Daniel 9:24-27: When?

[bloom]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that would mean the Messiah is the prince, or the people? 

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Messiah confirms the 7 year agreement, then breaks it?

 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. 

That doesn't sound quite right.

Then, 

And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

Messiah is going to bring the abomination, like  Messiah is going place an object representative of a false god? Then Messiah is going to have destruction poured out upon Him? 

 

 

What is this 7 year agreement ? Can you elaborate the terms? Maybe this is covenant being spoke of is Mosaic, {Daniel 9:11-13}. The Davidic covenant could be a possibility also. Either way YHVH is the only covenant maker that matters anything else is false. One sacrifice and one offering made for all that are willing. True Messiah or false Messiah we do have choice.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, bloom said:

What is this 7 year agreement ? Can you elaborate the terms? Maybe this is covenant being spoke of is Mosaic, {Daniel 9:11-13}. The Davidic covenant could be a possibility also. Either way YHVH is the only covenant maker that matters anything else is false. One sacrifice and one offering made for all that are willing. True Messiah or false Messiah we do have choice.

Shalom, bloom.

Well, the Messiah is THE Prince, but there is another "prince that shall come." That prince came in 70 A.D. and his people, the Romans, DID INDEED "destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple)."

The 7-year agreement was the Davidic Covenant. That is the Covenant that was partially quoted to Miryam ("Mary") by the messenger GaVriy-'Eel ("Gabriel") in Luke 1.

Here's the Davidic Covenant as it came to David through the prophet Natan ("Nathan") with the story behind it:

2 Samuel 7:1-17

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD (YHWH) had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD (YHWH) is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up THY SEED after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I WILL ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM. 13 HE SHALL BUILD AN HOUSE FOR MY NAME, AND I WILL STABLISH THE THRONE OF HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER. 14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit (is twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And THINE HOUSE AND THY KINGDOM SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER BEFORE THEE: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Here's the words of GaVriy-`Eel:

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!" 

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found FAVOUR with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; AND OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called 'THE SON OF GOD!' 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible!"

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Well, that would mean the Messiah is the prince, or the people? 

Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The Messiah confirms the 7 year agreement, then breaks it?

 27And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,i but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. 

That doesn't sound quite right.

Shalom, Diaste.

First, just as I said to @bloom, there are TWO: The Messiah is THE Prince, but there is also a prince-to-come, and he DID come in 70 A.D! It was HIS people, the Romans, who destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple).

Second, the verse doesn't say "He will break the covenant." It says that "in the middle of the week (the seven years) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering," and that's PRECISELY what He did!

Hebrews 10:1-22 (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith,

"Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I,

'Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.'" (Psalm 40:6-8)

8 Above when he said,

"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein"; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God." He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But THIS man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:33-34)

18 Now where remission of these is, THERE IS NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 

And, this is talking about the NEW Covenant!

Here are the prophet David's words in Psalm 40:

Psalm 40:6-8 (KJV)

6 "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7 Then said I, 'Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, 8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.'"

And, here is the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)

31 "Behold, the days come," saith the LORD, "that I will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them," saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days," saith the LORD, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD': for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them," saith the LORD: "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

 

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then, 

And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

Messiah is going to bring the abomination, like  Messiah is going place an object representative of a false god? Then Messiah is going to have destruction poured out upon Him? 

Now, you KNOW that's a goofy conclusion, right? No, this is NOT a good translation of GaVriy-`Eel's words in Daniel 9:27. Here's the Hebrew (right to left):

וְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית ׀ זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֤ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שֹׁמֵֽם׃ פ

Transliterated, this becomes (left to right) ...

27 Vhigbiyr briyt laarabiym shaaVuwa` 'aachaad vachatsiy hashshaaVuwa` yashbiyt | zeVach uwminchaah v`al knaf shiqquwtsiym mshomeem v`ad-kaalaah vnecheraatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: P

This translates word-for-word to ...

27 "And-He-will-strengthen a-covenant to/for-many Seven one and-in-the-middle of-the-Seven He-shall-complete sacrifice and-gift-offering and-upon a-spread-out-wing of-disgusting-things He-shall-desolate and-until-a-completion and-that-which-is-decided shall-be-poured upon-[the]-desolate:"  {end}

There's no "temple" in the text! Rather, it's BECAUSE of disgusting things committed by others, He shall desolate them, and that is PRECISELY what He did in Matthew 23!

[Keras]

Daniel 9:27 clearly divides the 70th week into 2 three and a half year periods.
Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7 describe the second half, when the holy people of God will be in the power of the 'beast'.
Revelation describes that same half several times; Revelation 13:5-7, the 'beast' conquers God's holy people for 42 months and again in Revelation 11:2.
In that same period, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, for 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

The final seven years will commence with a treaty of peace signed between the 'beast'- who will be the leader of the One World Government and the leaders of God's holy people; all the Christians by then, living in all of the holy Land. They will have just recently experienced the dramatic defeat of a huge attacking army from the North, led by a man known as Gog.
The first half of that treaty will be peaceful and is therefore not mentioned. But at the mid point of it, the 'beast' will come to Jerusalem in force and conquer the holy people. Zechariah 14:1-2
He will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

This triggers the Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon and the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Revelation 17:16-18, Revelation 19:11-21

The 70th 'week' of Daniel WILL take place in the last 7 years of this Christian era.
No doubt about it! And there is no need to be concerned, as we faithful Christians do have God's promises for His protection thru it all. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:2

[bloom]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, bloom.

Well, the Messiah is THE Prince, but there is another "prince that shall come." That prince came in 70 A.D. and his people, the Romans, DID INDEED "destroy the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple)."

The 7-year agreement was the Davidic Covenant. That is the Covenant that was partially quoted to Miryam ("Mary") by the messenger GaVriy-'Eel ("Gabriel") in Luke 1.

Here's the Davidic Covenant as it came to David through the prophet Natan ("Nathan") with the story behind it:

2 Samuel 7:1-17

1 And it came to pass, when the king sat in his house, and the LORD (YHWH) had given him rest round about from all his enemies; 2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet,

"See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains!"

3 And Nathan said to the king,

"Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD (YHWH) is with thee."

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD,

"'"Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, 'Why build ye not me an house of cedar?' "'

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David,

"'Thus saith the LORD of hosts,

"'"I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies."

"'Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 

12 "'"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up THY SEED after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I WILL ESTABLISH HIS KINGDOM. 13 HE SHALL BUILD AN HOUSE FOR MY NAME, AND I WILL STABLISH THE THRONE OF HIS KINGDOM FOR EVER. 14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit (is twisted into) iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And THINE HOUSE AND THY KINGDOM SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER BEFORE THEE: THY THRONE SHALL BE ESTABLISHED FOR EVER."'"

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Here's the words of GaVriy-`Eel:

Luke 1:26-38 (KJV)

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,

"Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women!" 

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found FAVOUR with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST: and THE LORD GOD SHALL GIVE UNTO HIM THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; AND OF HIS KINGDOM THERE SHALL BE NO END."

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,

"How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,

"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called 'THE SON OF GOD!' 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God NOTHING shall be impossible!"

38 And Mary said,

"Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word."

And the angel departed from her.

Hello Roy,    So what you are saying if I'm understanding correctly is that the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy concluded in 70 a.d. and Israel has been desolate ever since. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, bloom said:

What is this 7 year agreement ? Can you elaborate the terms? Maybe this is covenant being spoke of is Mosaic, {Daniel 9:11-13}. The Davidic covenant could be a possibility also. Either way YHVH is the only covenant maker that matters anything else is false. One sacrifice and one offering made for all that are willing. True Messiah or false Messiah we do have choice.

No one can say what the terms are. And it's not a fresh covenant, it's a covenant already in existence that's supported or strengthened.

Since there is a New Covenant, better than the old covenants, I don't think Jesus Christ is going to confirm the old ones.

And it seems the covenant here is broken in the middle; Jesus doesn't break His promises. 

This covenant is by the prince that will come, the prince of the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary. Not Jesus. 

 

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First, just as I said to @bloom, there are TWO: The Messiah is THE Prince, but there is also a prince-to-come, and he DID come in 70 A.D! It was HIS people, the Romans, who destroyed the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Temple).

Actually the Temple destroyers were X Fretensis, an army of Syrian conscripts. From what I have read Titus did not want the Temple destroyed, elements of X Frentensis, Arab, defied those orders and set fire to the Temple; in conjunction with the Jews who already had started fires within the city. 

So the prince to come is Arab, Syrian, not Roman. 

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Second, the verse doesn't say "He will break the covenant." It says that "in the middle of the week (the seven years) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering," and that's PRECISELY what He did!

Should have happened around 36-37 AD then. Why a gap in the timeline?

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, bloom said:

Hello Roy,    So what you are saying if I'm understanding correctly is that the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy concluded in 70 a.d. and Israel has been desolate ever since. 

Shalom, bloom.

Correct. However, they will not stay desolate forever. When the Messiah returns (because they can welcome Him back), they will be a "nation born in a day!" They will fulfill the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 and Zechariah 12.

Ezekiel 37:21-28 (KJV)

21 "And say unto them,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 "'"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one Shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore."'"

Zechariah 12:2-14 (CJB)

2 "I will make Yerushalayim a cup that will stagger the surrounding peoples. Even Y'hudah will be caught up in the siege against Yerushalayim. 

3 "When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who try to lift it will hurt (herniate) themselves, and all the earth's nations will be massed against her. 4 When that day comes," says ADONAI, "I will strike all the horses with panic and their riders with madness; I will keep watch over Y'hudah, but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples. 5 The leaders of Y'hudah will say to themselves, 'Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength through ADONAI-Tzva'ot their God.' 6 When that day comes, I will make the leaders of Y'hudah like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood, like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain; they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right and on the left. Yerushalayim will be inhabited in her own place, Yerushalayim."

7 ADONAI will save the tents of Y'hudah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim will not appear greater than that of Y'hudah. 

8 When that day comes, ADONAI will defend those living in Yerushalayim. On that day, even someone who stumbles will be like David; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of ADONAI before them.

9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim; 10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced."

They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son. 

11 When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Yerushalayim, mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon in the Megiddo Valley. 

12 Then the land will mourn, each family by itself -

the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 
the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim`i by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 
all the remaining families, each by itself, and their wives by themselves.

And, these names, David, Natan, Levi, and the Shim`i, are found in this order (in reverse) in Luke 3:

Luke 3:23-38 (CJB)

23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim`i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z'rubavel, of Sh'altiel, of Neri, 28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 29 of Yeshua, of Eli`ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 30 of Shim`on, of Y'hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 31 of Mal'ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 32 of Yishai, of `Oved, of Bo`az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y'hudah, 34 of Ya`akov, of Yitz'chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 35 of S'rug, of Re`u, of Peleg, of `Ever, of Shelah, 36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal'el, of Keinan, 38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.

So, these names are a sampling of Yeeshuwa`s LINEAGE! If the Messiah's ancestor had only one son, then they would mourn for evil done to Him as though it was done to their only son! If the Messiah's ancestor had more than one son, then they would mourn for the evil done to the Messiah as though it was done to their firstborn son!

[Retrobyter]

16 hours ago, Keras said:

Daniel 9:27 clearly divides the 70th week into 2 three and a half year periods.

Shalom, Keras.

Right. But one shouldn't forget that between these two 3.5-year periods will be a time of DESOLATION, until ALL that was determined to happen against Daniel's people was poured out upon those left desolate! Yeeshuwa` PUT that "gap" between the two halves and He said it wouldn't end (they wouldn't see Him again) until they can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH!" "Welcome, the-Comer in-name/authority of YHWH!" This they have not been willing to do, yet!

16 hours ago, Keras said:

Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 12:7 describe the second half, when the holy people of God will be in the power of the 'beast'.

Yes! But, by then, YHWH God has taken His Kingdom back! (Revelation 11:15-19). He sends His Son, His Christ, His Messiah to fight on His behalf against the Beast. It will take time, but guess who wins? (Shhhh... It's a [not too-well-guarded] secret! ) 

As with any war, if one could get to the root cause of the war (e.g., Hitler), the war would be over instantly. But in every war, one must first get through the troops to the root cause.

16 hours ago, Keras said:

Revelation describes that same half several times; Revelation 13:5-7, the 'beast' conquers God's holy people for 42 months and again in Revelation 11:2.
In that same period, the faithful Christians will be taken to a place of safety on earth, for 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

These different time periods are SIMILAR, but they are NOT the same!

In Jewish time-keeping, a month - literally, a cycle of the moon's revolution around the earth, seen by the changing of phases on the moon - takes 29.5 days. Thus, 42 months is ...
42 months x 29.5 days/month = 1,239 days. That's short of the 1,260 days by 21 days!

In Jewish time-keeping, about every three years, there is a leap month (second Adar) added to the year. This is because 12 months/year, being 29.5 days/month, is only 354 days. The earth travels around the sun every 365.242 days. So, 3 solar years x 365.242 days/year - 3 regular Jewish years x 354 days/year = 1095.7 days - 1062 days =  33.7 days, which is more than a month.

3.5 years x (12 months/year x 29.5 days/month) + 1 leap month x 29.5 days/month = 1,298.5 days.

Thus, this time could be 1,298 days or 1,299 days, depending on where in the cycle the 3.5 years are found. This is LONGER than the 1,260 days by 38 or 39 days!

This is why these three DIFFERENT time spans are said differently! They are THREE DISTINCT time periods!

Thus, 3.5 years > 1,260 days > 42 months.

IF these three periods all started at the same moment, they would finish differently. Or, they could start at different times and end at the same moment. OR, they may not overlap at all!

It's time to revisit this theory in light of this information.

16 hours ago, Keras said:

The final seven years will commence with a treaty of peace signed between the 'beast'- who will be the leader of the One World Government and the leaders of God's holy people; all the Christians by then, living in all of the holy Land.

If you're getting ANY of this theory from Daniel 9, it doesn't work.

16 hours ago, Keras said:

They will have just recently experienced the dramatic defeat of a huge attacking army from the North, led by a man known as Gog.

Where did John (and therefore Jesus) put Gogue in Revelation? (Oh, and btw, "Gog" doesn't rhyme with "dog," just as "Job" doesn't rhyme with "job." In Hebrew, wherever a cholem is found, with or without a vav, it is a LONG "o" sound. "Gogue" rhymes with "rogue," keeping both "g's" hard.  And, technically, "Jobe" wasn't Job's name, either. His name was "אִיּ֣וֹב" or "'IyowV," pronounced "ee-yove'.")

16 hours ago, Keras said:

The first half of that treaty will be peaceful and is therefore not mentioned. But at the mid point of it, the 'beast' will come to Jerusalem in force and conquer the holy people. Zechariah 14:1-2
He will sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

This triggers the Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, culminating in the Battle of Armageddon and the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. Revelation 17:16-18, Revelation 19:11-21

You were right about some of this, but "triggers" it? No. The Seven Trumpets had already been going on since chapter 8! And, the meteorite shower, against which many of the Trumpets warn, started in the sixth Seal in chapter 6!

Revelation 6:12-14 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 8:7 (KJV)

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 8:8-9 (KJV)

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 8:10-11 (KJV)

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood (Apsinthos, from which we get the word "absinthe"): and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter (poisonous).

Revelation 8:12 (KJV)

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

(This is like a "nuclear winter!" The ash and dust block out a third of all light from the sun, moon, and the stars.)

Revelation 9:1-2 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

(This is neither an angel nor a demon. This is an "asteer" [or "astera" in the accusative] - a "STAR," like a "shooting star" or "falling star" - a meteorite! The word "asteer" just simply has a masculine gender, as many words have masculine and feminine genders! A "door" or "thuras" in Greek has a feminine gender. That doesn't make it a woman!)

The Greek word "kleis" translated "key" can mean a literal key or it can mean a key THING! In this particular case, I believe this verse means that the object was given the key COORDINATES to the bottomless pit. It smacked just the right spot to open up the chamber that contained the locusts in suspended animation since the Flood!

16 hours ago, Keras said:

The 70th 'week' of Daniel WILL take place in the last 7 years of this Christian era.
No doubt about it! And there is no need to be concerned, as we faithful Christians do have God's promises for His protection thru it all. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:2

Half of the 70th Week ("Seven") is already over! The second half is yet to come. It is a time "to anoint the Most Holy," the Messiah Himself! The Jews failed to do so at His First Advent, His First Offer of the Kingdom. It SHALL be done in His Second Advent!

Protection? From God? No, we will go THROUGH the last 3.5 years WITH Him!

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Diaste said:

Actually the Temple destroyers were X Fretensis, an army of Syrian conscripts. From what I have read Titus did not want the Temple destroyed, elements of X Frentensis, Arab, defied those orders and set fire to the Temple; in conjunction with the Jews who already had started fires within the city. 

So the prince to come is Arab, Syrian, not Roman. 

Should have happened around 36-37 AD then. Why a gap in the timeline?

Shalom, Diaste.

This is merely a technicality. The Romans sure had a hand in destroying the Temple, removing the stones to get at the melted gold in between the stones! They couldn't be stopped from LOOTING its valuables!

The GAP is because of the Jews' rejection of their KING! They rejected Him; so, He made them DESOLATE for almost 2,000 years now! Furthermore, everything decided or decreed against them has befallen them since 30 A.D: All the persecutions, inquisitions, pogroms, the Crusades, the Holocaust, the terrorism directed at them they have suffered because of their rejection of their King - YHWH GOD'S Messiah to be King - YHWH GOD'S Anointed to be King!

Have you ever considered the implications in the parable that Yeeshuwa` spoke recorded in Luke 19, just before He rode into Jerusalem upon the foal of a donkey?

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will NOT have THIS man to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he HATH ten pounds!') 

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and SLAY THEM BEFORE ME!' "

Now, we know that this was a parable, but think about it: When the Lord returns, where will the ones who rejected Him from being their King be? Won't they have been long dead by then? So, how is the Messiah to be King - the Anointed to be King - going to have them slain before Him? If He is really going to have this done, wouldn't that mean that He would have them resurrected just so they could DIE AGAIN BEFORE HIM?!