Is speaking in tongues the norm ?

[Ocean]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:44 AM, AdHoc said:

The Apostle had just placed a restriction on tongues in the Assembly. Now he adds that al speaking in tongues is a "sign". But it is a very negative sign. It was predicted in Deuteronomy 28 that if Israel broke the Law they would hear a strange tongue all day long. What was meant is found in Jeremiah 5:15. Israelites would be taken to another land and made servants and slaves of a  fearsome nation (Babylon). This nation would speak in a strange tongue not understood by Israelites. So when a babbling of tongues breaks out in an Assembly, it is a sign of unfaithfulness in that Assembly. It is a sobering fact that God tests everything. The test for the Church is the unbeliever. If an unbeliever says anything negative about the order of the Assembly, especially about tongues - you've failed the test.

 

ummm...doesn't that reference to 'strange tongue' (reference to whom the prophet is speaking) apply to being taken captive and taken off to a foreign nation?  I have on several occasions read the same as what you are saying but I do not see this as applicable to NT  gifts of the Spirit through the direction of God. In fact, you reference that very thing regarding captivity in your own post.

While I would hope people follow the instructions in scripture as to the order of the use of the gift of tongues, tongues in a congregation does not 'break out' in reference to unfaithfulness.  That is a new one for me and I have heard plenty.

Tongues are not a one size fits all gift either.  In fact, if there is interpretation, Paul likens the gift to prophecy...so hardly unfaithfulness I would think.  Tongues are obviously not just for a sign for unbelievers or you would not have Paul addressing the proper use of tongues or the fact that some speak in different kinds of tongues.  Sure, there is misuse and abuse of tongues as applies to all the gifts it seems but tongues seems to be one of the most, if not THE most, contested gift.

 

[Ocean]

What I find somewhat amusing, in a sad way, is that I have never come across anyone who would declare the gift of teaching as no longer in use or objectionable...although many are pretty swift to declare this person or that person a false teacher.

We are told to NOT forbid the gift of tongues so it is staring into the dark to do so and continue to do so and that applies across the board.  What is really missing is discernment and teaching on the subject.  Seems many get their instructions from those who just do not believe certain gifts of the Spirit are around anymore.  That, is indicative of someone who is following a false understanding of scripture and has acknowledged the teachings of man rather than the teachings of God.

[Marilyn C]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:46 PM, Wayne222 said:

   Someone on worthy a true believer wrote speaking in tongues is a sign for all believers that there saved. I personally believe this is false. And can be used to overthrow a person's faith in Christ. I do believe sometimes a person by the holy spirit can speak in another tongue. But not the normal experience of true believer. 

Hi Wayne,

I also agree that salvation is in Jesus. Now, what I can see is that people are confusing what is part of the 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit and the private prayer language for the believer.

The 9 gifts of the Holy Spirit for building up the corporate Body of Christ.

`the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all.

1. the word of wisdom,

2. the word of knowledge,

3. faith, (extraordinary)

4. gifts of healing,

5. workings of miracles,

6. prophecy,

7. discernment of spirits,

8. different kinds of tongues,

9. interpretation of tongues.

Private prayer language.

`He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,` (1 Cor. 14: 4)

`if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays,...` (1 Cor. 14: 14)

[AdHoc]

21 minutes ago, Ocean said:

 

ummm...doesn't that reference to 'strange tongue' (reference to whom the prophet is speaking) apply to being taken captive and taken off to a foreign nation?  I have on several occasions read the same as what you are saying but I do not see this as applicable to NT  gifts of the Spirit through the direction of God. In fact, you reference that very thing regarding captivity in your own post.

While I would hope people follow the instructions in scripture as to the order of the use of the gift of tongues, tongues in a congregation does not 'break out' in reference to unfaithfulness.  That is a new one for me and I have heard plenty.

Tongues are not a one size fits all gift either.  In fact, if there is interpretation, Paul likens the gift to prophecy...so hardly unfaithfulness I would think.  Tongues are obviously not just for a sign for unbelievers or you would not have Paul addressing the proper use of tongues or the fact that some speak in different kinds of tongues.  Sure, there is misuse and abuse of tongues as applies to all the gifts it seems but tongues seems to be one of the most, if not THE most, contested gift.

 

Thank you for your balanced an courteous answer. I take any blame if you have misunderstood, but I meant what you pointed out. A language unknown and untranslated and spoken outside of God's order, is a picture of God's judgment - as was Israel judged in Babylon. I've been in Pentecostal gatherings where over 300 people are speaking and singing in unknown and untranslated tongues.

If I've read you correctly, you agree that a whole congregation speaking in tongues is a sign of God's displeasure. He has pointedly ordered a maximum of three such utterances in the Assembly (different from an open air evangelization like Pentecost). He has stipulated that the prophet speak only with a sure knowledge that a translator is present. And He has pointedly left the power to decide and speak with the prophet (v.32)

And I certainly agree with you that God still gives His gifts. Ephesians Chapter 4 has not been canceled or removed from the Bible.

There seems to be some confusion as to who is a prophet or not. I judge that 1st Corinthians 14:3 settles it. Any man that talks to these three things - whether in tongues or not, is a prophet. But some, like Agabus, are especially gifted in foretelling the future. However, we should be wary of such as, unlike Israel, we live by faith - not predictions (Gal.3:11, Heb.10:38).

Have you every noticed that all the gifts are speaking gifts. Even the gift of miracles causes speaking and believing (Act.9:42)

 

[Ocean]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

A language unknown and untranslated and spoken outside of God's order, is a picture of God's judgment - as was Israel judged in Babylon. I've been in Pentecostal gatherings where over 300 people are speaking and singing in unknown and untranslated tongues.

No problem.  I understood what you wrote.  I disagree with your understanding above as I already said. I made no connection to 1 or 1000 people speaking in tongues as a sign of Gods' displeasure.

I said nothing of the kind.  What I did say, is that the misuse of the gifts is something I take exception with.  You cannot take that to mean tongues in particular as I made no connection to tongues there.  When someone says gifts...plural...I take it to mean gifts in general and that is my reference.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He has stipulated that the prophet speak only with a sure knowledge that a translator is present. And He has pointedly left the power to decide and speak with the prophet

The Bible states that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  Thing is, if that is what a person believes themself to be, they would need the rest of the congregation to find that sentiment true.  Sadly, false prophets are running around like (sorry) roaches at this point so it pretty much has become buyer beware.

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

And I certainly agree with you that God still gives His gifts. Ephesians Chapter 4 has not been canceled or removed from the Bible.

We agree on that.  It is a statement of the times we live in though, that rather than people agreeing so or so is a prophet (and here I do not think that refers to the prophets we see in the OT) the person validates themself and commences to make statements that they will say God told them.

AND the worst part?  when these so called prophecies do not come true, nothing happens to the false prophet.  That is not how God sees it though.  You don't get to practice on people until you get it right.  It is or is not from God and that is a major responsibility that I don't believe most consider before they seek a position from a need for attention, possibly power or outright deception thinking they are being led of God when they are being led by a lying spirit.  It all goes on.  

There is also the 'word of knowledge' that people confuse with prophecy.

 

Anyway I have probably said too much now.

 

Going to be away till next week so that's it for now

 

[Ocean]

Sorry...I also meant to say that I do not see how you can make a connection between those words in the OT spoken to people before Christ and the corrections of Paul to the Corinthians or any body of believers who are not following the NT pattern.

God's judgement on those speaking in tongues out of turn or not being translated?

Paul says do all things decently and in order...he never states you are now under God's judgement because you are misusing tongues.

Wouldn't Paul correct in that case rather than tell them they are now under God's judgement?
 

Frankly, I would be more troubled by the teachers calling themselves teachers and God did not call them to be a teacher. Some of these go so far as to state that people speak in tongues by the power of demons.

That, I would think, is the crime quite possibly falling into the category of being under Gods' judgement.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Ocean

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, Ocean said:

No problem.  I understood what you wrote.  I disagree with your understanding above as I already said. I made no connection to 1 or 1000 people speaking in tongues as a sign of Gods' displeasure.

I said nothing of the kind.  What I did say, is that the misuse of the gifts is something I take exception with.  You cannot take that to mean tongues in particular as I made no connection to tongues there.  When someone says gifts...plural...I take it to mean gifts in general and that is my reference.

The Bible states that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.  Thing is, if that is what a person believes themself to be, they would need the rest of the congregation to find that sentiment true.  Sadly, false prophets are running around like (sorry) roaches at this point so it pretty much has become buyer beware.

We agree on that.  It is a statement of the times we live in though, that rather than people agreeing so or so is a prophet (and here I do not think that refers to the prophets we see in the OT) the person validates themself and commences to make statements that they will say God told them.

AND the worst part?  when these so called prophecies do not come true, nothing happens to the false prophet.  That is not how God sees it though.  You don't get to practice on people until you get it right.  It is or is not from God and that is a major responsibility that I don't believe most consider before they seek a position from a need for attention, possibly power or outright deception thinking they are being led of God when they are being led by a lying spirit.  It all goes on.  

There is also the 'word of knowledge' that people confuse with prophecy.

 

Anyway I have probably said too much now.

 

Going to be away till next week so that's it for now

 

 

12 hours ago, Ocean said:

Sorry...I also meant to say that I do not see how you can make a connection between those words in the OT spoken to people before Christ and the corrections of Paul to the Corinthians or any body of believers who are not following the NT pattern.

God's judgement on those speaking in tongues out of turn or not being translated?

Paul says do all things decently and in order...he never states you are now under God's judgement because you are misusing tongues.

Wouldn't Paul correct in that case rather than tell them they are now under God's judgement?
 

Frankly, I would be more troubled by the teachers calling themselves teachers and God did not call them to be a teacher. Some of these go so far as to state that people speak in tongues by the power of demons.

That, I would think, is the crime quite possibly falling into the category of being under Gods' judgement.

 

 

Your postings are read and noted.

Take care on your journey.

[biblelesson]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:16 PM, Wayne222 said:

   Someone on worthy a true believer wrote speaking in tongues is a sign for all believers that there saved. I personally believe this is false. And can be used to overthrow a person's faith in Christ. I do believe sometimes a person by the holy spirit can speak in another tongue. But not the normal experience of true believer. 

According to Mark 16:17, speaking in tongue is a sign of salvation, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."

Speaking in tongue is one of the gifts of the Spirit.  There are other gifts that believers receive from the Holy Spirit.  These gifts are signs identifying a believer from the non-believer.

Some people say they speak in tongue, but might not be speaking a tongue from the Holy Spirit.  That's why believers are given spiritual discernment, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

[Wayne222]

1 minute ago, biblelesson said:

According to Mark 16:17, speaking in tongue is a sign of salvation, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues."

Speaking in tongue is one of the gifts of the Spirit.  There are other gifts that believers receive from the Holy Spirit.  These gifts are signs identifying a believer from the non-believer.

Some people say they speak in tongue, but might not be speaking a tongue from the Holy Spirit.  That's why believers are given spiritual discernment, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Hi  it says these signs shall follow them that believe. It's not saying for everyone.  Even Paul wrote do all speak in tongues ? It can be a sign that one is saved.  But it's not the normal experience. The true sign of salvation is keeping the commandments of God. Jesus said he who loves me will keep my commandment and I and my Father will make our home in them. John wrote if you say you know God and keep not his commandments you are a liar. John also wrote this is his commandments that you believe in Jesus name and that you love one another. Those are real signs.

[Waggles]

53 minutes ago, Wayne222 said:

Hi  it says these signs shall follow them that believe. It's not saying for everyone.  Even Paul wrote do all speak in tongues ?

Yes Jesus is saying this is for everyone. There are no exemptions to Jesus' statement that these signs shall follow them that believe ... that is inclusive.

People who do not believe the Pentecostal gospel of salvation do not have these signs following them.

As for quoting Paul in respect to his question "do all speak in tongues?" (1Cor 12:30) that is in the chapter explaining the distribution of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit that actively work in the Spirit-filled ekklesia.

Mark 16 these signs shall ... G4592 sēmeion
1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known

1Cor 12 gift(s) of ... G5486  charisma
1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own
2) the gift of divine grace
3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue

As you can read these two words 'signs' and 'gifts' are different from each other.

Speaking in tongues is the sign or evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit which shall follow believers; while gifts of the Spirit are distributed to saints individually as the Spirit wills.

Three of these voice gifts are used exclusively in worship meetings and to be done decently and in order in accordance with the instructions written out in 1Cor 14;

Note: the gift of tongues is properly - 'to another various kinds of tongues' - 'to another varieties of the gift of tongues' - 'to another, diverse kinds of tongues' - this more accurately describes what is going on with the operation of this gift: that is a person who already can and does pray in tongues is able to speak aloud in a different sounding unknown tongue in a meeting.

In our Pentecostal church everybody, young and old, baptized in the Holy Spirit can pray in tongues, but not all operate the gift of diverse tongues, or the gift of interpretation or the gift of prophecy.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Waggles