How To Read The 2 Creation Accounts

[FJK]

9 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

From the OP, what day do you think it was created?

If I knew I wouldn't have asked, maybe they predated the creation and God is subject to them.

Your thoughts?

[ChristB4us]

16 hours ago, FJK said:

If I knew I wouldn't have asked, maybe they predated the creation and God is subject to them.

Your thoughts?

I believe the laws of physics does not limit God for why I believe He had created them instead.

[dad2]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:05 AM, teddyv said:

There is a thread on this very verse in General section.

Paul's not talking about modern science (how could he), but most likely, the growing threat of Gnosticism.

 Anything that is the wisdom of man would be included and never so much as in the latter times.

[dad2]

On 6/8/2023 at 6:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

When you read the two different stories of the Creation account, it is ...

 

There are no two accounts. By chapter 2 it was already done and over and it recounts and fleshes out some details of what was already created.

[ChristB4us]

11 minutes ago, dad2 said:

There are no two accounts. By chapter 2 it was already done and over and it recounts and fleshes out some details of what was already created.

Right.  The second account is just rehashing the 6th day of creation in detail for how the generations of mankind that came about.

[Retrobyter]

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

When you read the two different stories of the Creation account, it is a known fact that the original scriptures were not divided into numbered chapters and numbered verses.  So when you read the first creation account, you should read it from Genesis 1:1 to Genesis 2:3 for the complete account.  Here is why.

Genesis 1:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The first verse is the topic and the following verses to the end of Genesis 2:3 is how God did that in verse 1.  Notice how Genesis 2:1 ends it by the word "Thus" for the conclusion of that topic in Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So fathom that for a moment, hoping in the Lord for wisdom to see the truth in His words.

Shalom, ChristB4us.

You're right to this point. In Hebrew, the subsequent sentences all begin with the vav connective prefix, ו, usually translated as "and." At the end of a topic, one will find the Pey symbol, פ, pronounced "pay." One will find this symbol at the end of 2:3. Hebrew literature begins with a general statement and then the text expands upon the details for that statement. The same is true for subsequent points. Therefore, the details of Day 6 are described in chapter 2, from verse 4 to the end of chapter 3, where one will find another Pey symbol at the end of 3:21. "Thus" is just a translation word chosen for the vav connective in verse 2:1; it could just as easily have been rendered "and."

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

The very first day of creation was the establishment of time by that creation of light for that first day as there was evening and morning that first day.  So what was created that first day was that first day by that light; hence time was created.

Yes. The first time there was movement in the universe, time began, for time is the distance covered by an object divided by the rate of speed of that object. If anything can move, time still exists. It's wrong to think that time will no longer exist in the future with God. That's just nonsense. The ones who claim this take it from Revelation 10:6. Here it is in context:

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So, the secret ("mystery") of God should be finished right away when the seventh messenger blows his trumpet. This messenger is saying that there will no longer be any DELAY! It is often rendered as "delay" in other versions. For example,

Revelation 10:5-7 (NIV)

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

He is NOT saying that "time would cease to exist."

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") became such when the WORD of God, who WAS God, "BECAME FLESH." He will ALWAYS be His body from now on! That's how He was resurrected, He was still His body when He came out of the grave, and He demonstrated this by eating some food and allowing His disciples to handle Him. (Luke 24). A physical body needs a physical reality in which to move, and if it still moves (and it does because He is promised to RETURN), then time will still exist!

 

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

The second day of creation was the establishment of gravity and the beginning of the creation of the earth because all that was there that first day was water.  On that second day, earth was starting to be formed by creating a water planet with the upper atmosphere.

If the "Wind of God" could move over the face of the waters on the first day, then there was already gravity. Gravity is not a "force"; it is a TRAIT of matter. All mass has a gravitational attraction. The fact that the waters were on the surface of the earth proves that gravity was already present, holding the water to the planet.

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

The third day was the completion of creating earth by having that one large land mass with all the sea in one place.  On that one large land mass was the creation of mature plant life and mature trees bearing seeds and fruits.

Then, why does God call the collection (singular) of the waters (plural), "Seas" ("Yammiym"), a PLURAL word?

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

Then the universe was created that fourth day for the purpose of shining her lights on the earth for the governing for signs, for seasons, for days, and for years.  That means not only the heavenly sources were created, but her lights were to be shining on that earth that fourth day. 

So can one discern the age of the universe and thus earth by that speed of light?  No.  Because the inverse [universe] did not exist until that fourth day for when God commanded her lights to shine on that earth that fourth day for signs, seasons, days and years.

The fifth day marine life and birds were created.

The sixth day, animals were created and then man was created to have dominion over all living things.

Then the first creation account ends at Genesis 2:3 when God rested the seventh day from those six days of creating the heavens and the earth.

No, the account continues, only the TOPIC - the MAIN POINTS - ended.

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

The second creation account is a rehashing of the event on the sixth day for when man was created which begins the topic of the generations of man in Genesis 2:4. We can know that by how verse 5 testifies that there was no man yet to till the ground for why God ordered a mist to water the earth.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

Rain did not happen until the global flood.  FYI

Right. The "second creation account," however, is just the expansion of the SAME account for Day 6. The man did not "till the ground" until after the Fall. He had plenty of fruits and vegetables - his diet - in the garden. He didn't NEED to "till the ground" until He was FORCED to leave the garden and forbidden to return.

On 6/8/2023 at 9:58 AM, ChristB4us said:

This is how we should read the two creation accounts so that in light of science, they do not take this into consideration when determining the age of the universe by that speed of light & thereby insinuating the age of the earth which is a faulty assumption for why the big bang theory and the evolution theory are a false science.  What do you get from building on a faulty assumption?  False knowledge & thus false science.

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

 

[ChristB4us]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, ChristB4us.

You're right to this point. In Hebrew, the subsequent sentences all begin with the vav connective prefix, ו, usually translated as "and." At the end of a topic, one will find the Pey symbol, פ, pronounced "pay." One will find this symbol at the end of 2:3. Hebrew literature begins with a general statement and then the text expands upon the details for that statement. The same is true for subsequent points. Therefore, the details of Day 6 are described in chapter 2, from verse 4 to the end of chapter 3, where one will find another Pey symbol at the end of 3:21. "Thus" is just a translation word chosen for the vav connective in verse 2:1; it could just as easily have been rendered "and."

Yes. The first time there was movement in the universe, time began, for time is the distance covered by an object divided by the rate of speed of that object. If anything can move, time still exists. It's wrong to think that time will no longer exist in the future with God. That's just nonsense. The ones who claim this take it from Revelation 10:6. Here it is in context:

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV)

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So, the secret ("mystery") of God should be finished right away when the seventh messenger blows his trumpet. This messenger is saying that there will no longer be any DELAY! It is often rendered as "delay" in other versions. For example,

Revelation 10:5-7 (NIV)

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

He is NOT saying that "time would cease to exist."

Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") became such when the WORD of God, who WAS God, "BECAME FLESH." He will ALWAYS be His body from now on! That's how He was resurrected, He was still His body when He came out of the grave, and He demonstrated this by eating some food and allowing His disciples to handle Him. (Luke 24). A physical body needs a physical reality in which to move, and if it still moves (and it does because He is promised to RETURN), then time will still exist!

I agree.

Quote

If the "Wind of God" could move over the face of the waters on the first day, then there was already gravity. Gravity is not a "force"; it is a TRAIT of matter. All mass has a gravitational attraction. The fact that the waters were on the surface of the earth proves that gravity was already present, holding the water to the planet.

I see that as the Spirit of God for why He is moving over the face of the water.  Gravity is not required for Him to do that.

Quote

Then, why does God call the collection (singular) of the waters (plural), "Seas" ("Yammiym"), a PLURAL word?

At the time of this writing through Moses, God is explaining how all the waters and the seas were at one time in one place.  Trying to imagine Moses would have spoken up about that unless God was explaining how all the seas and waters was at one time in the very beginning, in one place.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Just a guess as we prophesy in part & know in part but one day when we see Him face to face, we will know all things.

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No, the account continues, only the TOPIC - the MAIN POINTS - ended.

Just referring to the first creation account before the second account that deals with the sixth day of creation but in more detail.

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Right. The "second creation account," however, is just the expansion of the SAME account for Day 6. 

I agree.

Quote

The man did not "till the ground" until after the Fall. He had plenty of fruits and vegetables - his diet - in the garden. He didn't NEED to "till the ground" until He was FORCED to leave the garden and forbidden to return.

Makes you wonder how soon Adam & Eve had fallen since they were commanded to multiply after they were created.  Must have been right away.  How many times parents complain about leaving their kids for one second and then "bam", chaos?

[RV_Wizard]

On 6/15/2023 at 4:27 PM, ChristB4us said:

Makes you wonder how soon Adam & Eve had fallen since they were commanded to multiply after they were created.  Must have been right away.  How many times parents complain about leaving their kids for one second and then "bam", chaos?

Childbirth was not mentioned to them until after the fall.  There is no indication that Eve would have become pregnant had original sin not happened.  However God, being omniscient, certainly knew what was going to happen.

[ChristB4us]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:55 PM, Retrobyter said:

If the "Wind of God" could move over the face of the waters on the first day, then there was already gravity. Gravity is not a "force"; it is a TRAIT of matter. All mass has a gravitational attraction. The fact that the waters were on the surface of the earth proves that gravity was already present, holding the water to the planet.

Then, why does God call the collection (singular) of the waters (plural), "Seas" ("Yammiym"), a PLURAL word?

I would say the Spirit of God moved over the waters to wit God is not limited by anything, including gravity since He sets up creation.

So on Day 2, when dividing the water, creating one firmament, the water planet, from the other firmament, the upper atmosphere or the first heaven, we see gravity being created here.  do note how God did not say "good" on the 2nd day?  That is because He was not done creating the earth that day until day 3.  He would not call it good when creating the earth when He was not done yet.

There is an error among Biblical scholars of the day as they apply the meaning of His words of tohuw & bohuw, the Hebrew words in Jeremiah 4:23 as if Genesis 1:2 means the same thing that the earth was a wasteland, but there was no earth that first day.

The Greek word "pneuma" does not always refer to the Holy Spirit.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

When one cannot apply all the definitions to spirit, then it is defined by how it is used in the context of the message given.

Tohuw is defined as from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:--confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

Bohuw is defined as from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:--emptiness, void.

When defining the terms in the context of creation, earth was non-existent that first day; became a water planet with an upper atmosphere on Day 2 and God finished creating the earth on Day 3 for why He said it was good.

So it is an error by those who apply the meaning of Jeremiah 4:23 to Genesis 1:2 since the context of the message is way different.

As for why the plural of seas, it is for the readers of His words that at one time, all the seas were in one place.  What else can you call all the waters that was in one place in the beginning of creation when land was established on day 3 and yet the seas are not all in one place as it is today?

@FJK  &  @tim_from_pa  &  @teddyv  &  @BeyondET &  @dad2

Edited October 16, 2023 by ChristB4us

[tim_from_pa]

The Hebrew for Genesis 1:2 is:

1:2  וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ וְחֹשֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵי תְהוֹם וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים מְרַחֶפֶת עַל־פְּנֵי הַמָּֽיִם׃

I can pick out what is formless and void by reading the Hebrew myself and I see it's: 

הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהו

Interestingly, I thought I'd just try a Google translation to see what today's Jewish person would call that phrase Tohu v Bohu and it's this:  "There was confusion and confusion"  I'm not saying this is a perfect translation, but as us gap theorists say, there is thought here that the Earth once existed and then some cataclysm happened.  The whole verse translated is similar that says: And the earth was confusion and confusion and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.

The tone is not that of something initially formless and then God continued working on it.  The tone is that the earth became a wreck and God recreated it (this time for Adam and all that's in this present world).  As many do, I think there's earth ages:  the prehistoric and pre-Adamic world with its life (Lucifer was over this world and is the angelic realm), then a recreation for Adam (interestingly we got the idea of "terra-forming" planets lately so this is the Lord's version and is far better.  Likewise, there will be a 3rd and final earth age. I won't elaborate how that's going to come about but that's the new heaven and earth. (I don't believe we were pre-existing souls e.g. angels or whatever in the first earth age as some believe)

I'm even seeing news to the effect of a Great Flood such as this (dated) article that shows even secular ideas that there was some sort of flood. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/evidence-for-a-flood-102813115/

However, most Christians then assume that this was Noah's flood when in fact, it was probably more likely the flood in Genesis 1:2. This divided the earth ages.