The Efficacy of Water Baptism

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

Hello Retrobyter,

I enjoy reading your post.

How does Romans 6:2-7 support water baptism is a picture of our baptism into Christ? Clearly Paul is speaking of Spirit baptism which has nothing to do with water immersion but is an operation of God by the Spirit not a operation of man.

Col_2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Co_12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Shalom, Cntrysner.

It's really simple in light of the Scriptures you just posted. We are not yet truly risen with the Messiah!

Spirit is the "WIND!" The "wind" of a person is how a person communicates what he or she is thinking, through the words conveyed in a person's "breath."

Consider Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:35-57 (KJV)

35 But some [man] will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but

[there is] one [kind of] flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, [and]
another of birds. 40
[There are] also celestial bodies, and
bodies terrestrial: but

the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.

41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and
another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars:
for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory.

42 So also [is] THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. 

It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: 43
It is sown in dishonour;
it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness;
it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body;
it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written,

"The first man Adam was made a living soul ";
the last Adam [was made] a quickening (life-giving) spirit.

46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy:
the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

48 As [is] the earthy,
such [are] they also that are earthy: and
as [is] the heavenly,
such [are] they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;

We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and
this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 "O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? "

56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Neighbor]

9 hours ago, other one said:

Hummm,  not sure what you mean by that.

I personally know of many Christians in service to our Lord in the joy and certain hope of Jesus that do not or did not have any strong desire to be baptized in water. In fact I know one friend that opposed it for years. Yet when told by the elders that  he must be baptized if he is to lead a ministry work he spent time in prayer with his wife then in obedience to  the elders he and his wife both were baptized.

Was he strong in his ministry duties? Yes! Was he an extremely active  witness of the gospel of Jesus? Yes!

I had the job duty to have facilities prepared for water baptisms for some 14 years and so saw and heard the testimonies of many a Christian, a whole lot of them waited years to be baptized in water.

[Cntrysner]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Cntrysner.

It's really simple in light of the Scriptures you just posted. We are not yet truly risen with the Messiah!

 

Retrobyter,

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Oh yes, we truly have been raised with Christ as the word of God (Col 2:12) says. It’s a matter of faith in the operations of God. 

Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 
1Co 2:11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 
1Co 2:12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 
1Co 2:13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 
1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 
1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

The natural man can not understand the things of God who sees things as they spiritually and truly are.

Rom 4:17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things (summons) which be not as though they were (truly are).

1Co 1:26  For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 
1Co 1:27  But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 
1Co 1:28  And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:  

Edited April 25 by Cntrysner

[other one]

11 hours ago, Neighbor said:

I personally know of many Christians in service to our Lord in the joy and certain hope of Jesus that do not or did not have any strong desire to be baptized in water. In fact I know one friend that opposed it for years. Yet when told by the elders that  he must be baptized if he is to lead a ministry work he spent time in prayer with his wife then in obedience to  the elders he and his wife both were baptized.

Was he strong in his ministry duties? Yes! Was he an extremely active  witness of the gospel of Jesus? Yes!

I had the job duty to have facilities prepared for water baptisms for some 14 years and so saw and heard the testimonies of many a Christian, a whole lot of them waited years to be baptized in water.

I still don't know anyone who didn't want to be baptized. When Jesus told us to do so how can anyone justify not doing so.

[Neighbor]

18 hours ago, other one said:

I still don't know anyone who didn't want to be baptized. When Jesus told us to do so how can anyone justify not doing so.

Good morning,  I guess there are so many variant understandings of the  effect of water baptism along with when and how it may be done to what  purpose that if one anchors on one understanding only for themself they may not  find the view of others to even be possible. I am only sharing that it is possible and that I know many that were  resistant or hesitant, having nothing to do with their reliance on the faith  of Jesus for their salvation.

Some endorse infant baptism some endorse sprinkling some have tanks some insist on rivers or lakes or oceans  to be used some believe it is absolutely necessary  element for salvation an dthat without it one is not saved. The variation of understandings is  vast, almost unlimited.

[Retrobyter]

On 4/26/2024 at 4:19 AM, Neighbor said:

Good morning,  I guess there are so many variant understandings of the  effect of water baptism along with when and how it may be done to what  purpose that if one anchors on one understanding only for themself they may not  find the view of others to even be possible. I am only sharing that it is possible and that I know many that were  resistant or hesitant, having nothing to do with their reliance on the faith  of Jesus for their salvation.

Some endorse infant baptism some endorse sprinkling some have tanks some insist on rivers or lakes or oceans  to be used some believe it is absolutely necessary  element for salvation an dthat without it one is not saved. The variation of understandings is  vast, almost unlimited.

Shabbat shalom, Neighbor.

This is why we go back to the Scriptures for their instruction, and when in doubt, ask a Baptist! (Just kidding! LOL! Baptists don't necessarily know any better.) 

Being a Baptist before I learned about the Messianic Jews, I also know a few things about baptism. First, I know that it is NOT a part of God's justification for us (which most erroneously call "salvation"). There is absolutely NOTHING that we could "bring to the table" to gain God's approval. Our justification comes SOLELY from God! Baptism is part of the "good works" that we do BECAUSE we were already justified by God!

I also know that baptism is a PICTURE of what God's already done for us in the Sacrifice of His Son, Yeeshuwa`. It contributes NOTHING to the new birth itself.

It's a picture of the death, burial, and the resurrection of our Master Yeeshuwa`. As a picture of death and burial, it's not enough just to sprinkle someone or pour some water on someone. A person isn't buried that way. One must be IMMERSED - totally BURIED - in the dirt or within the rock. Then, from the tomb, the Messiah was resurrected, just as He came up straightway out of the water at His baptism.

Ideally, it should be running water in which a person is baptised, but a deep pool - a miqveh - would do in a pinch. If one doesn't have a river, a lake, or an ocean nearby, a baptismal pool will do.

[Cntrysner]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There is absolutely NOTHING that we could "bring to the table" to gain God's approval. Our justification comes SOLELY from God!

@Retrobyter

This statement so true but many believe they must do good works to earn salvation because it is difficult for man to live without laws or ordinances to measure their goodness for all to see.

Many have the wrong picture of water baptism and believe it does have efficacy toward salvation and in doing so they have voided the free gift of salvation. 

If water baptism is just a picture of your justification why not do away with it if so many get the wrong picture?

 1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 
1Co 1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

@Retrobyter

This statement so true but many believe they must do good works to earn salvation because it is difficult for man to live without laws or ordinances to measure their goodness for all to see.

Many have the wrong picture of water baptism and believe it does have efficacy toward salvation and in doing so they have voided the free gift of salvation. 

If water baptism is just a picture of your justification why not do away with it if so many get the wrong picture?

Shalom, Cntrysner.

One may not "do away with" baptism for the simple fact that Yeeshuwa` Himself said to do so, 

Matthew 28:18-20 (KJV)

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,

"All power (authority) is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (on the authority) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

Amen. (Hebrew for "Truth.")

It's not a command in order to gain acceptance with God; it's simply what Yeeshuwa` told them to do, having BEEN accepted by God! We now have the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) to DO the things that will please our Father! We didn't have that before the New Birth!

4 hours ago, Cntrysner said:

1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name (on my own authority). 
1Co 1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 
1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 

Paul's mission was not to baptize, although he did not shrink from it, if no one else was available. Remember: Not everyone has the same gifts of the Spirit. Paul's mission was to PLANT EKKLEESIAI! Once an ekkleesia was established, the believers themselves would do the baptizing! Shaa'uwl "Paulos" ("Paul," named for his Roman sponsor, the proconsul of Cyprus, Sergius Paulus, Acts 13:7), as a Paruwsh (a "Pharisee" or a "Separatist"), was more gifted to share the apologetics of the faith with both Jews and Gentiles in whatever city to which he was led by the Ruwach haQodesh, and he often had someone else (often more than one) with him to help establish that ekkleesia.

The new birth is like the neck of an hourglass: Before the new birth, one may try to do good works in an effort to please God, but after one comes to the end of oneself, and realizes that ONLY GOD can do for us what we can't do for ourselves, then he or she can be "born again." And, once he or she has been "born again," NOW he or she can do the things that God commands through the power of His Spirit, not to be "saved," but BECAUSE he or she has been justified by GOD!

[Brightfame52]

What about the efficacy of the Blood of Christ ? Heb 9:14

 

¹⁴ How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[Cntrysner]

The commission right before Christ ascended and some supporting scripture.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. 

The commission was to teach and the teaching (words) of the gospel would do the baptizing no need for water.
 
Eph 5:26..  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. 
Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 
Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 

Christ is including baptism with believing as a requirement for salvation and it is not optional. Notice at first it says believeth and is baptized  then it just says believeth not leaving out baptized. Clearly this is Spirit baptism an operation of God not a water baptism which is a work of men. 

Luk 24:46  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 
Luk 24:47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

If you believe remission of sins is through His finished work as the gospel teaches then you are baptized by the word.  

Act 1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but (on the contary) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 
Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 
Act 1:8  But(on the contary) ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

What was Christ’s witness?

Joh 5:33  Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. 
Joh 5:34  But (on the contary)I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. 
Joh 5:35  He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. 
Joh 5:36  But (on the contary)I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 

Joh 7:37  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 
Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 
Joh 7:39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) 

The living water is the word of God and only it can wash clean a dirty sinner and it is Spirit baptism.

Joh 6:62  What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.  

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up (glorified); and a cloud received him out of their sight.

After Christ's ascension God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to do the baptizing and the apostles were instructed to wait for the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.