Soul Sleep

[Remnant]

Mark,

perhaps this will help clear up Old Timer. First of all, souls are die. souls are people. souls are fishes, birds and animals. So at death, the soul dies. The soul consists of the breath of life and a body. so at death, the breath of life is removed. All that remains is the body. Yhe word "spirit" is mostly translated as wind or breathe. Never is it consience. The only time that occurs is when it refers to the Holy Spirit, for he is GOD!

We know he has a consicence. Anyways, If you read the story where Jesus raises Lazurus....you will understand that the righteous are awaiting the ressurection of life. Old Timer, Moses is the only other person who has died and was ressurected. At the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah returned to earth in glorified bodies. The Transfiguration was a mini-second coming. Moses represented those who die and will be ressurected. Elijah represents those who will be alive at the coming of the Lord. Jesus was shining in the glory he will appear at the his second coming. ALso, that fulfills his prophecy that some standing here will not taste death until they see the coming of the Lord. JAMES, JOHN and PETER.

The transfiguration, was not a 2nd coming. It was a vision of Christ in His glorified KINGDOM BODY---

THE 1000 YEAR MK BODY---in which he will bring to earth.

Moses and Elijah, were present in this---FOR 2 REASONS.

First, they were the 2 that SAW CHRISTS BODY---in the Cleft of the Rock--

they COULD NOT SEE HIS FACE.---Jesus' hand covered Moses eyes, because if they saw the Lords' face in his pre-incarnate glory--- THEY WOULD DIE.

Second---they are the 2 witnesses to Israel that IMMEDIATELY PRE-CEDES THE 2ND COMING, and upon their death, they will return with Christ and the raptured bride/body/church----at his 2nd coming, because they will have been martyrd by the AC.

your representation of the dead in Christ, and those alive---seems good by r eading the words, but JESUS---

IS IN HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH BODY---MATTHEW 16 AND 17, CLEARLY SAY SO.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

and those 3 were these----at the very start of 17....

The Transfiguration.

Mt 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mt 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Mt 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mt 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

Mt 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

Mt 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

Mt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Notice---Jesus Specifically instructed them---TO NOT TELL UNTIL THE RESURRECTION---

mark... i think you misread the scriptures....when did christ say they could reveal the vision?

Mt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man,until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

When did Christ rise from the Dead? He did not say the ressurection of the righteous.

Moses and Elijah are in their glorified bodies. When Elijah left, his body was changed for no one in heaven will have a body that can die or decay. Moses' body was ressurected anew..so he could never die again. Forever gloryfied bodies were given to them both..THey are in heaven now...they are alive. I imagine they talk with Jesus daily as we all should.

Again, I said that the transfiguration was a mini-2nd coming for James and JOhn and Peter....This was to help strengthen them. Peter, James and John were the closest ones to Jesus. He wanted to let them see what they were going to receive from the trials on earth. What is so striking is that the writer records that on the sixth day the vision of the transfiguration took place. Just like the the sixth seal is when CHrist will return, of which we are under right now. He is coming soooo sooooon!!!! He is at the door...

The two witnesses are the Old Testament and the New Testament. These are the ones who were thrown down.. And this vision has already passed. This was the time of France expelled the bibles. The French Revolution to precise.

Edited October 15, 2005 by Remnant

[Remnant]

The Old Testament refers to the world of the dead as Sheol and the New Teastament refers to it as Hades. It was a place for all the believers and unbelievers that have departed from this life. But these places are not Hell, they are only temporary places where Hell lasts forever.

Hades consisted of 3 parts, (1)Abraham's bosom, (2) the great gulf, and (3)the place of torment. Abraham's Bosom was a place of comfort. This was the paradise of the Old Testament for all the believers. The place of torment also in Hades was where all the unbelievers went. The great gulf is what seperated them. It is an impassable gulf with no bottom. However unbelievers were able to look across and see the comforts and blessings of believers in paradise.

An example of Hades is found in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. When they both died Lazarus went to the place of comfort where he was with Abraham and probably with the other saints that have went on before him. The rich man however looked up from the place of torment and saw Lazarus being comforted. This showed that when the bodies of people in the old testament would die, their souls were in hades, not asleep.

Now, thanks to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ we as believers do not have to go to Hades-Sheol.

While on the cross Jesus said "It is finished," meaning humanity's debt of sin has been repayed, no longer requiring the animal sacrifices of the old testament. That is why the saints of the old testament couldn't go directly to Heaven. Animal blood was not sufficient enough to cleanse their sins away permanently. When Jesus shed his blood for our sins, the debt was repayed for the saints of old.

The location of Hades is spoken of as "down". When Christ was "taken up, and a cloud received Him out of sight, and they looked towrd Heaven as He went up." Acts 1:9-10

But when did this change happen? We know that Jesus went to paradise because Luke 23:43 He told the repentant thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise". The Bible says Jesus descended to Hades (the place of the dead) and led all the Old Testament believers who had been held there up to Heaven where they are presently with Him. So when we die our souls go up to heaven to be with the Lord.

Joanie

You are correct about the fact that old and new testaments consider sheol and hades as the place of the dead. But no where does it consider that the dead are alive.

The rich man and Lazurus

I believe you miss the whole point of the story. It was not about the rich man or lazurus. It was about the Scribes and Phairsees and they unwillingness to believe that Jesus was who he said he was.

Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Who is Christ talking about? Who won't listen to the Moses and the prophets?

What is necromancy?

Webster's----1 : conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events

2 : MAGIC, SORCERY

Main Entry: 1mag

[Mongo]

As I said in the other thread about this subject;

Having talked to people who died, I am firmly convinced our souls don't stay with the body. I don't know where they go, but they go somewhere.

[Guest saved*by*grace]

Raven,

I read the King James Version, but I have also read books about the bible that help me understand it, especially topics like this. I got my understanding about this topic from a book by Tim LaHaye called Understanding Bible Prophecy for Yourself. He pretty much tells how he interprets the Bible but gives the passages and the Bible versions so you can read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. But about the 3 places in Hades, it all came from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. I know I kinda go on alot and I hope I answered your question. If I didn't just ask again...maybe I'll get it right then.

Remnant,

I don't really understand how you got necromancy out of anything I said in my post, that is not even what I was trying to explain.

When Lazarus and the Rich Man died, they both went to hades, just seperate parts. I believe that if Jesus was talking about a place where the soul goes after you die, than it has to be so. So the soul doesn't sleep when you die.

And when Jesus told the repentant theif "Verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paradise." not tomorrow or after the rapture, today . Since Jesus said that, that is all it takes for me to believe that when our bodies die, our souls go to be with our Lord.

[Old Timer]

Christians, I have a question for you:

Paul, Silas, and Timothy first went to the Macedonian port city of Thessalonica on the second missionary journey. Some think they were only there for a short time. Paul sent Timothy back to Thessalonica (1Thes. 3:1-2, 1Thes. 3:5) to encourage the believers and then to report back on the condition of the church there. Paul had certainly preached the Gospel that Christ died for our sins, that He was resurrected and that He is coming again. But there were problems.

Time was moving on and the Lord had not returned. The Thessalonians were concerned that some of them were dying before the Lord returned. They evidently thought these folks had perished.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

They must have been in sorrow over these departed as Paul describes them as having no hope.

It appears that the remaining Christians thought that the dead had perished. Paul evidently did not teach them they went to heaven after they died. These poor Thessalonians sure didn

[the_raven_1313]

Raven,

I read the King James Version, but I have also read books about the bible that help me understand it, especially topics like this. I got my understanding about this topic from a book by Tim LaHaye called Understanding Bible Prophecy for Yourself. He pretty much tells how he interprets the Bible but gives the passages and the Bible versions so you can read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. But about the 3 places in Hades, it all came from the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. I know I kinda go on alot and I hope I answered your question. If I didn't just ask again...maybe I'll get it right then.

Remnant,

Thanks for your reply. I also read the KJV but I have never came accross about there being 3 places in Hades. With saying that it came from the story of Lazarus and the rich man it will be easier for me to find and to read for myself. The reason that I started this topic is because it confuses me. There are a lot of verses for it but then there are verses against. For instance in Luke 23:42-43 the man being crucified next to Jesus asks him if Jesus will remember him and Jesus answers him that "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". So with saying that then soul sleep cannot be true. If it were then Jesus would have said to the man that he will prepare him a place in paradise, not tell the man that he would be in paradise with him today. But like I said there are many scriptures for soul sleep. Hence the confussion. Though I must say that a lot of the replies on this thread have been very interesting and I have been learning new things from it. But in saying that, I am still confused on what to believe.

[Old Timer]

Mark, a lot to cover here. Just let me briefly say that the phrase

[Gerioke]

I don't understand why this whole topic matters. If we do soul sleep, then when we awaken it will seem like no time has passed anyways. You can't really prepare for this type of thing. Don't worry about it.

[Gerioke]

John 14

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I hink it would be kind for Jesus to allow us to sleep while He prepares our room. I'd hae to be standing around with nowhere to go or nothing to do while I'm waiing for my room.

[Old Timer]

John 14

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I hink it would be kind for Jesus to allow us to sleep while He prepares our room. I'd hae to be standing around with nowhere to go or nothing to do while I'm waiing for my room.

Don't forget the next verse:

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.