How can "the Church" be raptured BEFORE Jesus is risen?

[truth7t7]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:19 PM, Charles R. Sabo said:

The first fruits of the Resurrection of Life are immortals now in heaven with their immortal bodies.

I Disagree, the immortal body will be received on (The Last Day) at the Lord's return, when the resurrection of "All" takes place

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited April 24, 2023 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:02 PM, Michael37 said:

Well written comment, @Dennis1209

I balk at the use of this vision of 24 elders around the throne of God to prove some point about when the rapture occurs. 

A supernatural vision is shown John and he writes about it, having received very specific details about divine arrangements that impact human affairs, 

Well said

Peter considered himself an elder, and was writing to the elders, this being simply leaders in the Church

The 24 elders have crowns and white reinvent, showing they had overcome and had their reward

Who are these 24 elders? They could be taken from a historical list of untold thousand that have overcome, unknown  

1 Peter 5:1-4KJV

1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by truth7t7

[Michael37]

9 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Well said

Peter considered himself an elder, and was writing to the elders, this being simply leaders in the Church

The 24 elders have crowns and white reinvent, showing they had overcome and had their reward

Who are these 24 elders? They could be taken from a historical list of untold thousand that have overcome, unknown  

 

Yes. Whomever and whatever God wants around His throne, there they will surely be, whenever He wants them to be.

[Charles R. Sabo]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

 

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So Truth717,

    You are implying that the second death for all of the unrighteous occurs before Judgement Day, since you presume that the first resurrection occurs for all of us at the Second Coming of Christ?? There is so much theology that you are missing! You have misunderstood what Jesus had meant by "the last day." You have presumed  that He was speaking of His Second Coming, which will be the last day of the seven-year Seventieth Week of Daniel. There will be millions of mortals to yet endure the 1,000 years. They will have a resurrection also, but that resurrection is not to be understood to be included within our resurrection. The Last day that Jesus is talking about are several of "the last day" to come. One of them will desfinately be on the same day as Judgment Day for the wicked, but we (Bride) will have already been resurrected for 1,007 years. On the last Day called Judgment Day, those mortals (still alive) will either be resurrected and sent immediately to heaven, meanwhile the wicked mortals will have no hell to go to. They will be resurrected as immortals and sent to the White Throne Judgment immediately. This will be the Last Day of the old Creation. Meanwhile, the interepretation of the Last Day also refers to the Last Day of the church age (rapture), the Last day of the seven years (Trib. Saints ressurrection). 

1) The Old Testament Saints....where are they now? Matthew 27:52-53 indicate their was a resurrection of Old Testement Saints just after Jesus' resurrection. 

2) The interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:1-8 implies that the removal of the church (Bride) will occur before the seven-year Seventieth Week of Daniel even begins (day of the Lord). That will be my resurrection, and hopefully yours. 

Revelation 20:4 implies that the first resrirrection is complete at that point...no mention of the Old Testament Saints anywhere.

3) The second death for the unrighteous will only occur once, which seems to be after the 1,000 year Millenial Kingdom of Christ. I don't see anything in Revelation 20 that links them together on the same day with our resurrection. 

The Last Day:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the Earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. The Judge has been assigned by His superior to sit on the Great White Throne, in order to Judge the dead. “For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:” (Jn. 5:22) The Son of God (Jesus the Messiah) will sit on His Great White Throne and judge the dead of the Earth, when He will open the book of their works, which had been recorded. Jesus (the Son) has been given this authority, because He had been born out of mankind as a man, and fulfilled His sacrifice; because He is the Son of man, He qualifies and the one who will judge them. “And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.” (Jn. 5:27) Because Jesus is the second person of the Triune Godhead, and He had incarnated into a Man and died for mankind, He will judge them.

When Jesus takes His seat on the Great White Throne, the basic elements of the Earth and the first heaven will dissolve with a fervent heat. The first Creation will be destroyed (the Earth and the heaven fled away). The first creation will disappear from before the face of the Creator, (from whose face). It is all going to burn! Those who will be still alive at this time, will have no place to go, unlike the saints who will be taken to heaven (and there was found no place for them). “Them” of this last clause, can be ascertained to be the unrighteous left of the multitudes on the Earth, at the time that the Earth will be burned, even of its molecular structure. There will be no place reserved for the unrighteous (no more hell); they will all burn.

 

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Pet. 3:10)

 

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Please understand that there is no allegory being used in this verse. John first declared the setting, while in the verse to follow, he explained how the dead had gotten there. The dead refer to all who were dead, waiting for their final judgment. They will have been waiting in hell (Bottomless Pit) ever since they had died their first death (physical death). The dead also is referring to those whose soul and spirit had no place to go, when the first Earth and heaven are burned up (see verse 20:11). When someone refers to someone being in hell for ever and ever, it is not biblically correct. Hell (Bottomless pit) is a temporary place of torment, until the day comes, which God (Jesus) will sit and judge them according to their works. As John had stated, the dead are going to be judged out of the things written in those books. The books, which will be opened, will be the books where each bad thing that someone had committed in their lifetime is written. As we have already referred to previously, the Book of Life is the book where all people, who are righteous, have their names written (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 21:27; 22:19). Those written in the Book of Life, will live eternity as an immortal in God’s image and be with them (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) forever.

Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Here is one of those verses, where you will find one instance of allegory being used once, then uses literal text for the rest. John has provided the breakdown of what had just occurred, in order to come to the point of verse 20:13.

The sea, by now, is understood to be the multitudes of people of the Earth, when using allegory. But, that is the only allegorical reference in this passage. The multitudes of people of the Earth, who had not yet died (after the fire sent down by God the Father), will die as verse 20:11 had implied (and there was found no place for them); the creation will burn with fervent heat, which will cause the remaining unrighteous (the sea) to die; then they will be caught up. Because the Resurrection of Damnation (Jn. 5:29) is their destiny, they too will be resurrected and put before the Great White Judgment Throne of Christ. These are those who will have been in rebellion against Jesus, and will not worship Him as their God, Lord, and Savior, who will have been remaining alive on the Earth at this time. It will be that they will be caught up as dead, because of the loss of their living environment (and there was found no place for them). Therefore, their deaths would be instantaneous with the destruction of the old Earth and the first heaven (Earth’s atmosphere). When the sea gives them up, the sea will only consist of dead people (multitudes), thus they are referred to as the dead.  They will be resurrected in order to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment of God (Resurrection of Damnation [Jn. 5:29]).

In addition, John saw those who were dead in hell, resurrected also (hell delivered up the dead). The Greek language has two names of places, which both are equal to the Hebrew noun “sheol;” John identified them both in the writing of this book; The noun “death” is translated from the Greek noun ‘thanatos,’ which means: “the abode of the dead.” The second word “hell” is translated from the Greek noun “hades,” which is defined as: “the nether world, the realm of the dead.” For better understanding to those who read this in the Greek language, John included both death and hell (thanatos and hades), when it would have been one word “sheol” in the Hebrew tongue. Those, included from hell, will also be a part of the Resurrection of Damnation (Jn. 5:29). All of humanity, who has been cast into hell after their physical death, will be resurrected into an immortal body; they will have no more fallen flesh on them. They will be like Adam and Eve before the fall; they will bow their knee to Jesus and confess Him as their Lord.

 

¹⁰ That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth;

¹¹ And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Phil. 2:10-11)

 

As stated in the previous verse, all of the dead will be judged according their works by Jesus, the Son of man; the most important factor is, they will be unforgiven for their sins, because they would not trust in the work of Messiah on the cross. This will be the determining factor; for all of their sins, no good works will save them; if they would have trusted in the finished work already done by Jesus the Messiah, they would not be judged at all. “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” (Rom. 5:9)

⁸ For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of GOD:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

 In the case with the Old Testament wicked, they were scattered across the globe and worshipped their false gods, while knowing that the God of Adam and Eve, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and King David is the only one true living God. With a little help from Satan, his angels, and demons, it seems that they needed a god that they could touch and see, in order to have faith. But God will eliminate that one factor, by eliminating the satanic realm for one thousand years, and the fallen flesh of man still will rebel against God, when He will be sitting on the throne right in Jerusalem. Satan will not have that much work really to do when he is loosed from the Bottomless Pit, the rebellion will have been already stewing in the pot.  

 Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Death will be all those dead from the destruction of the first Earth and heaven, as noted in verses 20:11, and hell will be all who had died before the destruction of the first Earth and heaven. After being judged by the Great Judge of the Earth, death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire. Upon this judgment being afflicted upon those who had just kneeled before the throne of Jesus, their second death will come upon them. Their spirit will die and thus, they will have all faced their second death; their first death will have been their physical death of their mortal bodies, while their second death will be upon their death of their spirit. Their souls will be cast into the lake of fire burning pitch and brimstone for eternity.

This will be three Last days to occur:

1) The Last Day of the church age (rapture)

2) The Last day of the seven years (Trib. Saints ressurrection).

3)The Last Day of the old Creation.

 

 

³⁹ And this is the Father's will which has sent Me, that of all which HE has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

⁴⁰ And this is the will of HIM that sent Me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes in Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:39-40)

 

 

 

 

 

---

[1] Sabo, The Feasts, The Harvest, and The Resurrection, 62.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Charles R. Sabo
mispelled a word

[truth7t7]

2 hours ago, Charles R. Sabo said:

 

You have responded inside of my post, I would request that you refrain from this in the future

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement on the last day (The End) there won't be a millennial kingdom on this earth as many claim

Jesus Is The Lord

[SACREDWARRIOR]

Hello,

  I cant recall where, In the new testament after Christs resurrection the is a verse that says MANY OLD SAINTS WHERE SEEN IN THE STREETS...

 They followed Christ out of Paradise.....

 THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS,

 Clarence

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:29 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Lumping numerous questions together with comments is confusing. Can we pick one question to discuss and progress from there? For me, dissecting one topic with a question at a time is not as confusing.

From what I have seen, when events are taken out of context, they can be made to fit whatever suits the person doing it.  If it has to fit within a bunch of different perimeters, it serves to keep OUR thoughts out and keeps everything as Gods Truth. 

So that is why for me, dissecting is the opposite of what we are told to do, and is the beginning of how we get led down all these roads of false doctrines.


There is a KINGDOM in heaven.  What we have on earth is a shadow of that kingdom. The temple plans were a PATTERN after what already existed. 

So why would 'elders' need to be imported from earth?  Doesn't it make more sense that the order set forth on earth 'follows' after an order that already exists in heaven,

rather than MAKING A CHANGE to it?

So UNTIL God gives us the meaning of the '24' elders, that is what they are and should just be accepted as such.  IMO anyhow.  
 

 

On 4/22/2023 at 7:38 AM, Montana Marv said:

N.T. Scripture.  Nothing in the O.T. ever hinted at a Bride of Christ/Church; it was a Mystery.

No, the 'mystery' was that SALVATION would be opened to all. 

It is the PTRD that ADDS a 'bride of Christ' that isn't WRITTEN BY GODS WORDS, as it also adds 'a church age' SO it can OVERCOME at the end of the AGE it MADE UP and not have to make it to the END of the AGE THAT IS WRITTEN.  

Please, show me where to find 'bride of Christ' or 'church age' written in the words of God cause THAT will expose whether the doctrine is of GOD or if it is indeed, a doctrine OF MAN.   

Pre tribulation, bride of Christ, church age, ALL MADE UP by man.  Just like ANOTHER ADVENT/descent and ascent, another rising of the dead, another alive and changed, and whatever else needs to be added. Then we have the 'dividing of a house' WHEN we are told a house divided can't stand.  AND how we have been SEEKING TRUTH for YEARS, yet they are supposed to 'learn it all' in the matter of A moment by SEEING a rapture, and not only won't they be 'of faith' having SEEN, but they have to come to understanding BEFORE the image is set up with NO ONE who knows anything is AVAILABLE ANYMORE. 

Seriously, try and show that AS THE BEST WAY TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALs in any other area of life and get laughed out of existence.  

Can you IMAGINE being one of the 2 Witnesses about to be sent to the earth to proclaim Gods Truth being told 

"and by the way, THE ENTIRE ARMY, 2000 years in the making with all the knowledge and wisdom having been poured out upon them concerning the deception about to come upon the world,

will disappear right before you get there, so the world you will be sent into will NOT ONLY be in total chaos with millions of people having disappeared, but those left will be falling into deception through the lying signs and wonders of Satan who is SO GOOD that even Gods elect would have been deceived,

so you will NOT be finding ANYONE of faith, but lots of people who had rejected it but NOW SCARED by what they SAW, will be available to teach everything they need to know BEFORE the image is set up and they take the mark of the beast  and you just need to let them know that they possibly will need to get ready for a 10 day trial that might end with their death so the HOLY SPIRIT could speak through them, and this is GODS PLAN

TO BRING AS MANY TO REPENTANCE AS POSSIBLE.  

Why is it the church can't bring in new souls today? 
MAYBE it is BECAUSE THEY ARE TEACHING that GODs way not only doesn't MAKE ANY SENSE, it doesn't seem to apply the same to everyone.  


 IF I DIDN'T BELIEVE IN GOD and someone was telling ME PTR is how God works, I wouldn't believe in God either. 

MAYBE we SHOULD STICK WITH EXACTLY WHAT IS WRITTEN,

rather than with the things men say/conclude/assume, LIKE GOD TELLS US.  

 

1Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

2Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

4And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.

5In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.



WHAT IT DOESN'T SAY IS 'HIDDEN here a little, HIDDEN there a little", as those of the PTRD INSIST it does. 



 

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;

MOCKING GODS WAY so they could go about it in their own way


that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

22Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

23Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.

24Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?

25When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?

26For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.

27For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.

28Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.

29This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

 

[DeighAnn]

19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And so the Rapture of our day will only be for NT saints.

That is what I suspect is the case: these elders are Gospel-saved OT saints.

The Church of the NT era is not meant to prevail against the gates of Hades in order to let the damned out; rather, the Church that was formed by Jesus in Hades prevailed against its gates from keeping them in.

I agree the OT saints would most likely be the 'elders', if they aren't just of the Kingdom of God to begin with like the living creatures.  

I also agree, the alive and remaining who are changed at the return of Christ are NT saints who have overcome and endured to the end.  

And talk about the MOST perfect way to go from one age and realm to the next.  If you have the mark of the Beast, you fail have failed, and if you have endured to the end, you have passed.  Let them grow together until the harvest, kill the tares and transform the wheat and let the new day begin.  What a perfect judgment in which EVERYONE is completely responsible for WHO they are when Christ returns.  No saying, I didn't or I did it's either marked or not marked.   Had enough oil or didn't.  
 

[DeighAnn]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:46 AM, BibleWords said:

These are the “saints” who come to Christ after the rapture.  Not the church. Tribulation saints are not the Bride of Christ. Yet they are “saints” because they have trusted Christ for salvation.

The only way to come to 'LIFE' after the all the alive and remaining are changed is to do so by works during the Lords Day.  

God is SENDING witnesses to EARTH, not removing them.  Gods GOAL is that all come to repentance through all generations, and that wouldn't exclude the final one.  All of us are sheep led to the slaughter, there are no sheep written of in the words of God that are led to the PTR, that is what MAN SAYS, not the words of God.  

Edited April 25, 2023 by DeighAnn

[BibleWords]

5 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The only way to come to Christ after the all the alive and remaining are changed are to do so by works during the Lords Day.  

God is SENDING witnesses to EARTH, not removing them.  Gods GOAL is that all come to repentance through all generations, and that wouldn't exclude the final one.  All of us are sheep led to the slaughter, there are no sheep written of in the words of God that are led to the PTR, that is what MAN SAYS, not the words of God.  

You are incorrect.

After the rapture many will come to Christ.  These are tribulation saints seen under the alter in Rev.

These are saved after the church is raptured in Rev. 4.

These “saints” are even spoken of separately in Rev. They are the souls who came through great tribulation. Not all saints are designated that way.

These saints are not the church.

They are different people than the church.  The church never is seen in the tribulation.