:12; 13:42,50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28) and physical torment (Rev 14:10-11; Matt 25:41; Mark 9:43-44; Luke 16:23-24). Those sentenced to that terrible place will be tormented day and night. There will not be a moment's relief forever and ever. Scripture explicitly teaches that hell is eternal. The same Greek phrase translated forever and ever is used in Rev 1:18 to speak of Christ's eternity; in Rev 4:9-10; Rev 10:6, and Rev 15:7 of God's eternity; and in Rev 11:15 of the duration of Christ's reign. Unbelievers will "be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night" (Rev 14:10-11). Jesus taught that the punishment of the wicked is as eternal as the eternal life of the righteous (Matt 25:46). He also taught that hell is a place of "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43), "where their worm does not die" (Mark 9:48). 2 Thess 1:9 teaches that the destruction of the wicked in hell stretches throughout all eternity. (For a summary of the arguments that the punishment in hell is eternal, see Richard L. Mayhue, "Hell: Never, Forever, or Just for Awhile?" The Master's Seminary Journal 9 [Fall 1998]: 129-45. This entire issue of The Master's Seminary Journal is devoted to the topic of the eternality of hell.)
 

8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

But Revelation goes further stating that death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, after which they are found no more. 

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Moreover, the interpreting Angel in John's vision clearly interprets the symbol of the lake of fire as referring to the second death.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

when there are two groups of people in different places you do not expect what happens to one group will happen to the other... besides the plain sense of Scripture
as MacArthur has put forth:
mental involvement:
Daniel 12:2 (KJV)

[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 8:12 (KJV)

[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:42 (KJV)

[42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13 (KJV)

[13] Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:27 (KJV)

[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Physical involvement:
Revelation 14:10 (KJV)
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mark 9:43-44 (KJV)
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:23-24 (KJV)
[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

The preponderance of Scripture does not support your views...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael37]

14 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I realize that this is a widespread understanding. But it defies the evidence.

Not according to a bunch of commentaries on Lev 23:17.

Lev 23:17  You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD.

In the natural, leaven provides everyday nourishment, hence the inclusion at Pentecost.

[LuftWaffle]

@enoob57

Your response consists of 3 parts.

Part 1 appears to be just strawman arguments about what I'm claiming, what death is, and the usual bold assertions that Eternal Conscious Torment is the truth, as if it would come as a surprise to me that you believe what you claim you believe.

You do offer Matthew 25:41 as proof of eternal conscious torment. This verse refers to the fire being eternal though, not the beings thrown into it.
'Eternal fire' is no more proof of the eternal deathless burning as drowning someone in an eternal sea would prove an eternal deathless drowning. So just a basic understanding of English is sufficient to see that the verse doesn't actually say what you claim it says. There is not a single verse in all of scripture that explicitly states that the unsaved are immortal, but there are plenty of verses stating explicitly that immortality is only given to the saved. Refer once more to John 3:16, which you've ignored.

But furthermore, 'eternal fire' is a term used elsewhere in scripture so we can use scripture to interpret scripture
Jude 4 mentions the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities as an example of what undergoing punishment of eternal fire looks like.

Jud 4: just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Are the cities burning to this day? Nope. Are the cities everlasting? Nope.
So it seems safe to conclude Jude and Matthew are not teaching us about eternal conscious torment, but are instead using a term referring to fire from heaven having an eternal source. This eternal fire will destroy the wicked like it destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

Part 2 of your post involved sharing the opinions of traditionalist theologian John MacArthur. It's always fascinating to me that it's usually the traditionalists who, without fail, are the first ones to appeal to human authorities when it comes to defending eternal conscious torment. The same people who are also the first to accuse those who disagree with them of 'humanism', 'dogmatism' or 'human-centredmess' etc.

Quoting a traditionalist scholar in a debate on traditionalism is about as useful as quoting an Islamic scholar on the veracity of Islam. It's only impressive if you're the sort of person that's impressed by counting scholars who agree with you.

Part 3 of your response is a shotgun approach where you're just throwning out every eternal conscious torment prooftext you can find. None of these really offer any support for your claims about Luke 16 though, it's mostly just an exercise in question-begging at this stage.
You began by offering Luke 16 as a prooftext for eternal conscious torment, but now that that hasn't worked out, you're offering up other prooftexts for Eternal Conscious Torment to justify your original reading of Eternal Conscious Torment into Luke 16.

This is the problem with the Eternal Conscious Torment view as a whole. It's based on bad exegesis of a handful of 'prooftexts' propped by dogmatism and appeals to scholarly authority. 

Any single one of the 'prooftexts' are too weak and too far a stretch to support the doctrine, so defenders of Eternal Conscious Torment must quickly hop from Luke 16 to Matt 25 to Rev 14 like a toad on a lily pads, taking care not to linger too long on any single one lest they sink.

The one direct response you did offer though, and I commend you on that is were I quoted Rev 21:4

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

You stated:

20 hours ago, enoob57 said:

when there are two groups of people in different places you do not expect what happens to one group will happen to the other

The problem with that claim though is that Revelation 21:4 doesn't simply say that the unsaved as a group needn't worry about sorrow or death. Instead Revelation states that death and sorrow will be 'NO MORE'. It states that there is a new heaven and a new earth and the former things are gone. So making it about groups of people is once again reading things that aren't there.

But there's a broader point to be made: According to your view death, sorrow, sin and evil are not in fact dealt with at all. They're simply relegated to some dark corner of the universe. According to eternal conscious torment the unsaved are immortal, and indestructible, and God can do nothing but rage against them, while they keep on sinning and doing evil forever.

According to you God cannot eliminate evil. God can merely quarantine it.

But the good news is that you're wrong and so are the scholars like John MacArthur you've entrusted your beliefs to. 
The One who abhors evil will deal with it. Jesus hasn't merely eluded death, He has conquered it!

Edited December 8, 2022 by LuftWaffle

[enoob57]

8 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

Part 1 appears to be just strawman arguments about what I'm claiming, what death is, and the usual bold assertions that Eternal Conscious Torment is the truth, as if it would come as a surprise to me that you believe what you claim you believe.

There is nothing straw man about it... your teaching cessation of existence and Bible does not teach such... I gave you the reality of Lazarus and the rich man and that for two thousand plus years he has been awaiting the great white throne of judgment ... if that isn't enough to convince you that God provides conscious torment for those who oppose Him then nothing will... it is enough for me.