When are both the living and the dead in Christ raised?

[truth7t7]

1 hour ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

That’s the way it comes out from Bible gateway, it’s not intentional.

Possibly you can highlight and re-size, that's what I do?

[Stewardofthemystery]

38 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Possibly you can highlight and re-size, that's what I do?

I haven’t added any color or enlarged, or even used the highlight function in this forum, it just comes out that way from Bible gateway.

When I first started posting here I was pulling my studies from another site which had a black background, which is why my first threads had looked like they were all highlighted in black, but that was just the way they came out when I posted them.

I figured out how to remove the black background, but some posts still come out enlarged on their own if I don’t correct it.  Sorry if it offends anyone, but I am not doing it on purpose.

I am posting everything from my phone so it makes it a bit more difficult to post.

Sorry for any inconvenience.  Peace 

 

[The Light]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, Stewardofthemystery said:

I guess you do not understand the concept about something being “first” which is why I posted the word “clue” by the the word “first” fruits.

Something that is harvested “first” is called a first fruit.  If something is harvested last it is not called a “first fruit”because it was not “the first”to become ripe and the “first”to be harvested like those who were raised up with Jesus.

This is a perfect example. This TOTALLY proves you are in error when you claim that there is only ONE resurrection of the righteous. You keep saying that there is a FIRST RESURRECTION so there can't be one before the first.

And yet here we see that Jesus is the first fruits of the dead and the 144,000 are the first fruits of a harvest. Are you saying that Jesus is not first fruits? or are you saying that the 144,000 are not first fruits.

This totally proves that the FIRST RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the RIGHTEOUS. And therefore there can be more than one first resurrection just as there can be more than one first fruits.

On 6/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, Stewardofthemystery said:

Salvation, honor, and glory came to the Jew first, not the Gentiles.

Yes salvation was brought to the Jew first. And yet most rejected the chief cornerstone.

Luke 13

30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

On 6/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, Stewardofthemystery said:

Again if you notice, the words of God say these “firstfruits” that are seen in heaven with Christ have already been redeemed from the earth.

 

Of course they have been redeemed from the earth. That's what makes them first fruits. But these are first fruits of the second harvest of the fig tree. The fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other gods.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Many need to wake up fast. The Lord is getting ready to open the door that no man can close. The rapture of the first harvest is about to take place, and many are totally unaware. 

[Stewardofthemystery]

5 minutes ago, The Light said:

You keep saying that there is a FIRST RESURRECTION so there can't be one before the first.

And yet here we see that Jesus is the first fruits of the dead and the 144,000 are the first fruits of a harvest. Are you saying that Jesus is not first fruits? or are you saying that the 144,000 are not first fruits.

This totally proves that the FIRST RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the RIGHTEOUS. And therefore there can be more than one first resurrection just as there can be more than one first fruits.

Yes salvation was brought to the Jew first. And yet most rejected the chief cornerstone.

Luke 13

30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Of course they have been redeemed from the earth. That's what makes them first fruits. But these are first fruits of the second harvest of the fig tree. The fathers of the Jews were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served other gods.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Many need to wake up fast. The Lord is getting ready to open the door that no man can close. The rapture of the first harvest is about to take place, and many are totally unaware. 

What I said was what the scriptures call “the first resurrection” from the dead.

Revelation 20:5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

What the “first resurrection” from the dead means, is that they are “the first born” from the dead, “first to the Jew,” then to the Gentiles.

 

The “first fruits” of Israel that were raised right after Jesus was raised are the “first fruits” of the “first resurrection” being “the firstborn”from the dead.

 

Notice the mention of Christ being “the firstborn” from the dead, and also the mention of the Church of the “firstborn” from the dead who are already in heaven, being the spirits of men who are now made perfect.

 

Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, “the firstborn from the dead;” that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

Hebrews 12:23

To the general assembly and church of “the firstborn,”which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

 

So you have the Jews who are the “first fruits”of the “first born from the dead.”

 

And then you have the latter day Harvest of the Gentiles who are the “first born from the dead”from the Gentiles.
 

But both groups are of the “first resurrection”; both Jew and Gentiles being “the first born” from the dead, and both harvests belonging to the same Church of the “firstborn” from the dead.

 

 

[The Light]

6 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

What I said was what the scriptures call “the first resurrection” from the dead.

Revelation 20:5

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

What the “first resurrection” from the dead means, is that they are “the first born” from the dead, “first to the Jew,” then to the Gentiles.

 

The “first fruits” of Israel that were raised right after Jesus was raised are the “first fruits” of the “first resurrection” being “the firstborn”from the dead.

 

Notice the mention of Christ being “the firstborn” from the dead, and also the mention of the Church of the “firstborn” from the dead who are already in heaven, being the spirits of men who are now made perfect.

 

Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, “the firstborn from the dead;” that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

Hebrews 12:23

To the general assembly and church of “the firstborn,”which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

 

So you have the Jews who are the “first fruits”of the “first born from the dead.”

 

And then you have the latter day Harvest of the Gentiles who are the “first born from the dead”from the Gentiles.
 

But both groups are of the “first resurrection”; both Jew and Gentiles being “the first born” from the dead, and both harvests belonging to the same Church of the “firstborn” from the dead.

 

 

You are very confused. Read Romans 11 and see if that can't clear things up. The Jews rejected the chief corner stone so God takes the Word to the Gentiles.

Jesus came to the whole house of Israel but was rejected by most. This is basic stuff that should not be confusing.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

[Philologos]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:29 PM, George said:

In Hebraic thought, a day could also be a 1000 years as a 1000 years is a day in the presence of the Lord.  You could easily have a resurrection for those to life before the Millennial reign starts ... and then when the 1000-year reign is completed, a resurrection of those to death at the Great White Throne judgment and that could be as a day in the sight of God. 

Honestly, time is one of those things with the Lord that is different than our comprehension of it.   Since He's eternal, what are 1000 years in light of eternity? 

Be blessed,

George

Many theologians, preachers, & teachers have taught that; but, they derived that idea from the scripture where it says, ‘1 day to God is like a 1000 years,” and labeled it as the “Hebrew mindset.” Years later, we accept this as our proof in using it as an end times cipher, only because we’re told that from some theologian who made a huge assumption. 
Basically, that phrase is used to explain that while we might consider 1000 years to be a long time, God does not consider the passing of 1000 years to be any different than we would a day. It doesn’t mean we define 1000 years as a ‘day,’ or a day to mean 1000 years. It’s an encouragement to not become discouraged waiting for God, as Israel had.

Was the thief on the cross in Paradise that DAY, or did Jesus really mean, “Ya actually gotta wait like a thousand years.”

[Stewardofthemystery]

30 minutes ago, The Light said:

The Jews rejected the chief corner stone so God takes the Word to the Gentiles.

Jesus came to the whole house of Israel but was rejected by most. This is basic stuff that should not be confusing.

Romans 11

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You think all the Jews rejected God and His word before Jesus came?

What about Abraham who is the Father of the faith? Or Moses, or Samuel, or David, or Elijah, or Noah, or Job, or Daniel, or all the OT saints and prophets?  

Clearly you are one who is confused.

[Montana Marv]

20 minutes ago, Philologos said:

Many theologians, preachers, & teachers have taught that; but, they derived that idea from the scripture where it says, ‘1 day to God is like a 1000 years,” and labeled it as the “Hebrew mindset.” Years later, we accept this as our proof in using it as an end times cipher, only because we’re told that from some theologian who made a huge assumption. 
Basically, that phrase is used to explain that while we might consider 1000 years to be a long time, God does not consider the passing of 1000 years to be any different than we would a day. It doesn’t mean we define 1000 years as a ‘day,’ or a day to mean 1000 years. It’s an encouragement to not become discouraged waiting for God, as Israel had.

Was the thief on the cross in Paradise that DAY, or did Jesus really mean, “Ya actually gotta wait like a thousand years.”

There are two aspects to look at.  First is that All Creation is under a Time Line. For all will be destroyed and made new.  There is growth, there is decay.  Second; The Godhead is not under a Time Frame. 

The past 5000 years is but a blink of the eye to the Godhead.  The first N.T. Believer to enter the Kingdom of God will be just a blink of the eye when the last N.T. Believer enters.  For us it can be an eternity, when looking at past history, and the future to come.

The Thief was in Paradise at his death.  For that is where all the Just went before the Ascension of Christ.

In my grandfathers "day", it would take 40 "days" to walk across Montana, walking only during the "day".

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

[Philologos]

4 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

There are two aspects to look at.  First is that All Creation is under a Time Line. For all will be destroyed and made new.  There is growth, there is decay.  Second; The Godhead is not under a Time Frame. 

The past 5000 years is but a blink of the eye to the Godhead.  The first N.T. Believer to enter the Kingdom of God will be just a blink of the eye when the last N.T. Believer enters.  For us it can be an eternity, when looking at past history, and the future to come.

The Thief was in Paradise at his death.  For that is where all the Just went before the Ascension of Christ.

In my grandfathers "day", it would take 40 "days" to walk across Montana, walking only during the "day".

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

All I’m saying is that verse is not associated with the end times.

If time is as irrelevant as seen in the cited examples, why do we still change what the narrative of scripture in order for it to support something else we believe?

Let’s say the scripture directly tells us that whenever we read “1000 yrs,” it really does means 1 day, and vice-versa… And it also says you have to be sure to tell people about the 1000 yrs. But you know that 1000 yrs means 1 day, so, to aid others in understanding, you tell them about the “1 day.” 

Have you taught scripture as God intended for us to see it and learn it? Whether your interpretation is right or wrong, did you teach God’s Word or your interpretation?

If scripture says 1000 years, on what are we basing the interpretation of merely a ‘day?’ 
 

I actually used to believe that regardless of when we died, we’d all arrive simultaneously… I realized that was a “loose end” that tied up because I had other incorrect interpretations. I don’t deny that may be the way it happens, but it’s not a ‘doctrine’ in my quiver anymore. 

 

[Montana Marv]

52 minutes ago, Philologos said:

All I’m saying is that verse is not associated with the end times.

If time is as irrelevant as seen in the cited examples, why do we still change what the narrative of scripture in order for it to support something else we believe?

Let’s say the scripture directly tells us that whenever we read “1000 yrs,” it really does means 1 day, and vice-versa… And it also says you have to be sure to tell people about the 1000 yrs. But you know that 1000 yrs means 1 day, so, to aid others in understanding, you tell them about the “1 day.” 

Have you taught scripture as God intended for us to see it and learn it? Whether your interpretation is right or wrong, did you teach God’s Word or your interpretation?

If scripture says 1000 years, on what are we basing the interpretation of merely a ‘day?’ 
 

I actually used to believe that regardless of when we died, we’d all arrive simultaneously… I realized that was a “loose end” that tied up because I had other incorrect interpretations. I don’t deny that may be the way it happens, but it’s not a ‘doctrine’ in my quiver anymore. 

 

Correct. It is a generic statement of Scripture about the Godhead.

It is used too many times, mostly incorrect.  We have no idea about God's timing, whether one day, one week, one year, or a thousand years.  Yet because the Godhead is without time, 1000 years to us is but one day the God.

Yester-tomorrow.  Supposed you were going to be rewarded from God, you had to do a particular task for this reward. For some it may have taken 10 years, or 5 days.

On May 15th someone fulfilled this task for a reward.  They got their check on the 17th.  The issued date on the check was dated the 14th.  The Father is patiently waiting for us, yet knows ahead of time.  We should not push God's timing, yet be slack and sit on our hands,

In Christ

Montana Marv