Who is "Alive & Remains" in 1 Thess 4:17?

[George]

On 1/24/2023 at 1:02 PM, Vine Abider said:

Here's my point, which goes back to the partial rapture/first-fruits idea - if some were taken earlier (as per the promise to Philadelphia in Rev 3:10) to the heavens as first-fruits prior to the general rapture, then you would have those who are "alive AND REMAIN" after the first-fruit reaping (as in Rev 14:4).

Good point ... also look at the fact that in the harvest of Israel, you leave the GLEANINGS ... the four corners ... hence a connection to gathering from the 4 corners of the earth ... lots of parallels to connect.

[George]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:07 PM, AdHoc said:

Yes. I very much see your point. My dilemma comes then from verse 18. If one is "left" it means you belong to those who must go through part, or all of the Great Tribulation.

For sure ... not very comforting at all! 

[Selah7]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:08 AM, Vine Abider said:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." I Thessalonians 4:16-17

Why does this specifically say, "and remains" (or "are left")?  After the dead are raised, it doesn't just say those are "still alive" will be caught up to the clouds, but rather it distinguishes those "who are still alive and remain."  Why is that - are there some who are alive on the earth that are taken before the Lord descends to the cloud (meaning some will be "alive and remain")?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The Lord is going to descend at the seventh trump (the last trump).  Why will the dead in Christ rise first? ….because they have already died and are there with Christ in heaven.  Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us what happens when we die: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

So the 7th trump will sound and the gathering will take place and we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. Sadly, I believe many people have been misled to believe that there will be a “rapture” before Jesus Christ returns at the 7th trump. Actually, Revelation 6:11 tells us exactly what will be happening right before the King of kings returns. The Antichrist will kill the two witnesses and the world will celebrate for three and a half days and then Jesus will return (and not one day before).

Edited February 2, 2023 by Selah7

[kenny2212]

I Thess. 4:15, 17 (NKJV) - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I think the way the Apostle Paul said "Alive" seems to connote that those who are dead just died (in the matter of  time). A better word he should have used is "living".

That was why he had to add the word "Remain". I have to agree the word "remain" alludes to something just happening (but not in the way "alive" does).

The resurrection (the uniting of the body with the spirit) is what just happened. The word "Remain" in the context alludes to the resurrection just happening.

The discrepancy could also depend on the Bible Version. For Example the Today's English Version just says "living" in the place of "Alive and Remain".

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by kenny2212

[Vine Abider]

After considering all the great posts about this mysterious topic, I'm left, once again, to just say "Lord, I'm not so sure about the things I think I know, but You will show me in good time . . . and I know it will al be so much more wonderful than I could imagine!"

Once again, this song comes to me:

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,   When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled, Or who can say how great the jubilation   When all the hearts of men with love are filled. But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,   And myriad, myriad human voices sing, And earth to heaven, and heaven to earth, will answer:   At last the Savior, Savior of the world, is King.  (sung to tune of "Danny Boy")

[AdHoc]

7 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

After considering all the great posts about this mysterious topic, I'm left, once again, to just say "Lord, I'm not so sure about the things I think I know, but You will show me in good time . . . and I know it will al be so much more wonderful than I could imagine!"

Once again, this song comes to me:

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,   When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled, Or who can say how great the jubilation   When all the hearts of men with love are filled. But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,   And myriad, myriad human voices sing, And earth to heaven, and heaven to earth, will answer:   At last the Savior, Savior of the world, is King.  (sung to tune of "Danny Boy")

Good thread, good theme and a good response when you realize that few had considered this phrase before.

In Ephesians 4 the Lord's desire is maturity, not only in spirituality, but in doctrine. Threads like this force the student to contend with an apparent difficulty, and so become "steadfast".

 

[AdHoc]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:11 PM, Selah7 said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The Lord is going to descend at the seventh trump (the last trump).  Why will the dead in Christ rise first? ….because they have already died and are there with Christ in heaven.  Ecclesiastes 12:7 tells us what happens when we die: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

So the 7th trump will sound and the gathering will take place and we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. Sadly, I believe many people have been misled to believe that there will be a “rapture” before Jesus Christ returns at the 7th trump. Actually, Revelation 6:11 tells us exactly what will be happening right before the King of kings returns. The Antichrist will kill the two witnesses and the world will celebrate for three and a half days and then Jesus will return (and not one day before).

Some good stuff here ... so AMEN. There are also a few thought provoking themes.

1. How can the dead RISE if they are already with the Lord?

2. Where do they rise from? Seeing as they are caught up TOGETHER with the living, their souls must be included in the "RISING"

3. The trumpet that sounds might be the seventh, but it is called "the LAST trumpet". This trumpet sounds while our Lord is still in the clouds. But in Matthew 24:31 a great trumpet sounds after our Lord has left the clouds. This trumpet, is after the trumpet at resurrection, and it is NOT called the "LAST" trumpet.

When God made man, He used mud for the body and His breath for man's vitality. This is man's human spirit. But Genesis 2:7 says that man "BECAME" a Living SOUL. From then on, the Bible calls a man "a SOUL". Now, when a man dies, his body returns to the elements and his spirit returns to God - as you have shown above. But what happens to His SOUL? The interesting thing is that our Lord followed the sequence above concerning body and spirit (except His Body did not start to rot), but Acts 2:26-34 plainly shows His soul going to Hades. So must have the thief who was crucified next to Him. But for sure David was in Hades because the same section of Acts 2 shows David (1) still in the grave, (ii) still in Hades, and (iii) not yet ascended.

Mmmm .... ! Makes one think!

The problem is that there are more difficulties with men in heaven. (1) They are naked - having put off their bodies (2nd Cor.5:1-5). But God did not tolerate fellowship with a naked Adam. Nowhere in the Bible is nakedness positive. (2) The dead are unclean. With millions of Christians in heaven now, it must be thoroughly polluted. (3) Scripture says that "absent from the Body we are with the Lord". In what way can this be achieved if we have shed our bodies? Jesus has His Body - but what about the DEAD IN CHRIST? (4) The DEAD IN CHRIST are reported to be in heaven. But in Revelation 6:9 the martyrs are UNDER the altar. The altar is for sacrificing and it may not be raised above the earth (Ex.20:24-26). There is no record of sacrifices in heaven, and thus no altar. Christ was sacrificed on earth. So all indications are that the Altar of sacrifice is ON EARTH. The martyrs must be UNDER the earth. (5) In EVERY case where a man went to heaven, he was alive and had his body (Enoch, Elijah, Jesus).

If all this is true, 1st Thessalonians 4 paints a different picture. And not only that, but ALL the above difficulties go away.

[Michael37]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

1. How can the dead RISE if they are already with the Lord?

The rising of saints from the dead is with a glorified body.

(Rom 8:18)  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us.
(Rom 8:19)  For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
(Rom 8:20)  For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
(Rom 8:21)  that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
(Rom 8:22)  For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
(Rom 8:23)  Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body.

[AdHoc]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:12 PM, George said:

For sure ... not very comforting at all! 

The student faces an exam. If he is well prepared he is not nervous and when he sees the questions and knows that he knows the answers, he is comforted.

If the student refuses that he must sit an exam, and then realizes that he must sit the exam, and then knows that he has not prepared himself, and then sees the paper with unknown questions on - he is very perturbed.

The terror of facing the Bema when you thought you did not have to be prepared is real - but earned.

Just think George - your forum might be the only one in the world addressing this. The message is simple and scriptural. What have you done with your resources as a Christian? Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10 promise us a day of accountability.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon, ... (Mt 18:23–24a)

Shalom.

[AdHoc]

8 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

The rising of saints from the dead is with a glorified body.

Exactly my question. You have written "the RISING ... FROM THE DEAD" above. If the saints are in heaven it would be "they DESCEND ...", for the body is in the tomb ON EARTH.