Are GODS ELECT truly those REJECTING Him today?

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

IF the TRIB SAINTS WERE BELIEVERS TODAY, THEN THEY WOULD BE RAPTURED PRE TRIB...see the problem?  

I do see the problem. I see it every time the rules of logic and the meanings of words are ignored.

The above quote highlights this very problem because:

a. By definition Tribulation Saints are those who become Christians during the Tribulation.

b. Anyone raptured before the Tribulation is therefore NOT a Tribulation Saint.

The same problems of logic and meaning arise in the title of this thread because:

a. The Elect are the faithful who are chosen of God.

b. The Non-elect are the unfaithful who are NOT chosen by God.

c. Anyone rejecting God today cannot be defined as one of God's Elect, thus the thread title is an oxymoron.

  An oxymoron (plurals: oxymorons and oxymora) is a figure of speech that juxtaposes concepts with opposite meanings within a word or in a phrase that is a self-contradiction. As a rhetorical device, an oxymoron illustrates a point to communicate and reveal a paradox.^[1][2] A general meaning of "contradiction in terms" is recorded by the 1902 edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.^{[3]   [Wkpd]}

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi, Align?

As I recall reading, at least eight were saved from the flood the great flood. Perhaps several billions were not.

 From Sodom, Lot and at least two daughters were saved, out from God's wrath over Sodom and Gomorah.

Of the millions that fled Egypt  with Moses at command under God that then regretted their new freedom's responsibility of  obedience of God, none were allowed entry into the promised land except, what was it two? Yet there were many born during that great sojourn within  a small desert and they did enter,  did they not?

The wandering in the desert isn't an example of being saved right before God's wrath falls on those that reject salvation.

The wandering in the desert is a disciplinary action. Moses intervened earlier on the Israelites behalf and saved all of them from destruction.

That's why I didn't use that as an example. 

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

As to millions and millions being saved out from a great tribulation to come; yes evidently so, what with 144,000 salesmen under guidance and command of God all from the 12 tribes of the greatest sales people on earth. Why not millions, many millions even billions? All  a matter of scale.

This is a pretrib idea that is pure speculation. No role for the 144k is described other than following Christ wherever He goes. 

That, and the fact the 144k are first fruits to God and the Lamb, pretty much cancels the idea they are left on earth while the entire Christian community is raptured pretribulationally. 

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

At the end all is going to burn, and there will be a new heaven, a new earth, a new Jerusalem. Does it really matter a wit what any of us think might be the sequence of events to come? They are going to come regardless.

It matters a great deal. We are being told by Jesus what's to come and what it looks like. We are specifically exhorted to "Watch", by the Lord Himself.  I feel it's an exercise in trust, belief, hope and faithfulness. 

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Individual security, hope certain, is that God has foreknown and predestined  those that will be saved out from his wrath. That security is through the willing sacrifice made by Jesus for those given to him by his father. He loses not a one. The Holy Spirit calls each that are to be saved out from God's wrath (against sin) to turn about and see, see that Jesus is Lord, God,  and personal savior.

I can see why you think it doesn't matter. You should really look into what the scriptures say about predestination. 

21 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Praise God  his mercy from everlasting to everlasting. 

 

Amen!

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I do see the problem. I see it every time the rules of logic and the meanings of words are ignored.

The above quote highlights this very problem because:

a. By definition Tribulation Saints are those who become Christians during the Tribulation.

b. Anyone raptured before the Tribulation is therefore NOT a Tribulation Saint.

The same problems of logic and meaning arise in the title of this thread because:

a. The Elect are the faithful who are chosen of God.

b. The Non-elect are the unfaithful who are NOT chosen by God.

c. Anyone rejecting God today cannot be defined as one of God's Elect, thus the thread title is an oxymoron.

  An oxymoron (plurals: oxymorons and oxymora) is a figure of speech that juxtaposes concepts with opposite meanings within a word or in a phrase that is a self-contradiction. As a rhetorical device, an oxymoron illustrates a point to communicate and reveal a paradox.^[1][2] A general meaning of "contradiction in terms" is recorded by the 1902 edition of the Oxford English Dictionary.^{[3]   [Wkpd]}

@DeighAnn is saying the contradiction is in the pretrib ideology; unless I misunderstood. 

If all the believers are gone, how do others in the trib become believers with no preaching and teaching? 

So she's saying there must be some belief in those that go into the trib or it's less likely they will turn to Christ in the trib, with no one left to guide them. 

But then that can't be or they would have been taken pretrib. 

I have argued similarly but a little differently. 

 

 

 

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The wandering in the desert isn't an example of being saved right before God's wrath falls on those that reject salvation.

 

I disagree, but that is okay.

See Numbers 14

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

@DeighAnn is saying the contradiction is in the pretrib ideology; unless I misunderstood. 

If all the believers are gone, how do others in the trib become believers with no preaching and teaching? 

So she's saying there must be some belief in those that go into the trib or it's less likely they will turn to Christ in the trib, with no one left to guide them. 

But then that can't be or they would have been taken pretrib. 

I have argued similarly but a little differently. 

Your argument hinges on there being no Bibles or historical records, or persecution of dissidents in the Tribulation.

David Jeremiah does a narration on how 144,000 Jewish men convert to worshipping Christ in the Tribulation, obviously refusing the Mark of the Beast.

This explains the Tribulation Martyrs and Overcomers. See Rev 14:13, 15:2, 20:4.

[Shilohsfoal]

8 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Not sure I understand what you meant there, but I guess in the end, it all depends on whose PTRD we are talking about.  No way for ME to tell one from the other, or prove one or the other wrong, as nothing is written about any of them.


Am I correct that what you are saying is, it isn't people WHO COME TO BELIEVE having seen the 'pre trib rapture' of the church at all, having previously rejected the ways of God and belief in Christ for the ways of the world,

YOUR personal belief is the 'trib saints' are PEOPLE IN ISRAEL, not 'Christians' at all but Jews?  I must admit, that is a completely new thing I have never heard before.  I don't suppose there is any Scripture that would tell us this? 

 

Believe it or not,there are actually christians in Israel.Not many,but there are some.When you read about the persecution of the saints during the end times,you are reading about those saints.

The verses I quoted are about those saints

The persecution Jesus talks about in the gospels is talking about those saints.

You read about the christians in Israel being persecuted in Israel and you think it's about the whole world when it is not.

 

Daniel 11:33-35

“Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.

During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.

And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

These saints who are persecuted in these verses are all in Israel.They are not in any other country.So while christians in the rest of the world argue about what is going to take place,these christians in these verses will be put to death.While these saints are being beaten in the synagogues in Israel,christians in America will be complaining about the price of eggs.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

@DeighAnn is saying the contradiction is in the pretrib ideology; unless I misunderstood. 

If all the believers are gone, how do others in the trib become believers with no preaching and teaching? 

So she's saying there must be some belief in those that go into the trib or it's less likely they will turn to Christ in the trib, with no one left to guide them. 

But then that can't be or they would have been taken pretrib. 

I have argued similarly but a little differently. 

 

 

 

You are absolutely correct; you did not misunderstand.   And Thank you.
 
Things like this tend to bring out the 'confusion' on the PTRD proponents and

since there is never any SCRIPTURE to bring forth to show anything one way or the other, all we get is just 'believe me when I tell you'.  

So those 'left behind' not only are 'rejecting' UNTIL THEY SEE with their own eyes,

it also means GODS ELECT will NEVER be able to have COME IN FAITH at all.... having required a sign


1 Corinth
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

BUT THAT
would create the problem of these Christians who would have had to have been 'left behind'
 

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Your argument hinges on there being no Bibles or historical records, or persecution of dissidents in the Tribulation.

David Jeremiah does a narration on how 144,000 Jewish men convert to worshipping Christ in the Tribulation, obviously refusing the Mark of the Beast.

This explains the Tribulation Martyrs and Overcomers. See Rev 14:13, 15:2, 20:4.

EXCEPT THE BOOK OF REV ISN'T WRITTEN TO JEWISH but TO AND FOR CHRISTIANS, and so Jewish aren't given 10 day trials.  




With all Christians gone, the LEFT BEHIND have 3 1/2 years

ON AN EARTH COMPLETELY OVERWHELMED and in total chaos with

ALL Christians having disappeared...

that means all the jobs they held now have NO ONE DOING THOSE JOBS.  And can you IMAGINE the run people will be having on all the possessions they left behind?  

You speak as if it EVERYTHING will be just like it is today.  But that CAN'T BE even close to the reality that would come of that sort of devastation. 

HOW many people would have been COOKING?  All those houses catch on fire.  How many CAR ACCIDENTS take place in a second?  What about all the bodies of those killed by those vehicles?  What about clearing all the highways?  How many ships run a ground?  Planes crash to the earth.  Trains go flying off the rails? Buses crash. People in surgeries left abandoned.  Animals starved to death.  Babies left alone.  Children and teens left to fend for themselves ALL THE WHILE those who KNOW NOTHING have 3 1/2 years before the image they can't worship is set up....

the LOGISTICS are a NIGHTMARE of biblical proportions and IT SETS UP AN IMPOSSIBLE SCENARIO...

all of which NOTHING IS WRITTEN. Nothing in the way of what will happen, what it will be like, what to do, how to do it, NO INSTRUCTIONS TO ANYONE ON ANYTHING, just go your own way for THE ALTIME BIGGEST MIRACLE GOD WOULD HAVE EVER PERFORMED.  NOTHING but 'kept from the hour'. That's it.  That's Gods entire input.  An entire book on the EXODUS, not a word on the RAPTURE.  

What is a delusion? 

I understand how much all this must be hated, but these are the facts, the TRUTH.  Kept from the hour DOESN'T COVER anything like this, not by a long shot.  

It would take YEARS just to get the economy up and running again.  Some countries would LOSE most of THEIR PEOPLE.  WHY won't any pre tribs discuss these things?  

So we are left with
Another
1. Return/coming/descending
2. Return to heaven/ascending
3. Dead resurrecting
4. Alive and remain changed
5. Enduring to the end
6. Church/trib saints


All for a WEDDING that doesn't take place until the NHNE which is AFTER the Lords Day and the GWTJ.  

What words have been made up to explain what isn't written
1. Bride of Christ
2. Gentile Church
3. Church AGE
4. Pre Trib Rapture
5.


What is made void? 
1. what it takes to be worthy of that kingdom 
2. enduring to the end
3. what has been brought together
4. lost sheep of Israel being Christians
5. not fear death of the flesh
6. Jacobs trouble/Abrahams seed

1. "And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." Luke 9:23 KJV

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:38 KJV

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27 KJV

"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:8 KJV

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." Colossians 1:20 KJV

"Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him." Mark 15:32 KJV

 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You read about the christians in Israel being persecuted in Israel and you think it's about the whole world when it is not.

Except for what I know about Israel. AND I know the last week is about the whole world or else the Gospel wouldn't have to go out to the whole world and the whole world wouldn't be deceived.  And if the Christians are in Israel or not, the PTRD says they WON'T BE HERE.  

That is one of the problems.  

[1to3]

Are GODS ELECT truly those REJECTING Him today?

Those rejecting Christ Jesus today are those who don't truly love Him.

If they truly loved Him, they would seek Him and His Word daily and keep His commandments and be obedient to His Word.

John 14:15- Christ Jesus said:

“If you love me, you will obey my commandments. I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, who will stay with you forever

 

------------------------------------------------------

The New covenant is that Christ Jesus came to fulfill the LAW.

Matthew 5:17- Christ Jesus said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The two commandments that Christ Jesus gave, Christ Jesus also stated encompass the 10 commandments

Matthew 22:36-40

³⁶ Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

³⁷ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

³⁸ This is the first and great commandment.

³⁹ And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

⁴⁰ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.