What Do People See That Causes Them To Wonder?

[Diaste]

Well, there's a lot to this one. 

 

On 4/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Last Daze said:

I'm curious as to what other people think about the following passage, specifically, what do they see that makes them wonder:

 

*  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.   Rev 17:8-9

I think I'm going to go with the simplest solution I can find. 

Why isn't this just a reference to being alive, then dying, then coming back to life in the sight of contemporaries? That would be quite a wonder. Jesus did exactly that and look how great His influence has been. 

On 4/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Last Daze said:

Here's what we know:

*  The beast comes up out of the abyss, a prison for evil spirit beings.
*  When Revelation was written, the beast was not active but he previously had been (was, and is not).
*  The wonder results from deception because unbelievers are the ones who wonder.  The believers are not deceived, they don't wonder.
*  Their wondering has something to do with the beast's prior manifestation.

1) I agree

2) Not necessarily.

3) Perhaps. But I don't think the wonder they experience is born of deception.  The 8th kings resurrection appears to be nothing less than a real time resurrection in the sight of the entire world, as in Rev 13. The wonderers will be deceived as to motivation and outcomes for sure, but coming to life after being dead is going to be a real event which the whole world witnesses. Believers won't marvel as we know the True Messiah comes in the clouds riding a white horse, dressed as a mighty king, with a great army, prepared for battle; and we have been told well beforehand. 

4) Was there a prior manifestation? I have read something similar to this concerning Hitler. But, this king is the 8th, he is OF the 7 but also outside the 7, a new entity arising from something of the substance of the 7. What substance? Probably some religious doctrine, is my thoughts.

On 4/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Last Daze said:

My thoughts are that this beast is the evil angel prince that caused Rome to exercise dominion.  He worked in concert with Satan and Judas to kill the Messiah.  To my knowledge, Judas was the only person in the Bible who Satan personally entered (Luke 22:3).  Judas is called the son of perdition (John 17:12), a title also used for the man of sin.  I think there will be a reunion of these three in the not too distant future.

Maybe. But would anyone know? If some obscure Middle Eastern guy was raised from the dead would anyone really marvel at that?(I know that sounds like Jesus but the traitor isn't the Lord of All) I have heard of quite a few resurrections which occurred on the African continent. Did they really happen? Very difficult to confirm. It seems to me the resurrection of the beast, a man, is based on him being alive, then suffering death, then being made alive; contemporary to the time in which he will rule and near to the 2nd Advent.

This should be in close proximity to his existence and death. In the case of Jesus it was three days. I don't see any reason to deny this as a copycat life, death and resurrection.  If some guy began claiming, "Hey everyone, I'm Judas, from the 1st century, I sold out Jesus for some coin." Would anyone really marvel at that 2000 years later? No one knows him, we don't know what he looks like and what did he do other than sell a human soul? 

On 4/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Last Daze said:

The question is, "what do they show people?"  It's apparently something recognizable from history attributable to Rome, the beast's previous activity.

It may be something recognizable to those who pay attention to history but would that also apply to entire population of the earth? 

In Rev 17 it's, "and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is".

In Rev 13 it's, "And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."

Except for an exclusive contingent, a portion of the population alive at the time, somewhere around 8 billion people are going to wonder over this. This would be all people across all cultures and belief systems, hundreds of which deny the truth of biblical prophecy, amounting to billions in Asia alone.  Then, whatever and whomever this guy is, he has to overcome the current deluge of postmodern, Neo-Marxist epistemology pervading the West, and beyond, which has rewritten history through subjective reality. 

Many people these days think most of history has been rewritten or suppressed. I don't think they will be able to accept an unknown as a true wonder. 

So for these reasons I'm convinced he's going to be a well known, recognizable figure, with some widely acceptable political message, contemporary to the times in which he will be slain and resurrected, and near to the return of Jesus. Perhaps this person will engage in actions which shock a large part of the population of the earth, vaulting him into the spotlight on the world stage.

As far as whom he may be...Jewish lineage from somewhere in Mesopotamia is my best guess. 

[Diaste]

Hey William,

On 4/21/2023 at 1:01 PM, WilliamL said:

The 7 heads are the later fallen angels who ruled over the 7 Israel-oppressing empires: Egypt, Assyria, Chaldeo-Babylon etc.

I can never find where the scriptures say Israel oppressing empires is prophetic interpretive criteria. 

 

[WilliamL]

On 5/28/2023 at 2:28 AM, Diaste said:

Hey William,

I can never find where the scriptures say Israel oppressing empires is prophetic interpretive criteria. 

 

...nor do they definitively indicate anything else. However, I don't see that these 7 heads are just that number by coincidence; rather, they are the anti-"seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev. 5:6

The same principle is found in Hebraic mysticism, wherein the 10 lights of the Tree of Life are divided between 3 upper and 7 lower lights. Satan's kingdom mimics what was created above.

[Diaste]

On 5/30/2023 at 12:43 PM, WilliamL said:

...nor do they definitively indicate anything else. However, I don't see that these 7 heads are just that number by coincidence; rather, they are the anti-"seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." Rev. 5:6

I have no doubt there is a false image conjured by Satan of whatever can be used by him to usurp the sovereignty of the Most High God. I think it's abundantly clear this is the case with the beast and the false prophet, the assembly of an evil triumvirate with the dragon at the top, in opposition to the Most High; mimicking the Holy Hierarchy.

However, I cannot take that concept and apply it liberally to other cases when it won't survive context or logic.

Because there are 7 heads, and the angel says they represent seven mountains clears up what the 7 heads represent since, "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits." Seems that's a pretty simple and clear declaration of what the mountains are.

Because the angel also says, "There are also seven kings." does not mean the prophecy and it's interpretation is related to the Daniel 2 statue. It certainly doesn't open the way to add a couple kingdoms, that are never mentioned, to the statue that only included 4 kingdoms. Those four kingdoms are identified as Babylon, the one that followed Babylon, which we know now is Persia, and the one that followed Persia, which we know is Greece under Alexander the Macedonian; and finally the Iron Kingdom with it's pure existence and an impure iteration of the same.

The angel doesn't say, "The 7 heads are also 7 kings." so those 7 heads are not synonymous with the 7 kings, and the 7 kings are not related to the Dan 2 statue. There are SEVEN kings, the Dan 2 statue has one and only one king identified and that's Nebuchadnezzar.

You are that head of gold.

The other three(four) are kingdoms.

But after you, there will arise another kingdom, inferior to yours.

Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule the whole earth.

40Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron...

Then one could say "the feet and toes were made partly of fired clay and partly of iron" is a new kingdom, separate from the previous Iron Kingdom, but I don't agree; it's an iteration of the fourth kingdom, an impure but still strong version. 

The statue begins with Babylon and ends with the Iron/Clay Kingdom. That's 5 at most, not 7. The 4 are not kings but kingdoms, which incidentally survive to this day, and the 7 kings are not an interpretation of the 7 heads. 

When the angel says, "There are also seven kings." and we don't stop there but continue, I think it's easy to see these 7 kings are line of kings from which the 8th king will arise. They are used as an identifier for the 8th king and are not an interpretation of the 7 heads, and in no way related to the Dan 2 statue. 

On 5/30/2023 at 12:43 PM, WilliamL said:

The same principle is found in Hebraic mysticism, wherein the 10 lights of the Tree of Life are divided between 3 upper and 7 lower lights. Satan's kingdom mimics what was created above.

Mystic beliefs are hokum. The Kabbalah is the journey of man becoming God. Pure garbage, imo.

[WilliamL]

On 6/6/2023 at 3:11 AM, Diaste said:

The Kabbalah is the journey of man becoming God.

Care to substantiate this statement with evidence? Because it bears no truth to the case from what I have found.

Kabbalah is primarily about how God created and developed and governs and interacts with His creation. Classic works of Kabbalism have nothing to do at all with "man becoming God." (Although phony modern Kabbalists might try to sell you pop lit saying something like that.)

On 6/6/2023 at 3:11 AM, Diaste said:

Because there are 7 heads, and the angel says they represent seven mountains clears up what the 7 heads represent since, "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits." Seems that's a pretty simple and clear declaration of what the mountains are.

Really? Like here? --

Jer. 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

or here --

Dan. 2:35 ...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Both passages say that a mountain represents a kingdom or empire.

[douggg]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:11 AM, Diaste said:

When the angel says, "There are also seven kings." and we don't stop there but continue, I think it's easy to see these 7 kings are line of kings from which the 8th king will arise. They are used as an identifier for the 8th king and are not an interpretation of the 7 heads, and in no way related to the Dan 2 statue. 

THE TEN HORNS

In Daniel 2, the ten toes (kings implied) = the ten horn kings of Daniel 7 = the ten horn kings of Revelation 17 = the ten horn kings of Revelation 12 = the ten horn kings w/crowns in Revelation 13.

_______________________________________________________________

THE SEVEN HEADS

In Revelation 17, the 7 heads=7 kings...5 dead..1 is....1 yet to come = Revelation 12, the seven heads w/crowns (king 7 in power) = Revelation 13, the seven heads, crowns removed (king 7 has been killed).

______________________________________________________________

THE LITTLE HORN'S EVOLUTION INTO THE BEAST

little horn person (king 7) >  becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist, king of Israel coming in his own name > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then become the beast king (king 8).

________________________________________________________________________

KING 7 BECOMES KING 8

king 7 - leader over the ten king governing body of the EU, the Roman Empire in the end times.

king 8 - (formerly king 7 who will be killed, and comes back to life) dictator of the EU for 42 months, at the same time the ten horn kings have their crowns in Revelation 13 to rule with him.

Edited June 9, 2023 by douggg

[Diaste]

6 hours ago, douggg said:

THE TEN HORNS

In Daniel 2, the ten toes (kings implied) = the ten horn kings of Daniel 7 = the ten horn kings of Revelation 17 = the ten horn kings of Revelation 12 = the ten horn kings w/crowns in Revelation 13.

Yes. I think this as well. I'm not positive about Dan 7 being the same but it makes sense and doesn't contradict.

6 hours ago, douggg said:

_______________________________________________________________

THE SEVEN HEADS

In Revelation 17, the 7 heads=7 kings...5 dead..1 is....1 yet to come = Revelation 12, the seven heads w/crowns (king 7 in power) = Revelation 13, the seven heads, crowns removed (king 7 has been killed).

Sure, I can't equate the 7 heads in Rev 17 with the 7 kings when the interpretation is;

"The seven heads are seven mountains"

Now perhaps this "There are also seven kings." does equate to the 7 heads, but that isn't said here. Then the interpretation goes on, saying 5 of the 7 have passed. In Rev 13 one of the 7 heads was wounded and came back to life. In Rev 17, 5 of the heads 'have fallen'. 

I think this 7 kings, five have fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come, is a way to identify the 8th king before his rise to tyrannical domination of the world. And, this instance is unique and not synonymous with the 7 heads of Rev 12-13, nor does this; 'there are also 7 kings' equate with the '7 heads heads are 7 mountains'.

I may be wrong about this but at this time I am so convinced. 

6 hours ago, douggg said:

______________________________________________________________

THE LITTLE HORN'S EVOLUTION INTO THE BEAST

little horn person (king 7) >  becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist, king of Israel coming in his own name > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then become the beast king (king 8).

Maybe. At this point I'm convinced the 8th king is a stand alone; of the 7, not one of the 7.

6 hours ago, douggg said:

________________________________________________________________________

KING 7 BECOMES KING 8

king 7 - leader over the ten king governing body of the EU, the Roman Empire in the end times.

king 8 - (formerly king 7 who will be killed, and comes back to life) dictator of the EU for 42 months, at the same time the ten horn kings have their crowns in Revelation 13 to rule with him.

No Rome or EU for me. Mesopotamia, Seleucid(Assyrian), Babylon. That's the way it was, that's the way it will be. 

[douggg]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

Sure, I can't equate the 7 heads in Rev 17 with the 7 kings when the interpretation is;

"The seven heads are seven mountains"

The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman turned harlot sits.   It is talking about Rome, the harlot being the Vatican associated with Rome.

The seven kings are seven kings associated with Rome, specifically the Roman Empire, i.e. the Julio-Claudian bloodline.

head 1 - Julius Caesar

head 2 - Augustus

head 3 - Tiberius

head 4 - Caligula

head 5 - Claudius

head 6 - Nero

head 7 - end times little horn, leader over ten EU kings, Roman Empire in the end times.

no head 8 - has to be one of the 7 kings.   king 7 must continue it says  a short space - i.e. the 42 months as the beast king.

king 7, the little horn person after he has been killed and brought back to life as the beast king, is king 8.     Dictator of the EU.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by douggg

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, douggg said:

The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman turned harlot sits.   It is talking about Rome, the harlot being the Vatican associated with Rome.

The seven kings are seven kings associated with Rome, specifically the Roman Empire, i.e. the Julio-Claudian bloodline.

head 1 - Julius Caesar

head 2 - Augustus

head 3 - Tiberius

head 4 - Caligula

head 5 - Claudius

head 6 - Nero

head 7 - end times little horn, leader over ten EU kings, Roman Empire in the end times.

no head 8 - has to be one of the 7 kings.   king 7 must continue it says  a short space - i.e. the 42 months as the beast king.

king 7, the little horn person after he has been killed and brought back to life as the beast king, is king 8.     Dictator of the EU.

 

 

Doesn't work if the Revelation was given to John in 93 AD instead of 65 AD. If the later date, then there were 13 Roman emperors; if earlier, then it's possible.

I don't know for sure which date. I tend toward the later date. I'm convinced this is so as the Temple had to be destroyed before the Revelation was given. That, and the evidence that says exile was the way Domitian handled the dissidents where Nero, and Vespasian, would just execute. 

That's why John was exiled to Patmos and not executed; Domitian was emperor at the time, in 93-95 AD. 

But of course there is the never ending dispute about the dates.

 

[Diaste]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:04 PM, WilliamL said:

Care to substantiate this statement with evidence? Because it bears no truth to the case from what I have found.

I can't help but see the journey from man to god when reading about the 4 worlds. 

On 6/8/2023 at 1:04 PM, WilliamL said:

Kabbalah is primarily about how God created and developed and governs and interacts with His creation. Classic works of Kabbalism have nothing to do at all with "man becoming God." (Although phony modern Kabbalists might try to sell you pop lit saying something like that.)

Sure. But it's stuff like this that's highly suspect.

"The world of Assiyah is somewhat contrary. The Master Creator, who is a supreme artist, has created a most beautiful and diverse creation. It is a creation of G‑d alone, yet G‑d is hidden to the degree that His creations are not aware of their Creator. Somehow it is possible in this world to totally deny the presence of G‑d, as He is completely concealed. It is this total concealment that allows this world to be a realm of free choice, where a person can choose to serve or ignore, as well as the realm of challenge, where the hand of G‑d is sometimes overt and at other times covert. This world is the ultimate purpose of creation, and it is here that G‑d wishes His creatures to create an abode for Him. This is achieved through adherence to Torah and Mitzvot. In Torah, G‑d has communicated the truth of creation and provided a path through which people can navigate the choppy waters of life. This is accomplished at every stage by attaching themselves to Him through Mitzvot."

By Nissan Dovid Dubov

https://w2.chabad.org/media/images/287/muKy2873758.jpg

Rabbi Nissan Dovid Dubov, a rabbinic scholar, lecturer and author, is director of Chabad Lubavitch in Wimbledon, UK.

On 6/8/2023 at 1:04 PM, WilliamL said:

Really? Like here? --

Jer. 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

or here --

Dan. 2:35 ...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Both passages say that a mountain represents a kingdom or empire.

In that prophecy, of course. This feels a bit like the law of first mention, a boondoggle of interpretive hermeneutics. 

In Jeremiah 51 this is a prophecy about the destruction of Babylon, with Babylon likened to "har: mountain, hill, hill country".

In Dan 2 Jesus' kingdom is "tur: mountain".

Both have the context of a great kingdom, the first is destroyed, the 2nd flourishes.

In Rev 17:9 it's the same term as in Rev 6:14 and 6:19, which, in Rev 6, is a mountain made of rocks, not likened to a kingdom or empire. In Rev 17:9 the text says the woman sits on 7 'oros', or rock mountains, the same 'oros' from Rev 6:14 and Rev 6:19. 

But we have to look at 'there are also 7 kings'. In the text from Rev 17:12, king is not the same as kingdom. King is 'basileis' and kingdom is 'basileian'. This differentiates between the sovereignty inherent in the realm and the one who wields the power and authority of that realm. 

The king can and does change, the kingdom itself lasts, the two are not synonymous. This is seen in Rev 17:12 as well when the 10 kings have no kingdom. They are kings without the inherent authority of a realm. Kings can exist even if they have no kingdom; which is the case with these 10. 

So then, the text in Rev 17:10 doesn't require any kingdom to be associated with these kings. Logically, I concede they are likely associated with a realm where they did indeed rule, one would be ignorant of reality to ignore that.

But, in this line of kings, the 8th is said to be 'OF the seven'. I wonder, in what way is the 8th 'of' the seven? The term is 'from' or 'from out of'. So what links these 7 kings, not kingdoms, so that the 8th king shares the attributes of the previous 7? 

All of the above convinces me it's individual kings, not kingdoms, hence, it's not the 4 kingdoms from the statue, nor is it added empires that do not appear in the text in Dan 2. 

What I'm convinced connects the 8th to the previous 7 is lineage and region: Bloodline and geography.

If the beast is the 8th king, and he is, and Daniel says the little horn, which is the endtime beast of Rev 13, arises from one of the four notable horns, and those four notable horns are Ptolemy, Cassander, Lysimachus and Seleucus, but then Dan 11 clearly follows the Seleucid lineage to at least AE IV, it's my conclusion the beast is coming from the Seleucid line, the region of Mesopotamia in general, Syria specifically[or perhaps somewhere in the region of the ancient Assyrian Empire], and has not one thing to do with Rome or Roman emperors.