Reconciling 6 Days with 13.7 Billion Years

[Tristen]

6 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

To me, it's not a big leap in thinking that there may be a space between Genesis 1:1 & 1:2

Hi VA,

As a thought experiment, are we also permitted to use this interpretation technique for the rest of scripture when we are uncomfortable with what is written?

That is, anytime we wish scripture said something other than what it does, are we permitted to presumptively insert masses of information from non-Christian sources, between sentences, such as to make the scripture say what we want it to say, rather than what it actually says?

"To me", that is a very concerning precedent to set regarding what is permissible when interpreting scripture.

 

[Vine Abider]

17 minutes ago, Tristen said:

Hi VA,

As a thought experiment, are we also permitted to use this interpretation technique for the rest of scripture when we are uncomfortable with what is written?

That is, anytime we wish scripture said something other than what it does, are we permitted to presumptively insert masses of information from non-Christian sources, between sentences, such as to make the scripture say what we want it to say, rather than what it actually says?

"To me", that is a very concerning precedent to set regarding what is permissible when interpreting scripture.

 

That is one way to dismiss the idea without looking at its merits . . . Google search "And the earth became formless and void" and you will find many references regarding why the word traditionally translated "was" can also be translated "became."  Of course, you will also find many to the contrary, telling why it should be translated the traditional way.

Nonetheless, take a look and see what you think.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Vine Abider
For better clarity

[Tristen]

7 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

That is one way to dismiss the idea without looking at its merits . . . Google search "And the earth became formless and void" and you will find many references regarding why the word traditionally translated "was" can also be translated "became."  Of course, you will also find many to the contrary, telling why it should be translated the traditional way.

Nonetheless, take a look and see what you think.

I think you dodged the question, and its obvious implications.

So let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the correct interpretation is "And the earth became formless and void". Is it possible that something could 'become' formless and void in the span of a day? Or is more time necessarily required for the claim to make sense? And would that mean we are free now to squeeze 14 billion years of secular, cosmological, historical storytelling into the Biblical narrative?

In terms of the rules of grammar, there is always room between sentences to add more information to change the intended meaning of an author - if we have an agenda to do so. The question is, do we, as Christians, permit ourselves this liberty with the Word of God. And if that is permitted as a precedent, and we can change God's Word to mean whatever we choose, where then is God's authority in His own Word?

 

[HAZARD]

There were two great floods on the Earth, 1. we shall call Lucifer's flood brought upon the Earth because of Lucifer's rebellion, and 2. Noah's flood caused by the rebellion of man. Many Scriptures show there was a great difference between them, all we need do is read every one and believe what we read.

 

The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifer's rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.

Lucifer's flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.

Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.

Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??

Noah's flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifer's flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).

The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noah's flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.

There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).

Rev. 4:11).

In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26).

All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20).

Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood.

No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?

The only time the earth has ever been without form and void was before the 6 days of Gen. 1:3-2:25 when it was made chaos through the fall of Lucifer and the pre-adamites, when God brought the first Great universal flood upon the earth to destroy all life (Gen. 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-7).

The statement without form and void means desolate and empty.

The only time when the sun, moon and stars of heaven were forbidden to give light on the earth was in the period before the six days of re-creation, as in Gen. 1;2. There had been light on the earth when it was first created, in the beginning Gen. 1;1, and there has been light ever since the first day of Gen. 1:3-31; so the period of such darkness took place on the earth some time after the beginning and before the restoration to a second habitable state in the six days of Gen. 1:3-2:25. Permanent and eternal laws were given to the sun, moon, and stars at this time as proved by Jer. 31:35-36; Gen. 1:14-19; Ps. 72:5, 17; 89:35-37.

The mountains and hills have been moved and will yet by moved by earthquakes, but there never has been a time since Adam to this day, nor will there ever be a time from our day into all eternity that the earth has been or will be without a man, bird, or fruitful place, as seen by Jeremiah, and referred to in V 25. Therefore we are required by facts to associate Jer. 4:23-26 with the same time as that of Gen.1:2;  and we are made to realise that there were men, birds, and fruitful places on the earth before Adam's time that were destroyed by the flood of Gen. 1:2; 2 Peter 3:5-7.

One thing is certain, Jer. 4:23-26 could not apply to the time of Noah, for at that time the heavens had lights, and there were men, birds, and fruitful places left on the earth after the flood; whereas, in the case of the curse brought upon the original earth, none of these things remained.

Therefore, if we rightly divide the Word of Truth we should associate Jer. 23-26 with Gen. 1:2 and 2 Peter 3:5-6, recognising that there had been light, fixed mountains and hills, men, birds, fruitful places and cities on the earth before this curse, and before Adam and the six day work of restoration to a second habitable state as in Gen. 1:3-2; 25.

The purpose of God showing Jeremiah the totally destruction of life on the earth in Jer. 4:23-26 was to reveal how the Land of Judah would be destroyed, and to make comparison between the two times. In the original judgment on the whole earth all life had been destroyed but in Judah God was to make an exception; He declared He would not make a full end as on the original earth.

[Michael37]

On 12/8/2022 at 3:33 PM, Tristen said:

A common strategy for those promoting the secular, long age, model, is to find a grammatical pause in the text, and insist that all that storytelling about time and evolution can be squeezed in between sentences. 

The only evidence that the first verses of Genesis should be understood differently (in any language) comes from those with an agenda to rewrite Genesis history to conform to their own preferred model of history.

 

Ironically, under the heading, "The evidence, the evidence…", no actual "evidence" is provided for scrutiny - only exaggerated, Unsupported Assertions.

"It is preposterous to state that the entire universe was created in six days and that every process necessary for life was completed in this period of time. Primarily because the text of Genesis 1:1 does not state this,"

The preponderance of historical literature on the subject teaches us that most people who have read Genesis 1:1-5 (including Hebrew readers) understand the passage in the same way - i.e. that the described events occurred on the first day of creation. So, apart from an ancillary agenda to rewrite the narrative, that is the most straight forward reading of the text. Therefore, claiming such a statement to be "preposterous" is purely rhetorical - an Appeal to Ridicule (fallacy).

"and secondly because scientists today are able to measure the age of the universe and conclude with certainty that nearly 14 billions years have passed since the original expansion of the universe began"

Here, the author's lack of scientific literacy is exposed. Not even experimental/operational science permits the ability to "conclude" anything "with certainty". That level of absolute confidence is simply not permitted by the logic governing the Scientific Method. It is therefore more absurd to suggest that "certainty" could be logically ascertained via the historical modelling method (a logical departure from the robustness of the Scientific Method).

I admire the effort - but all this article demonstrates to me is the degree to which someone who is compelled to support the secular narrative is prepared to go - tying themselves into logical pretzels, rather than simply accepting the most straight-forward reading of the text.

Well said @Tristen Some have never given thought to God's six day economy providing the Universe with all the attributes that are currently attributed to millions of years. 

No doubt Adam and Eve could have passed for twenty-year-olds on the first day of their life.

[Starise]

I'll just straight up say I don't know but I would really like to know. None of the discussions usually bring me any closer to a resolution. 

For one thing, both sides seem so very sure of themselves. At one time I thought a very literal reading was best, that is until I realized there was more to the inner workings of  the talking snake than meets the eye. We know he was Lucifer, but the rabbit hole gets deeper. This is only one of the things about Genesis that call for further study. A 6 year old sunday school class ok. A more informed group not so much. 

Both sides say surely it MUST be this way because it CAN'T be the other way. I know God made it all regardless of how long it all took, so should any of it really matter to me?  I want to know all I can know, but I also realize there are limitations to my ability to fully understand everything that went down.

Was God trying to make a very complicated story into a condensed version for the appetites of all readers? I would say yes, but at the expense of leaving a few mensa members very skeptical. Not that there aren't very bright people on both sides of this. Admittedly, this is about the most simple explanation for creation as compared to the actual complexity of it that could possibly be.

Most churches just go very fast when teaching these things and hope noone asks too many questions. A lot of what we infer comes often from what isn't stated rather than what is stated. We see X and then when we look at valid findings we conclude maybe there was a lot more to it.

I am usually ok being comfortable with just this very brief, very trunciated, very succinct explanation with only a hint of reservation at swallowing the entire made in 6 days enchilada. If I swallow that enchilada, I exclude any other possibilities. Possibilities which would still line up with scripture, so where I tend to end up is that yes, God made everything He said He made in 6 days and in under 10,000 years, but I always allow myself wiggle room for those other possibilities which still fit the narrative. Neither do I want to stretch anything beyond it's elasticity in order to force an idea that doesn't comfortably fit.

If you think that's wishy washy, I'm sorry, but I can't commit to ideas I am not fully informed on. I am not out to discredit scriptures, I am out to rightly understand them. 

[Guest]

Source: Genesis and Creation

You take the Bible as written to the people it was written to. They weren't 21st century theologians, the were people living at the time of the original author as they understood the world. They were not scientists, geologists, doctors, etc. That's why someone with Dr. Michael S. Heiser is meaningful.

Who is Dr. Michael S. Heiser?

[Dr. Heiser] is a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania (M.A., Ancient History) and the University of Wisconsin- Madison (M.A., Ph.D., Hebrew Bible and Semitic Studies). I have a dozen years of classroom teaching experience on the college level and another ten in distance education. I’m currently a Scholar-in-Residence at Logos Bible Software, a company that produces ancient text databases and other digital resources for study of the ancient world and biblical studies. You can get a more detailed answer to my academic background by reading through my CV.

He uses all forms of media to reach the people. Two other researchers (authors) I've been relying on more in the last few years are Dr. Darrell L. Bock and Dr. Ken Johnson.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

You take the Bible as written to the people it was written to.

Those people were the SCRIBES for the words of God written to and for ALL times, not just theirs, AND it is the Holy Spirit that BRINGS FORTH the truth of what is written for whatever 'time' is current.  

One of the best places this is described 

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

6And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Living in the middle of the high desert, very nearly at the Grand Canyon, I have spent days looking deep down into the earth, as I have many a moonless nights looking up into the HEAVENS.  It never crossed my mind that GOD was in any sort of hurry whatsoever, neither did the heavens or the earth being created 'in a week', no matter how much speed talking the laws into existence He is capable of. 
God is long suffering and patient.  What would be the rush?  Did He do nothing but think for a cazillion years or was he having a good time and experimenting?   Since we are made to KNOW Him, and created to be LIKE Him, wouldn't that stand to reason, stop and smell the roses so to speak?  There are over 2000 types of Jellyfish alone.  How long do you think it took Adam just to NAME all the animals?

This worlds beauty and vastness in all kinds of diversity 'speaks' to eternity, and an infinite 'time' RATHER than to a finite time.  He SHOWS us HIS ETERNALNESS, a witness for us to get to know Him in the heavens and the earth, helping us 'TO SEE', so as to know (AND BEFORE we had telescopes to confirm it).  

THE THINGS VISIBLE 'speak' to us of the invisible.  That is what GOD SAYS.  The LAWS of Nature 'show us' His truths.  EVERYTHING had to be spoken and every process proceeds by A LAW that had to be FIGURED OUT, not to mention had to be spoken.  How many 'laws' had to be written for us just to be able to 'type'???  Eyes that see a brain that processes that information, a brain that directs, blood that keeps it alive, a heart that pumps it, air that oxygenates it, bones that create it, food that feeds it...it goes on and on.   


WHY would GOD do NOTHING up until a couple thousand years ago and THEN DO EVERYTHING in just a moment???  It makes no sense.  Why do the WORDS OF GOD make us question the WORKS of God?  I personally don't think they do.  I think it is the TRADITIONS that make us question and dissect even the most basic common sense things, like 'what is a soul'?  HOW is that BUILDING?  

Now, either GOD is a 'God of confusion' and created the heavens TO APPEAR TO BE something they are NOT,
OR
GOD IS NOT about confusion whatsoever and what APPEARS TO BE, is exactly what is.    

Maybe 'Christians' need to bring more common sense into the discussions to get more in touch with THE SPIRIT of the TRUTH, rather than 'the LETTER' of what is written (like the scribes and Pharisees did, getting LOTS of it wrong) and trust in the Holy Spirit SPEAKING TO AND THROUGH US, because when what is written in the Bible SEEMS to conflict with what we can see with our own eyes, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT.  Just saying, it didn't work out well previously, and since it was GOD who CHANGED IT FROM the Letter to the SPIRIT, and DIED for that change, maybe we should heed and learn from it all.

 

Psalms 
(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.

3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.

6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.


20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Repeated but in the Greek way
16 Not for I am ashamed of the gospel {the} power for of God it is unto salvation to everyone believing - to Jewish both first and to Greek  {The} righteousness for of God in it is revealed from faith to faith as it has been written: And the righteous by faith will live is revealed for {the} wrath of God from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, the truth by unrighteousness suppressing. because the known of God manifest is among them, God for to them has revealed {it}.


Jeremiah 31

31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.


Getting lost in another direction, time to stop

[Vine Abider]

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

I have many a moonless nights looking up into the HEAVENS.  It never crossed my mind that GOD was in any sort of hurry whatsoever, neither did the heavens or the earth being created 'in a week', no matter how much speed talking the laws into existence He is capable of. 
God is long suffering and patient.  What would be the rush?  Did He do nothing but think for a cazillion years or was he having a good time and experimenting?   

Never thought about it quite that way . . .  but an interesting thought ----> why would he sit around doing nothing for "a cazillion years," and then get all in a big rush to create things in a short amount of time ?

Edited December 14, 2022 by Vine Abider
Clarity

[DeighAnn]

On 12/11/2022 at 6:04 PM, Tristen said:

In terms of the rules of grammar, there is always room between sentences to add more information to change the intended meaning of an author - if we have an agenda to do so. The question is, do we, as Christians, permit ourselves this liberty with the Word of God. And if that is permitted as a precedent, and we can change God's Word to mean whatever we choose, where then is God's authority in His own Word?

I have a couple of questions I hope you will answer but first, I believe the authority in Gods Word comes from the Holy Spirit, and though I agree there is NOT 'Always room to add more information', 

there is the 'rightly dividing the words of God' and there are places GOD SAYS we are to, as you put it 'insert' pieces of information, as written here in Isa 28

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 22Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.



The rules of grammar.  God didn't make up those rules, at least not as far as I have found.  The problem I have with that is those who should have KNOWN them BEST, the Scribes and Pharisees and Sadducees, GOT it SO WRONG that not only did they MISS the Messiah, the 'spreading' of the gospel was taken away from them.  I think MAYBE we should learn from that and heed what is written a bit more.

2 Corinth 3 

1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


I think the CHURCH isn't acting any differently than those that came before, arguing over 'the dissections of the words of God' never allowing any building by the SPIRIT that gives life, the Spirit of Truth, the leading of the Holy Spirit because it isn't of the traditions handed down through the years and information everyone already knows. 

My question to you is, 'do you believe God FORMED the earth null and void or not?

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


And if yes, then WHEN did this take place and at what point do we see God in the null and void stage?

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

I don't see ANY chaos, nor anything null and void, as GOD describes His creating the earth while the 'sons of God' looked on.  

He MADE THE CLOUD AND THE THICK DARKNESS FOR THE EARTH.  WHY would it be 'made' if it was ALREADY upon it?   I am just wondering how you fit Gen and this together.  Thank you.