What Do People See That Causes Them To Wonder?

[Last Daze]

I'm curious as to what other people think about the following passage, specifically, what do they see that makes them wonder:

*  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.   Rev 17:8-9

Here's what we know:

*  The beast comes up out of the abyss, a prison for evil spirit beings.
*  When Revelation was written, the beast was not active but he previously had been (was, and is not).
*  The wonder results from deception because unbelievers are the ones who wonder.  The believers are not deceived, they don't wonder.
*  Their wondering has something to do with the beast's prior manifestation.

My thoughts are that this beast is the evil angel prince that caused Rome to exercise dominion.  He worked in concert with Satan and Judas to kill the Messiah.  To my knowledge, Judas was the only person in the Bible who Satan personally entered (Luke 22:3).  Judas is called the son of perdition (John 17:12), a title also used for the man of sin.  I think there will be a reunion of these three in the not too distant future.

The question is, "what do they show people?"  It's apparently something recognizable from history attributable to Rome, the beast's previous activity.

[Last Daze]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:52 PM, Last Daze said:

The question is, "what do they show people?"  It's apparently something recognizable from history attributable to Rome, the beast's previous activity.

One thought that I've had centers around archeology.  Whether Judas is raised from the dead for this specific purpose, or someone claims to be Judas is not the point.  Getting people to believe that the man of sin is Judas is what matters and that might be accomplished through some archeological revelation.  What better way to cast doubt on the entire New Testament than to deceive people into thinking that Jesus failed, and who better than an "immortal" Judas to "set the record straight"?

[WilliamL]

On 4/19/2023 at 2:52 PM, Last Daze said:

I'm curious as to what other people think about the following passage, specifically, what do they see that makes them wonder:

*  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who live on the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was, and is not, and will come.   Rev 17:8-9

Here's what we know:

*  The beast comes up out of the abyss, a prison for evil spirit beings.
*  When Revelation was written, the beast was not active but he previously had been (was, and is not).
*  The wonder results from deception because unbelievers are the ones who wonder.  The believers are not deceived, they don't wonder.
*  Their wondering has something to do with the beast's prior manifestation.

My thoughts are that this beast is the evil angel prince that caused Rome to exercise dominion.  He worked in concert with Satan and Judas to kill the Messiah.  To my knowledge, Judas was the only person in the Bible who Satan personally entered (Luke 22:3).  Judas is called the son of perdition (John 17:12), a title also used for the man of sin.  I think there will be a reunion of these three in the not too distant future.

The question is, "what do they show people?"  It's apparently something recognizable from history attributable to Rome, the beast's previous activity.

Deep subject, so to speak. What must be remembered is that the rebellious fallen angels were cast into the abyss at the time of the Flood, long before Babylon, let alone Rome, came into being.

Which is why so much emphasis in Rev. is on the beast's 7 heads, which were the spiritual post-flood lineage of the beast,  who is currently in the abyss. The 7 heads are the later fallen angels who ruled over the 7 Israel-oppressing empires: Egypt, Assyria, Chaldeo-Babylon etc.

But when the bad daddy of all of the fallen angels arrives back in the world...whoa, baby, it will be an experience in the powers of earthly evil unlike any seen on earth since before the flood. So no wonder the wonder.

[Dennis1209]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:52 PM, Last Daze said:

I'm curious as to what other people think about the following passage, specifically, what do they see that makes them wonder:

I have similar thoughts and interpretations as you described. It is odd (or is it) that only two people are defined as the son of perdition (John 17:12 & 2 Thes. 2:3). There seems to be an association or commonality between the two. As you mentioned, Satan has already indwelled Judas, and the Antichrist will too.

Both references use the same Greek word for perdition. Those destined to destruction are υἱοὶ τῆς ἀ. J 17:12; The Lawless One is also υἱὸς τῆς ἀ. 2 Th 2:3.^[1] ἀπώλεια apōleia 18× consumption, destruction; waste, profusion, Mt. 26:8; Mk. 14:4; destruction, state of being destroyed, Acts 25:6; eternal ruin, perdition, Mt. 7:13; Acts 8:20 [684] See destruction; ruin; waste.^[2]

There are various thoughts about Revelation 17:8-9. I favor one or both of the following:

The beast is the monster from the Abyss, i.e., the satanic incarnation of idolatrous power, described in 13:1ff. (q.v. ), mentioned earlier in 11:7, and whose destruction is seen in 19:19–20. John is told that the beast “once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss.” This seems clearly to be a paraphrase of the idea in chapter 13 of the sword-wounded beast who was healed (13:3, 14); the language is similar, the astonishment of the world’s inhabitants identical, and the threefold emphasis on this spectacular feature is repeated in both contexts (13:3, 12, 14; 17:8 bis, 11).

The play here on the tenses “was, … is not, … will come” refers to a three-stage history of the beast that requires a mind with wisdom to understand its mystery. Isaiah refers to the chaos monster as “Rahab the Do-Nothing,” i.e., the monster thought to energize Egypt is in reality inactive, rendered impotent by the hand of the Lord (Isa 30:7). That John’s beast “is not” refers to his defeat by the Lamb on Calvary. To those who worship only the Father and the Son, all other gods are nothing or nonexistent (1 Cor 8:4–6). Satan once had unchallenged power over the earth (“was,” cf. Luke 4:6 Heb 2:14–15). Now he is a defeated sovereign (“is not,” cf. John 12:31–32); yet he is given a “little time” to oppose God and his people (12:12c; 13:5; 20:3b) before his final sentencing to “destruction” (apōleia, v. 11; cf. Matt 7:13; John 17:12; Rom 9:22; 2 Thess 2:3). It is this apparent revival of Satan’s power and authority over the world after his mortal wound (Gen 3:15) that causes the deceived of earth to follow him.¹

 

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^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 127. Print.

^[2] Mounce, William D. Mounce’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words 2006: 1095. Print.

[Montana Marv]

My thought that this is Satan once he is bound for the 1000 years. To be released, and deceive the nations one last time, surround the city.  All who follow him are destroyed and Satan goes directly to the LOF.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So no wonder the wonder.

I can agree that things are going to get much more bizarre, even more than the current gaslighting.  What I find fascinating about Revelation 17:8-9 is why the people wonder. It's stated that they wonder because "he was, and is not, and will come."  There's something that ties him to the first century or before that people will recognize.  It is true that the man of sin deceives the world because of the signs it is given him to perform, but this wonderment stems from something different.

[Last Daze]

18 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

John is told that the beast “once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss.”

Thanks for your thoughts Dennis.

I see the above as a reference to the evil angel prince of Rome who caused Rome to exercise dominion, who tried (along with Judas and Satan) to stop the Christ and failed, who was then cast into the abyss while the gospel was preached around the world.  He has been released in these last days and leads the spiritual forces of wickedness in setting the stage for the return of Satan possessed Judas. They're picking up where they left off in the first century however, their goal is different this time around as laid out in Rev 12 & 13.

[Last Daze]

13 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

My thought that this is Satan once he is bound for the 1000 years. To be released, and deceive the nations one last time, surround the city.  All who follow him are destroyed and Satan goes directly to the LOF.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks Marv.

Satan is the dragon, not the beast.  People wonder at the beast.

[WilliamL]

On 4/22/2023 at 10:18 AM, Last Daze said:

On 4/21/2023 at 3:26 PM, Dennis1209 said:

John is told that the beast “once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss.”

Thanks for your thoughts Dennis.

I see the above as a reference to the evil angel prince of Rome who caused Rome to exercise dominion, who tried (along with Judas and Satan) to stop the Christ and failed, who was then cast into the abyss while the gospel was preached around the world. 

There is no scriptural or secular evidence for anyone being cast into the Abyss since the Flood. The Abyss is to remain locked up until the 5th Trumpet. Enoch 10, Rev. 9:1-2

Rather, the 6th head of the Beast, the spirit over Rome, was the "one of his [the Beast's] heads ... mortally wounded" when the Roman Empire fell in 476 AD; but it was later "healed" to become the Holy Roman Empire. That spirit remains a part of the Beast, which is a collective spirit of a (formerly) higher realm.

We are dealing with spiritual hierarchies here, and mankind has not experienced anything, since before the Flood, with spirits having the same level of power as the Beast.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/2780-the-beast-part-3-who-is-the-beast/

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by WilliamL

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rather, the 6th head of the Beast, the spirit over Rome, was the "one of his [the Beast's] heads ... mortally wounded" when the Roman Empire fell in 476 AD; but it was later "healed" to become the Holy Roman Empire. That spirit remains a part of the Beast, which is a collective spirit of a (formerly) higher realm.

I guess we all look through the same glass dimly and see different things.

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Abyss is to remain locked up until the 5th Trumpet. Enoch 10, Rev. 9:1-2

The demons begged Jesus not to be cast into the abyss.  It must have been possible.  Also Daniel 7 suggests some abyssal activity.  Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

We are dealing with spiritual hierarchies here, and mankind has not experienced anything, since before the Flood

Agree, fortunately we've been told ahead of time what to expect.  Jesus is God and if you personally didn't see Him return, He didn't, regardless of whatever signs and wonders are used to try and convince you otherwise.