God`s Purposes.

[AdHoc]

14 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi AdHoc,

Thank you for contributing to the discussion. Yes, you would need to give scriptures for your view. Now, we know that God is omniscient, all knowing and thus He planned and purposed not just cleaning up man`s oopses. Heleadethme mentioned the eternal purpose that God had.

1. The Nations - made by God amid man`s sin. 

`And He (God) has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and had determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.` (Acts 17: 26)

Quite a bit of planning their by God.

2. Israel - God knew they would be rebellious so He didn`t rely on them to fulfill His plan for them. God has promises to Israel that they would rule the world. (2 Sam. 7: 16,  Isa. 45: 4,   Ez. 17: 22,  Dan. 7: 27,  Joel 3: 2,   Zech.  14: 16 ff)

3. The Body of Christ - Yes, it is with the New Man, (B/C) ruling with Christ that brings about the restoration of all things, (in heaven and earth). 

To point 1. you remember that the nations only came at Babel. Not Eden. The Nations are a result of their plan to be united against God. So that confirms that the Nations are a result of the fall.

To point 2. you admit that Israel were not reliable. They are the only Nation to swap the true God for idols. They witnesses 330 prophecies fulfilled and still murdered the Man who went about helping and healing. If it weren't true it would blow the mind. So, Matthew 21:43 becomes their portion. Thy may not rule.

To point 3. In Matthew 24 and 25 three parables - (i) the unfaithful servant (Ch.24), (ii) the unwise Virgins, and (iii) the slothful - servant may not rule. Seems like even with the greatest salvation, the greatest revelation and the indwelling Spirit, man is incapable of fulfilling God's plan. How sobering for those of us who want to please Him.

I went through your list of verses:
2nd Sam 7:16. The rule is of Israel - not the world

Isaiah 45:4. God named Cyrus 100 years before he conquered Babylon. This was to make him amenable to let Israel go. Nothing about Israel's ruling.

Ezekiel 17:22 concerns Babylon taking Israel captive and the current Israelite king, who refused to obey God's instruction and who turned to Egypt for help instead of God. No Israelite dominion there.

Daniel.7:27  does speak of God's dominion over the whole earth. The "saints" must be defined. Are they Israel who have worshiped idols, caused their children to pass through fire, who ate their babies in the siege and been carried to Babylon for 70 years, or the Overcomers of the Church. Hint: Throughout Daniel Israel are not God's people. They are called "YOUR (Daniel's) people. Thus, the "saints" who rule for God must be the Church.

Joel 3:2 records God's intention to gather the armies of all nations for Armageddon. At this battle the Lord's army is made of the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.19) - the ones who had white robes, clean and bright.

Zechariah 14:16 has the surviving soldiers of Armageddon being obliged to go up and worship the General and King Who they thought to vanquish. It is true that Jerusalem will be Capital of the world and Christ's rule goes out from their. But the co-kings are Christians. Israel are the servants in this time. See Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1. The sub-kings are David and the 12 Apostles - Christians.

I think I have earned the right to say that my original statement holds. The three peoples of earth are the result of evil and only a REMNANT of the Church will actually rule the earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, AdHoc said:

To point 1. you remember that the nations only came at Babel. Not Eden. The Nations are a result of their plan to be united against God. So that confirms that the Nations are a result of the fall.

To point 2. you admit that Israel were not reliable. They are the only Nation to swap the true God for idols. They witnesses 330 prophecies fulfilled and still murdered the Man who went about helping and healing. If it weren't true it would blow the mind. So, Matthew 21:43 becomes their portion. Thy may not rule.

To point 3. In Matthew 24 and 25 three parables - (i) the unfaithful servant (Ch.24), (ii) the unwise Virgins, and (iii) the slothful - servant may not rule. Seems like even with the greatest salvation, the greatest revelation and the indwelling Spirit, man is incapable of fulfilling God's plan. How sobering for those of us who want to please Him.

I went through your list of verses:
2nd Sam 7:16. The rule is of Israel - not the world

Isaiah 45:4. God named Cyrus 100 years before he conquered Babylon. This was to make him amenable to let Israel go. Nothing about Israel's ruling.

Ezekiel 17:22 concerns Babylon taking Israel captive and the current Israelite king, who refused to obey God's instruction and who turned to Egypt for help instead of God. No Israelite dominion there.

Daniel.7:27  does speak of God's dominion over the whole earth. The "saints" must be defined. Are they Israel who have worshiped idols, caused their children to pass through fire, who ate their babies in the siege and been carried to Babylon for 70 years, or the Overcomers of the Church. Hint: Throughout Daniel Israel are not God's people. They are called "YOUR (Daniel's) people. Thus, the "saints" who rule for God must be the Church.

Joel 3:2 records God's intention to gather the armies of all nations for Armageddon. At this battle the Lord's army is made of the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.19) - the ones who had white robes, clean and bright.

Zechariah 14:16 has the surviving soldiers of Armageddon being obliged to go up and worship the General and King Who they thought to vanquish. It is true that Jerusalem will be Capital of the world and Christ's rule goes out from their. But the co-kings are Christians. Israel are the servants in this time. See Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1. The sub-kings are David and the 12 Apostles - Christians.

I think I have earned the right to say that my original statement holds. The three peoples of earth are the result of evil and only a REMNANT of the Church will actually rule the earth.

 

The nations - God told man to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. That is God`s plan. After the flood the sons and grandsons of Noah became the nations on the earth. (Gen. 10: 32, & Acts 17: 26) It is God who made the nations before the flood. It is only after man decided not to disperse and become a single group that God sent them out with different languages. God always factors in man`s disobedience. 

Israel - 2 Sam. 7: 16 leads to the Lord who is the Son of David and king of Israel and over the nations. (Rev. 11: 15)

Isa. 45: 4 `Israel my elect.` 

Ez. 17: 22 & 23 `I will take also one of the highest branches ....plant it on a high and prominent mountain. On the mountain top of Israel I will plant it...under it will dwell birds of every sort...` A picture of Israel being the prominent nation over the other nations.

Dan. 7: 27. it is Israel as there is NO mention of the B/C in the OT.

Joel 3: 2 Jesus says His angelic army comes with Him, so NO B/C at Armageddon. 

 `they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..`   (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.`  (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

Zech. 14: 16 The B/C is not there but with the Lord on His seat of Power and authority in the highest - Mount Zion. (Ps. 2: 6,  Heb. 12: 22,  Rev. 3: 21) 

TRUTH - God made the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ for His purposes that they all rule in different parts of His great kingdom under Christ.

 

[TheBlade]

All this was far better then I had and I learned allot .. so thank you for that. I don't know why other then all nations would be blessed because of Abraham and "All the nations you have made shall come and bow down before you, O Lord, and shall glorify your name". Yet this does not answer your question. I will ask Him but.. yeah I don't think I will hear back on this one haha

[Heleadethme]

On 6/20/2023 at 11:40 AM, AdHoc said:

To point 1. you remember that the nations only came at Babel. Not Eden. The Nations are a result of their plan to be united against God. So that confirms that the Nations are a result of the fall.

To point 2. you admit that Israel were not reliable. They are the only Nation to swap the true God for idols. They witnesses 330 prophecies fulfilled and still murdered the Man who went about helping and healing. If it weren't true it would blow the mind. So, Matthew 21:43 becomes their portion. Thy may not rule.

To point 3. In Matthew 24 and 25 three parables - (i) the unfaithful servant (Ch.24), (ii) the unwise Virgins, and (iii) the slothful - servant may not rule. Seems like even with the greatest salvation, the greatest revelation and the indwelling Spirit, man is incapable of fulfilling God's plan. How sobering for those of us who want to please Him.

I went through your list of verses:
2nd Sam 7:16. The rule is of Israel - not the world

Isaiah 45:4. God named Cyrus 100 years before he conquered Babylon. This was to make him amenable to let Israel go. Nothing about Israel's ruling.

Ezekiel 17:22 concerns Babylon taking Israel captive and the current Israelite king, who refused to obey God's instruction and who turned to Egypt for help instead of God. No Israelite dominion there.

Daniel.7:27  does speak of God's dominion over the whole earth. The "saints" must be defined. Are they Israel who have worshiped idols, caused their children to pass through fire, who ate their babies in the siege and been carried to Babylon for 70 years, or the Overcomers of the Church. Hint: Throughout Daniel Israel are not God's people. They are called "YOUR (Daniel's) people. Thus, the "saints" who rule for God must be the Church.

Joel 3:2 records God's intention to gather the armies of all nations for Armageddon. At this battle the Lord's army is made of the Overcomers of the Church (Rev.19) - the ones who had white robes, clean and bright.

Zechariah 14:16 has the surviving soldiers of Armageddon being obliged to go up and worship the General and King Who they thought to vanquish. It is true that Jerusalem will be Capital of the world and Christ's rule goes out from their. But the co-kings are Christians. Israel are the servants in this time. See Zachariah's prophecy in Luke 1. The sub-kings are David and the 12 Apostles - Christians.

I think I have earned the right to say that my original statement holds. The three peoples of earth are the result of evil and only a REMNANT of the Church will actually rule the earth.

 

Maybe you and Marilyn are both right about this.  Something I keep on a back burner is how Israel has always been a kind of example or living parable in the natural realm of spiritual realities to come.  There is a principle spoken of in the bible of "first the natural, then the spiritual."  What if Israel after the flesh will be the top dog kingdom in the world before the return of the true Messiah to wrap up this age?  Especially since we apparently are beginning to see the waning and implosion (judgment) of the current top dog kingdom (western society).  But the Israel of God (Jew&Gentile church) must be careful never to forget that we are in the world but not of it.  We are not to worship any messiah other than the One appointed and begotten of God.  And keep in mind that Israel after the flesh is loved for the sake of the patriarchs but will always be an enemy for the gospel's sake.