New Jerusalem - size and shape

[Spiros]

The Bethlehem - Jerusalem distance:

 

https://i.postimg.cc/0y7m6rW6/reed007.jpg

 

https://i.postimg.cc/Dz2W864D/reed006.jpg

[Spiros]

New Jerusalem is not a "real" city. I exists because it is a mind/soul exercise. It encodes geographic information via isopsephy. It defines an ideal city, town, or village, in harmony with it's surroundings as also the celestial bodies, the seasons of the year, the geographical surroundings, mountains, rivers, etc. But above all it defines a place where everyone believes in Jesus Christ, in other words it defines the Church.

 

This way it is an octahedron(back to back pyramids), a cube, but also a sphere.

 

It is a geographical solution for the position of Jerusalem in Palestine, but also other places on the globe like Hellas or Russia(Moscow).

 

I thus give the Revelation New Jerusalem account a "personal" explanation. The geodetic equation that defines a New Jerusalem of 12,000 stades and defines other places on the globe. The half diagonal of "New Athens" is thus equal to the side of New Jerusalem which is 12,000 stadiums. This square root of two (2) Palestine to Greece mapping, helps me map the place that my mother was born with the mean size of new "cities" based on the four holy places of Palestine that relate to the main Christian holidays. The Annunciation of Virgin Mary, Christmas, Epiphany, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ(also the place of Pentecost).  This way, if we add the isopsephy  values of the names in Greek of these four holy places we get the isopsephy value of my mother's last name. For me this is one aspect of New Jerusalem, one that is more like "New Holy Land" through the "Whole Life of Jesus on Earth". 

 

I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas!   

[JoeCanada]

@Retrobyter

Great topic!

I am super busy for the next few days but I will respond.

Merry Christmas to all.....

[Retrobyter]

43 minutes ago, OneLight said:

All this has my head spinning trying to follow your mathematical logic.

First, we are not told how large or small the new earth will be.

Second, God does not tell us much of the New Jerusalem for us to say what it will be like, just the detentions that could fit a cube, as some believe, or a pyramid as some believe.  Question is, does it really matter???

Shalom, OneLight.

Sure. I understand that. But, yes, I really believe it DOES matter!

It matters because, if and when we get the picture of what we have to anticipate, we will be much more confident and happier, picturing what's in store for us!

Anyone can set out on a journey and get ... somewhere.

BUT, if one wants to end up in a place where he or she wants to go, he or she must do some PLANNING and get some bearing on where he or she intends to go! Then, he or she must prepare for the trip. Finally, when all is ready, he or she can leave with confident assurance that he or she will get where he or she wants to go!

No, we are not told how large or small the New Earth will be, but we are given information about the current earth, and we are given enough hints in Scripture not to expect much of a change in this planet. For instance,

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (KJV)

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Through 2 Peter 3 and Genesis 6-9, we can reason that the earth did not change much in its overall size and shape when subjected to a worldwide Flood; so, it is reasonable to assume that it will not change much in its overall size and shape when subjected to a worldwide Fire!

People always assume the worse, and they globalize too much. They make everything too nebulous, and they also have a tendancy to be too dichotomous; that is, thinking of the world in black and white. They always like things in twos. Sometimes, even threes are too much! And numbers higher than three? That's just too much to think about!

They read "the earth will pass away," and assume the worst! But, "earth" means "DIRT!" and the word used that was translated "will pass away" doesn't mean "to be destroyed" or "to be disintegrated" or "to be annihilated!" It means "TO GO BY!" So, they need to "take it down a notch!" What they should get from their reading is "the dirt will fly by!" It's still bad, but not NEARLY as bad as they were imagining! And, THAT'S the key: Mankind's IMAGINATION!

It can be our greatest tool, and it can be our greatest "Achilles' heel!" An inventor will imagine a particular scene he'd like to make a reality, and then he will work to make that imagination a reality! On the other end, however, if the investor can't catch the vision of what the inventor is trying to describe, then the investor will miss a potentially great opportunity! But, if the investor can imagine a world that contains such an invention, he may see a bigger picture than the inventor does and work hard to make that vision a reality!

This picture I'm trying to paint for you readers is meant to inspire you and excite you. THIS is your promised home! THIS is your destination! And, I'm trying to use my ability to put the pieces of the puzzle together to show you what you have to anticipate! What you have to look forward to! There is FAR more information tucked away in this short description than most have gleaned from a surface reading!

Look, some well-meaning teachers will say we're to look forward to "going to heaven" when we die; it is where we are going to live beatifically forever and ever. They paint this rosey picture of what it will be like, and yet, it is NOT to be found in the Scriptures! That is NOT what we are to anticipate! We are to look forward to the RESURRECTION and the SECOND COMING OF OUR BELOVED SAVIOR, LORD, KING, AND FRIEND, A FRIEND THAT STICKS CLOSER THAN A BROTHER!

John 14:1-3 really gets a bad rap. He wasn't saying that He was "taking us anywhere!" He was saying that He would BRING us to HIM, and HE'S TAKING UP RESIDENCY IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL! He's sending out His messengers to bring us from wherever we are to MEET WITH HIM THERE!

Through our anscestors, Adam and Chavah ("Eve"), were were made to live upon the earth, and originally, we were created to LIVE FOREVER! Sin and its consequences temporarily got in the way, BUT YHWH God will RESTORE the earth, making it NEW, and He will make us immortal, incorruptible, and shining bodies that shall live FOREVER! The earth was made to be a home for mankind, and mankind were designed to live on the earth. And, GOD pronounced it all "very good!"

So, yes! It matters!

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

I see no problem. You are trying to understand this from a human point of view. Maybe the earth will be bigger at that time. Maybe Maybe the foundation will be thicker at the corners so the walls will be equal. Maybe there will be a level spot on the earth specifically for that glorious city. I believe John knew what he was talking about when he said "cube" and i don't believe it can be any other shape. It's DEFINITELY not the same as whats in Ezekiel. I'm thinking God maybe knows something we don't and when we see it one day we will stand in amazement and say "OH", that's how he did it.

Shalom, TrueFollowerOfChrist, and Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukkah!

No, not from a "human point of view," but from a "son of Adam's point of view." Maybe this, maybe that, maybe the sky will be green, or maybe it'll be orange like that of Mars, or .... (I don't believe any of that, btw.) Human speculation CAN get in the way! THAT'S what I believe!

The foundations being thicker at the corners will just mean we have to ascend, oh, 233.797 miles or so upward to enter the center gates and even higher at the other two gates on the same side, and the corners? Forget about it! To get to the center of the bottom of the cube, you would be going downhill all the way, until you got near the center of the city, and then to get to the opposite gate, you would be going uphill the whole way! Besides, the bottom of the cube on the inside from a distance would still look like a square phonograph record on top of a balloon! No, I don't think that's right.

No, one would have to have a cube with a cupped bottom to fit over the earth, and that would mess up the cube in so many ways!

Now, John never said ANYTHING about a "cube!" What he SAID was, 

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Again, a cube is a three dimensional object, but a square is two dimensional! When he said, "the city lieth foursquare," which in Greek was "ἡ πόλις τετράγωνος κεῖται," translated word-for-word as "the city four-angled lies," he only meant that the city covered a "square" plot of ground at best, but at these distances, it would be even better to understand that it "covers a plot of ground with four angles," whether those angles are right angles or not! We make a LOT of assumptions when we veer away from the actual text of Scripture!

What I believe we are told is that the ground will be level enough at all twelve of its gates:

Revelation 21:24-26 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

This tells me that the base of the city will follow the curvature of the earth. That tells me that any line through the center of its base will follow the Great Circle of the earth. It also tells me that, to keep the distance across the city's bottom consistently the same size, the sides of the base will have to curve in toward the center of the base from its corners. See, not only will the distance have to be 12,000 furlongs across the sides of the base from corner to corner but the distance will also have to be 12,000 furlongs across the middle from center gate on one side of the city to center gate on the opposite side.

Here's a good way to visualize the cupped bottom of the city:

Take a square of clay, as reasonably thin and consistent as you can make it (perhaps, using a rolling pin), that is 1,380 miles on a side, according to the milage key on a globe. Use a piece of white thread long enough to go from corner to opposite corner, and criss-cross another piece of white thread from one of the other corners to its opposite corner. Mark these threads at the corners and at the center on the square with a black sharpie marker, and carefully place a pin, through these two threads, if possible, in the center. Leave the pieces of thread on the square, and carefully transfer this square of clay to the surface of the globe. It can be anywhere is easiest for you, but if you can place the pin at the location of current Jerusalem, all the better. Make sure that the two sides of the square are pointing toward the north by the same degree. (You may have to eyeball this.) Start by putting the pin where you want it (hopefully you didn't allow too much of the pin to stick through the clay), and work opposite corners down first from the center out to the corners WITHOUT DEFORMING THE CLAY too much! This is why you marked the corner locations on the thread. If you press too hard, you will stretch the clay and the marks on the string will not touch the corners any more. If that happens, start over.

When you are done lowering the four corners down against the curvature of the globe by opposite pairs, starting again at the pin in the center gently press down the center of opposite sides of the square onto the globe, again, not pressing any harder than you did with the corners. Continue to do this light pressing on opposite sides of the center until the square is molded down to the curvature of the globe. The goal is to mold the clay to the surface of the globe without deforming it out of measure. When you are done, you will see how the bottom of the city must fit with the curvature of the globe. All distances will be consistent with the 12,000 furlongs/1,380 miles distance, and all of the corners are the same.

Now, take a thin straw or a long enough toothpick or wooden matchstick, and measure it to the same measurement on the globe's milage key and break it off or cut it with a razor knife at that distance. Remove the pin and the threads. Using a carpenter's square, carefully align the straw or stick with the carpenter's square against the surface pointed out to all four of its corners, and push the straw or stick into the clay. This represents the height of the city! If you left the clay thick enough for transfer to the globe, it should be thick enough to support the straw or stick.

This gives you the three measurements, the length is 12,000 furlongs or 1,380 miles, the width is 12,000 furlongs or 1,380 miles, and the height, is also 12,000 furlongs or 1,380 miles!

Now, if ANYONE can get a "cube" to fit those measurements we just make with the clay and the straw or stick, I'd be GREATLY impressed! See, we also have the problem that "down" is in toward the center of the globe!  If the cube's top edges extend above the stick by comparison, then the city would be higher than it should be! If the corner edges of the walls extend outward any orthogonal line down through the base's edges to the center of the globe, the city would have measurements longer than the length or the width of the city!

Now, carefully remove the stick representing the city's height, and take two long pieces of white thread that will fit at least down to the corners from when the stick was in the clay, and pin the centers of these threads to the end of the stick or straw. Gently put the stick back down into the clay and stretch the thread down to the corner of the clay. Put a piece of tape down on the end of the thread to make the thread barely touch the corner. The thread should be as straight as possible. Tape down the thread to the opposite corner as well. This will give the thread some stability. Now, do the same thing with the other thread to the remaining opposite corners.

When this is done, you have the basic shape of what I believe the New Jerusalem will look like. If one has the time, dexterity, and the desire to do so, one can even take aluminum foil to form the four walls of the city, wrapping it carefully around the threads supported by the stick and tape, and cutting away the curve at the base until it matches the curvature of the globe at the base's edges. One can start with a circle of aluminum foil that has the thread length from the stick down to the corner of the clay base as the radius of the circle. (One will probably want to use a large enough compass.) Then, simply cut a line in the circle of aluminum from the circle's center to the edge of the circle.

Most don't know this, but the Great Pyramid of Giza doesn't have four sides; it actually has eight! They discovered this fact several years ago, but to make the four corners right angles, the walls had to angle in toward the center of the face slightly, and there is a LINE where the angle changes ever so gently at the center of each face of the pyramid! They noticed this by a double flash of light at the spring and fall equinoxes, as the sun was coming up.

This makes me think that the walls of the New Jerusalem will also be slightly bowed inward along the side of the city. So, one can play with the aluminum with this fact in mind and using the sides of the clay base with which we started.

Hope you enjoyed this, whether you try the experiment or not.

And, yes, it's DEFINITELY not the same as what's in Ezekiel.

[Retrobyter]

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think just like the 144,000 in Rev. 7 its a CODE for COMPLETION. 12 = fulness and 10 = completion, so when we get 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 we get Fulness x Completion. God doesn't need to tells us the real details. 

Shalom, Revelation Man, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukkah!

No, sir. It is MUCH more than just codes! This is a very real, very tangible, very concrete city complex! He absolutely DOES tell us the real details, and so many of them, that I cannot deny its reality! 

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Spiros said:

New Jerusalem is not a "real" city.

Shalom, Spiros.

The New Jerusalem is very much a real city! Don't make things so complicated that only God can understand you! When you do, only GOD can correct you, and that's NOT a situation in which to find yourself!

10 hours ago, Spiros said:

I exists because it is a mind/soul exercise. It encodes geographic information via isopsephy. It defines an ideal city, town, or village, in harmony with it's surroundings as also the celestial bodies, the seasons of the year, the geographical surroundings, mountains, rivers, etc. But above all it defines a place where everyone believes in Jesus Christ, in other words it defines the Church.

 

This way it is an octahedron(back to back pyramids), a cube, but also a sphere.

 

It is a geographical solution for the position of Jerusalem in Palestine, but also other places on the globe like Hellas or Russia(Moscow).

 

I thus give the Revelation New Jerusalem account a "personal" explanation. The geodetic equation that defines a New Jerusalem of 12,000 stades and defines other places on the globe. The half diagonal of "New Athens" is thus equal to the side of New Jerusalem which is 12,000 stadiums. This square root of two (2) Palestine to Greece mapping, helps me map the place that my mother was born with the mean size of new "cities" based on the four holy places of Palestine that relate to the main Christian holidays. The Annunciation of Virgin Mary, Christmas, Epiphany, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ(also the place of Pentecost).  This way, if we add the isopsephy  values of the names in Greek of these four holy places we get the isopsephy value of my mother's last name. For me this is one aspect of New Jerusalem, one that is more like "New Holy Land" through the "Whole Life of Jesus on Earth". 

 

I'd like to wish everyone a Merry Christmas!   

Merry Christmas to you, as well, and a Happy Chanukkah! He IS the "Light of the world!"

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi Retrobyter,

I am peaked of interest; did you spend some time under the lessons  by Gene Scott? Especially his year long one on the Great Pyramid of Giza with it's proportions in relationship to earth, with it's calendar of prophecy to be fulfilled much now having been fulfilled?

Shalom, Neighbor, and Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukkah!

[I celebrate Christmas because so many of my brothers and sisters do, but I actually believe that Yeeshuwa` was born on the first day of Cukkowt (Sukkot) and was circumcised the eighth day, right after Cukkowt.]

No, I don't really know anything about Gene Scott, but I will look him up! My mentor on the subject was Dr. Herbert J. Pugmire, an evangelist I met as a child. He, too, studied the Great Pyramid of Giza and believed that it was a scale model of the New Jerusalem, designed and possibly built by Enoch (Chanokh) himself, because the Arabs call it "Enoch's Pillar."

While I believe he may have designed it, archaological finds seem to have disproved that it could have been built before the Flood. Still, it's interesting!

[Revelation Man]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, sir. It is MUCH more than just codes! This is a very real, very tangible, very concrete city complex! He absolutely DOES tell us the real details, and so many of them, that I cannot deny its reality! 

God tells you the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Fulness x Completion. Whether you accept that are not doesn't change the facts brother. You know why we know its a code? Its a PERFECT NUMBER, God doesn't chose who gets saved, its up to each man whether he accepts God or rejects Him, else we are nothing but a computer code like windows microsoft. Also, God can't lie, He stated he saved Himself 7000 men who had not kneeled to Baal. In Zech. 13:8-9 God says that 1/3 of Israel will repent in the end time, since 10 million Jews live in Israel and 15 million world wide, that would be 3.5-5 million Jews repenting, not 144,000. 

So, if the 144,000 is God CODE as is 7000 (7 x 10 x 10 x 10), then they can mean Completeness x Fulness x Divine Completeness etc. but the real number is 3.5-5 million, and it could be 5,127,702. It will not be a PERFECT NUMBER. That just common sense.

So, if the 144,000 is a CODE in Rev. 7 and 14, I think its God lingo for completeness via the New Jerusalem also. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

God tells you the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Fulness x Completion. Whether you accept that are not doesn't change the facts brother. You know why we know its a code? Its a PERFECT NUMBER, God doesn't chose who gets saved, its up to each man whether he accepts God or rejects Him, else we are nothing but a computer code like windows microsoft. Also, God can't lie, He stated he saved Himself 7000 men who had not kneeled to Baal. In Zech. 13:8-9 God says of Israel will repent in the end time, since 10 million Jews live in Israel and 15 million world wide, that would be 3.5-5 million Jews repenting, not 144,000. 

So, if the 144,000 is God CODE as is 7000 (7 x 10 x 10 x 10), then they can mean Completeness x Fulness x Divine Completeness etc. but the real number is 3.5-5 million, and its could be 5,127,702. It will not be a PERFECT NUMBER. That just common sense.

So, if the 144,000 is a CODE in Rev. 7 and 14, I think its God lingo via the New Jerusalem also. 

Shalom, Revelation Man, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukkah!

Sure, the number 12 is stamped all over the New Jerusalem, but why should that make it any less real? In my personal opinion, and one might easily call it conjecture, I believe the twelve foundations named for the twelve apostles and the twelve gates named for the twelve tribes of Israel are an ADDRESSING SYSTEM! "Where can I find you?" "Oh, I'm through Gate Efrayim, Level Mattityahuw ("Matthew"), at ...." The number of waterfalls and/or cascades may also be numbered or named and used for reference. In any case, this is a HUGE city.

The side of this city is 12,000 "furlongs" or "stadia" which equals 1,379.868686... miles. To keep the gates equally spaced around the city, they would have to be 459.956 miles apart (from center of gate to center of gate), and 229.978 miles from the center of the gate nearest the corner to the corner itself. 

It would be in this pattern:

corner <- 230 mi -> gate <- 460 mi -> gate <- 460 mi -> gate <- 230 mi -> corner

on each of its four sides. In that way, no one would ever be farther away than 230 miles from a gate, if one were walking right beside the city.

DREAM BIG!

Oh, and don't forget about all those children of Israel as well as their ancestors who are resurrected! They will need a place, too!

Oh, and by the way, the 144,000 are the CHOIR! They are the singers!

Edited December 25, 2022 by Retrobyter