The Revelation of the Latter Days: The New Jerusalem and The Rapture before the end of year 2028

[seeking the lost]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, seeking the lost.

Actually, that's NOT a good idea! This is too late in the narrative. The sun, moon, and stars event is found in Revelation 6, associated with the breaking of the sixth seal.  This is consistent with Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-28:

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 (KJV)

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

However, I believe that there is ample information to conclude that the resurrection occurs just prior to that in the opening of the fifth seal:

Revelation 6:9-17 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The words translated as "the souls" in verse 9 is "tas psuchas," and the basic word "psuchee" is defined as this:

5590 psuchee (psuché, psyxē) ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ (psoo-khay'). From psuchoo (psucho); breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay):
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psuchoo (psuchó, psýxō) ψύχω (psoo'-kho). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneoo (pneo), which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aeer (aer), which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively):
-- wax cold.

And, as said above, these words "exactly correspond respectively" to ...

5315 nefesh (nephesh) נֶפֶשׁ (neh'-fesh). From naafash (naphash); properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naphash) נָפַשׁ (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

If psuchee "exactly corresponds to" nefesh, then psuchee is more that just a "breath"; it, too, means "a breathing creature."

Thus, a "soul" is "a breathing creature." So, when we read the above verses, we should understand the fifth seal like this:

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)

9 And when he had opened THE FIFTH SEAL, I saw under the altar the breathing creatures of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This implies that this is NOT "a scene from heaven" but is rather a scene upon the earth directly after the resurrection! They are ALIVE AGAIN and TALKING!

No.  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  This is not movable.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

No.  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  This is not movable.

This entry into this First Resurrection is only for those listed; Not worshiped the Beast, nor his image, nor received the MOB on forehead or hand.  These are yet future, none have been instituted as yet. N.T Believers who have died, Present N.T. Believers still alive do not fit this scenario. So we cannot be included in this entry into the resurrection for the Just.

 The First Resurrection is a resurrection for the Just.  Those Just of Old Israel receive this entry after the conclusion of the 70th Week.  Dan 12:13.  They are raised up to receive their inheritance in the Land.  Those who did not worship the beast or image and did not receive the MOB are raise up to reign with Christ 1000 years.  Then there are all who did not follow Satan at the conclusion of the 1000 years, which were not consumed by fire.  When is their resurrection into the Just or First Resurrection? There may be 5 or more entries into the First (Just) Resurrection.

There are only two types of resurrections; One for the Just; the second for the unjust which is the second Death and which leads to the LOF. 

When do Adam and the rest of the Pre Flood Saints get resurrected. When do Noah and all the Post Flood Saints, not of Israel get resurrected.  When do those of Paradise and those of the bosom of Abraham get resurrected. When do those who survived the attack on Jerusalem at the end of the 70th week, who become Just get resurrected; and when do their offspring have a chance to get resurrected (those who did not follow Satan).

Just some things to think about.

In Christ

Montana Marv

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Then Water Baptism is only a symbol of death and burial.  One stays in the water never to come out of it.  Ones head never comes out from below the water. We suffocate.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

As the White Rabbit said in Alice and Wonderland, "Don't let us be silly!"

It IS a symbol of the death, burial and the resurrection OF OUR LORD! We are baptised WITH HIM! We declare our dedication to HIM! There's no efficacy in the water baptism itself! It is NOT a part of our "salvation." It is SYMBOLIC of our identification with HIM! That's why many families recognize the baptism as a declaration of a change in faith, and some families will DISOWN a person who has so identified!

11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The Resurrection is for the Dead, not the Living.  We have been Crucified with Christ; we have been Buried in his Baptism, (steps one and two of the symbol of water baptism); Since we have come up out of the Water, we have arose; and all these in Christ Jesus.  Christ later ascended on High.  We have not ascended yet.  The Rapture is a description of the Brides ascension, not a resurrection.  (Both Dead in Christ and those Alive in Christ go up)

Therefore the Resurrection is later.  Who gets resurrected when is what is the issue.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Okay, let's get the timing right: I'm sure you've seen these verses multiple times before, but sometimes, one might get slack in the quotation, so let's review:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede) them which are asleep. 16 For ...
1) the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and
2) the dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection): 17
4) Then we which are alive and remain (the living) shall be caught up (raptured) together with them
in the clouds, to
5) meet the Lord in the air: and
6) so shall we ever be with the Lord. 

And, this must be supplemented by the Resurrection Chapter:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;  
We shall not all sleep (die), but
we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

1) for the trumpet shall sound, and
2) the dead shall be raised incorruptible (resurrection), and
3) we (the living) shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

ALL of those who belong to the Messiah must be transformed, becoming immortal and incorruptible bodies. This will happen to those who are dead first, then those of us who are still alive must be transformed, as well.

When all have been resurrected/transformed, THEN we are raptured or seized, snatched away into the skies to meet the Lord in the air, and then "we are always with the Lord."

This much is FUNDAMENTAL to our "blessed hope!"

NOTICE, however, that NEITHER passage says we "go to heaven!" We will be "in the clouds" and "in the air," but no higher!

On the other hand, IF one is willing to understand that "heaven," the word often used to translate the Greek word "ouranos" which actually means the "sky," also means the "sky," then, in a sense, we HAVE "gone to heaven (to the sky)," when we are "in the clouds" and "in the air."

I think of the Rapture as more of a "mass transit transportation system." As Philo said to Clyde the Orangutan in the movie "Every Which Way But Loose," "Right turn, Clyde!" Instead of going to some nebulous "abode of God," which really doesn't exist since God is OMNIPRESENT, we are going to "take a right turn" with the Messiah to His HOMELAND! His rightful rule is because He is the Son of David, David's heir and God's Anointed to be King! And, since His reign is eternal, He doesn't reign for a lifetime or even for a thousand years. He reigns FOREVER! And, this was foretold by Gabriel to Mary before He was even conceived! Thus, He is not just AN Anointed One; He is THE Anointed One -THE Messiah - THE Christ!

There are Scriptures that suggest that His people, the nation of Israel, will be in danger of genocide, which God WON'T allow, and sends His Messiah to free His people. I believe that we will comprise part of His army, and will be coming with Him to rescue His people.

Yeeshuwa` said He would send His messengers to gather His elect from the four compass directions of the earth, from the highest point in the sky to the lowest point in the delved earth. And, when He arrives, the Scriptures say that He comes WITH His Saints! His Holy Ones!

[seeking the lost]

8 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

This entry into this First Resurrection is only for those listed; Not worshiped the Beast, nor his image, nor received the MOB on forehead or hand.  These are yet future, none have been instituted as yet. N.T Believers who have died, Present N.T. Believers still alive do not fit this scenario. So we cannot be included in this entry into the resurrection for the Just.

 The First Resurrection is a resurrection for the Just.  Those Just of Old Israel receive this entry after the conclusion of the 70th Week.  Dan 12:13.  They are raised up to receive their inheritance in the Land.  Those who did not worship the beast or image and did not receive the MOB are raise up to reign with Christ 1000 years.  Then there are all who did not follow Satan at the conclusion of the 1000 years, which were not consumed by fire.  When is their resurrection into the Just or First Resurrection? There may be 5 or more entries into the First (Just) Resurrection.

There are only two types of resurrections; One for the Just; the second for the unjust which is the second Death and which leads to the LOF. 

When do Adam and the rest of the Pre Flood Saints get resurrected. When do Noah and all the Post Flood Saints, not of Israel get resurrected.  When do those of Paradise and those of the bosom of Abraham get resurrected. When do those who survived the attack on Jerusalem at the end of the 70th week, who become Just get resurrected; and when do their offspring have a chance to get resurrected (those who did not follow Satan).

Just some things to think about.

In Christ

Montana Marv

In Christ

Montana Marv

The scripture is very clear.  There is a tendency to add to the text to make it say other things.  The first resurrection is only of the martyrs, all others are excluded from this resurrection.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years includes everyone not included in the first resurrection.  Just let the text define the content of each and do not add to the description.

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[The Light]

16 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

No.  The first resurrection is clearly at the end of the tribulation.  Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  This is not movable.

The rapture of the Church will occur BEFORE the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5.

The Lord is at the door right now and it seems you are not aware.

[kenny2212]

"Trust me, it's not at the door. You'll be shocked".

[seeking the lost]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

The rapture of the Church will occur BEFORE the seals are opened. See Rev 4 and 5.

The Lord is at the door right now and it seems you are not aware.

You have said that the rapture is before the seals are opened.  The problem with that is that there is no resurrection there.  Do you feel comfortable adding one there?

There are consequences for adding to the book.

[truth7t7]

11 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

The scripture is very clear.  There is a tendency to add to the text to make it say other things.  The first resurrection is only of the martyrs, all others are excluded from this resurrection.  The resurrection at the end of the thousand years includes everyone not included in the first resurrection.  Just let the text define the content of each and do not add to the description.

Rev. 20: 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life

2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Edited June 12, 2023 by truth7t7

[The Light]

4 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

You have said that the rapture is before the seals are opened.  The problem with that is that there is no resurrection there.  Do you feel comfortable adding one there?

There are consequences for adding to the book.

Revelation 3 tells us that He will open a door that no man can shut and no man can open. It also tells us that He comes quickly and let no man take your crown.

Revelation 4 tells us that a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We see that the trump of God or voice of God has said come up hither. Then we see 24 elders in heaven with crowns. That means Jesus has come. Then we see kings in priests in heaven which is the Church in heaven.

We also know by the Word of God that the dead will rise before the living so obviously there has been a resurrection.

There is a huge difference between adding to the Book and understanding what the Book says.

There will be a rapture before the seals are opened. When the seals are opened, the final week has begun.

[seeking the lost]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

There are (Two) resurrections on the (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

Yes, there are two resurrections.  They are clearly described in the twentieth chapter of Revelation.  The first is only of those who were killed during the tribulation.  The second, last day resurrection is at the end of the thousand years.  That day is the last day.  This day is described in 2 Peter 3: 

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The last day is the day after which there are no other days.  Peter describes that day.  That is the day of resurrection for the ones who believe.  The unrighteous are also raised on that day.  Revelation 20 identifies the participants of the last day as the rest of the dead.  Matthew 25 gives a very clear understanding of the judgment of that day.  The righteous and the unrighteous stand for judgment.  At that time the sheep and the goats are separated.  Both sheep and goats are raised on the last day at the end of the thousand years.

Matt. 25: 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.