Is Jesus Christ a Man or God.

[apothanein kerdos]

apothanein kerdos, you said the word "prototokos" is used to convey "supeirority and not His order in creation." What about these two scriptues? The same Greek word is used to depict a firstborn son.

Genesis 49:3 Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.

Deuteronomy 21:17But he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn.

Really? The same GREEK word is used in these HEBREW scriptures?!?!?! That's a first for me!

If you are refering to Greek, it still doesn't matter. You would be quoting from the Septuagint which is known for inaccuracy in translating the Hebrew into Greek.

...when you were talking about Col 1:15,16 you said

QUOTE

Actually, this passage means that Jesus brought all things into existence and sustains them in their existence. If Jesus is truly created then He cannot sustain Himself.

I don't understand what you mean here by "sustain himself"....immortality? I don't understanding your point here.....this scripture doesn't say Jesus sustains anything? Created things have to sustain themselves?

The passage says that Jesus brought all matter into existance and allows it to continue. This would mean that He allows Himself to continue, He sustains Himself. That's very self-explainatory and you're stalling for time.

When referring to Proverbs ch 8 you said,

QUOTE

this is an example of personification. This is what is occuring within Proverbs, the personification of Wisdom.

I do agree it's an example of personificaion, my original reply stated that I believe Jesus is wisdom personified.

I don't care what you agree with. The grammatical structure into a personification is irrefutable. Unless you want to prove to me that the grammatical structure is to be taken literal when it's obviously not (read the Hebrew).

What kind of logic is that? If a scriprure is talking about actual sheep(baa baa), later on in the book the word 'sheep' cannot mean anything else? lol

Again, it goes back to linguistic structure of Proverbs. If, within the book of Proverbs, wisdom is used to describe Christ, wisdom elsewhere in proverbs must be used. That is simply how the linguistic structure works.

That's because in Hebrew, the word for wisdom is always in the feminine gender. At 1 John 4:8 where it says "God is love", the word used for love is in the feminine gender, does that mean God is a woman?

When God takes on an attribute it is always used in the masculine or, in the case of Greek, neutered. Likewise, 1 John 4:8, it's neutered, not feminine. The ending article can refer to both but because the primary subject (theos, God) is masculine, this ends up being neutered.

When you are speaking of Rev 3:14 you said,

QUOTE

This is a loose translation and interpretation on your part. The Greek word here (arche), when used in context, is refering to a magistrate, that is, ruler of Creation. It does not nessecitate that Jesus is the beginning, in that He is the first created, but instead that He is the Head of creation.

Please show another time that John used the word 'ar-khe' to mean what you say here and not something that had a beginning.

Why? This makes absolutely no sense (your request). It fits within the Greek structure...why do I need to prove it occured before hand? Again, you're stalling for time because, out of ignorance of the Greek language, you're trying to find a contradictory meaning.

Wow, am I the only one here who doesn't believe that Jesus isn't God?

How does it feel to be the sole heretic in a thread? I can't believe you're an actual Arian.

I'll try to respond to some more as soon as I can, but I have a busy weekend and might not post again until Monday or Tuesday.

Don't rush, you're in over your head.

[Guest jrh]

you're stalling for time...I don't care what you agree with...Again, you're stalling for time because, out of ignorance of the Greek language, you're trying to find a contradictory meaning...How does it feel to be the sole heretic in a thread? I can't believe you're an actual Arian...Don't rush, you're in over your head.

What's your problem, man?

I'm done responding to you.

[apothanein kerdos]

you're stalling for time...I don't care what you agree with...Again, you're stalling for time because, out of ignorance of the Greek language, you're trying to find a contradictory meaning...How does it feel to be the sole heretic in a thread? I can't believe you're an actual Arian...Don't rush, you're in over your head.

What's your problem, man?

I'm done responding to you.

My problem is you're holding to a belief that has supposedly been dead for thirteen hundred years. It is a belief that almost destroyed early Christianity and something the disciples and later church fathers fought desperately against (even more so than paganism). I am merely pointing out the facts. You were stalling for time (as you had time to read my entire post and make a subsequent post to it...but not enough time to adequately respond to the Greek used). I don't care what you agree with when the facts stand as a contradiction to your beliefs. You are a heretic (by definition) because you hold to the Arian beliefs. And you are in over your head. I referenced the facts of the situation. I encourage you to stay and debate it out because you might actually gain some truth via the discourse.

[EricH]

Wow, am I the only one here who doesn't believe that Jesus isn't God? Anyone else out there? I'll try to respond to some more as soon as I can, but I have a busy weekend and might not post again until Monday or Tuesday.

Talk to you soon!

No. I think you are the only one who has posted in this thread that does not believe Jesus is God. You believe He is a created being

[EricH]

apothanein kerdos, you said the word "prototokos" is used to convey "supeirority and not His order in creation." What about these two scriptues? The same Greek word is used to depict a firstborn son.

Genesis 49:3 Reuben, you are my firstborn; My might and the beginning of my strength, Preeminent in dignity and preeminent in power.

Deuteronomy 21:17But he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the beginning of his strength; to him belongs the right of the firstborn.

Actually the word is used here because it is not only referring to Reuben's being born first, it is referring to his preeminnece. Look at the second portion of Genesis 49:3 Reuben is prototokos because he is preeminent in power and in dignity

The same can be said for Dueteronomy 21:17. Prototokos is used because the first born is the beginning of the father's strength, thus he shall receive adouble portion. You are ignoring the complete context of the passages.

[Brother Chad]

hi everyone lets disscuss on this topic

IS JESUS CHRIST A MAN---------- THE IMPECABILITY OF JESUS CHRIST ?DISSCUSS

What do you believe? Is Jesus God or JUST a man?

Jesus was both fully-man and fully-God.

[MK202002]

I think God is 100% God and 100% man. He is in heaven now with a reserected human body, while still being everywhere at the same time. Yea!

James chapter 1- God cannot be tempted by evil nor does he tempt any man.....

Mathew 4 -Jesus was tempted in the destert

So he is both completely God and man.

[Unico]

So what, if our Lord Jesus Christ is a man? That's what He truly is.

Jesus (the Son) as God? Well, I believe more in Christ when He said the Father is the ONLY true God.

[apothanein kerdos]

So what, if our Lord Jesus Christ is a man? That's what He truly is.

Jesus (the Son) as God? Well, I believe more in Christ when He said the Father is the ONLY true God.

If Jesus was "just a man" then He would have had a sin nature....He would have been nothing more than one human dying for all humans. This would have held absolutely no significance...for it would have been one impure person dying for another impure person. Jesus IS God.

[Unico]

Jesus is a man. That's what the Bible says.

Yes, He never sinned but that doesn't make Him God Himself.

He never sinned, but He prayed to God.

He never sinned, but tempted by devil.

He never sinned, but He died.

He never sinned, but He is still a man.

For me, and for Jesus, there is ONLY one true God - the Father.

Peace.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Unico