If you are picked up as a wise virgin you will not be seated under the Altar

[DeighAnn]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:27 PM, AdHoc said:

The Overcomers and Martyrs will be the first to escape the gates of Hades in resurrection.

That would make the 'never die' -  the DEAD that rise

[AdHoc]

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The ALTAR of Sacrifice in IN HADES?  WOW.   


Disembodied SOULS don't 'cry out' and don't 'need ROBES' and aren't in heaven.


1Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:


The TONGUE is glad
The HEART rejoice
The FLESH rests in hope NOW, and that would be because of the gift of Salvation, have no fear, believe in the Lord - never die.   No sorrow like the heathen, we follow Him at death of the flrst body, we follow Him when returning to the earth.


27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

BODIES LEFT IN HELL suffer corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

David, the king, DIED, HIS FLESH BODY was buried, IT STILL IS BURIED.  It is going back to dust.  It will never be raised up.  There is NO resurrection OF DEAD BODIES, the resurrection is of the dead souls in spiritual bodies, still mortal. 


30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

AGAIN, 'bodies' left in hell SEE CORRUPTION.  We have 2 bodies.  ALL 1st bodies go to hell.  2nd bodies go to EITHER heaven or hell.  The one who 'never dies' goes to heaven doesn't suffer corruption.  The one who does die 'goes to the grave' suffers corruption

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

David had to be ALIVE when 'he saith himself'

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Since that doesn't happen until AFTER the war in heaven at the very earliest, there can be no Pre Trib Rap
 

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

1The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

2Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?

3Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

6For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

IF THE VINE had been 'raptured' then how is HIS VINE LAID WASTE?  


8Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the LORD; the priests, the LORD'S ministers, mourn.
  
10The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

11Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.

NO 'WHEAT HARVEST' FOLLOWED BY A 'BARLEY' one.  LET THE WHEAT AND TARES grow together UNTIL THE END 
 

12The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

13Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

14Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,

15Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

 who ARE THESE ELDERS???
 

16Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, yea, joy and gladness from the house of our God?

17The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate, the barns are broken down; for the corn is withered.

18How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

19O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

20The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

 

15 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

That would make the 'never die' -  the DEAD that rise

Hi Sister, Hope you are well.

Listen, we have been through this before. You quoted my point that the saints under the altar are under the earth in Hades. But you never addressed it. If the altar of sacrifice must, by Law, be fixed to the ground, then what ever is under that altar is also under the ground - simple. But scripture does not leave us without more proof. It records that it is the SOULS that are under the altar. A SOUL can only be alone in death. Now, Revelation 20 says that John saw those "beheaded". And scripture goes on to say, "THEY LIVED". Why acknowledge their death and subsequent resurrection if they never died in the first place?

And to add to that, a denial of death when man's soul is separated from His Body, denies the death of Jesus. And if so, your sins are not forgiven, for the wages of sin is death and Jesus had to pay with the same money. But that is not all. Acts 2:27.34, which you quoted from, has David's SOUL left in Hades while that of Jesus is NOT. One SOUL is LEFT and One SOUL escapes - HADES. David's Body is in his tomb in Jerusalem as Peter points out. Jesus' Body is not in hell, but sitting on the Father's throne "above the highest heaven". And what's more it is the same body because on the night He was raised He showed them His wounds. A week later He made Thomas put his fingers in the wounds. And 2,000 years later in Matthew 21:30, John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 Israel will recognize Jesus as He burst through the clouds by His "PIERCINGS". What are the chances that our Lord Jesus has the same Body as was on the cross?

I propose that you drop the term "hell". It does not appear in the Bible. The right term is "perdition", and it is illustrated severally by "Gehenna", "The Lake of Fire" and the "Second Death". Hades, on the other hand is a PLACE of the souls of dead men. Abraham is there. His "fathers" are there (for he was "gathered to his fathers"). David is there. Jesus WAS there. By universal witness, with one exception (Jesus), dead bodies mould to the elements. Also, by local witness and the testimony of scripture, those raised by Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, Peter and Paul returned to their original bodies. The saints who were raised in Matthew 27 were recognized by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Listen to the inspired Word;

 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many (Mt 27:51–53)

Your theory needs to be reconsidered.

[DeighAnn]

23 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Listen, we have been through this before. You quoted my point that the saints under the altar are under the earth in Hades. But you never addressed it. If the altar of sacrifice must, by Law, be fixed to the ground, then what ever is under that altar is also under the ground - simple. But scripture does not leave us without more proof. It records that it is the SOULS that are under the altar. A SOUL can only be alone in death. Now, Revelation 20 says that John saw those "beheaded". And scripture goes on to say, "THEY LIVED". Why acknowledge their death and subsequent resurrection if they never died in the first place?

Don't fear death of the flesh body because that isn't the final death.  That is death to this realm.  Then we all go on living.  Some follow Him and go to the place of the living.  Some don't and go to the place of DEATH.  Those who ascend NEVER DIE because they will never face the 2nd death in the lake of fire.  

Those who go to the place of DEATH, the dead, DON'T DIE at that time EITHER.  

dont FEAR the death of the flesh body.  IT ISN'T DEATH.  IT IS A CHANGE of realms.  

Don't know why that is a concept that is hard to follow.  NOT ONE SOUL HAS EVER DIED.   NOT one soul will EVER DIE UNTIL the GWTJ.  

People can be DEAD while living in THIS BODY

People can be DEAD while living in the SPIRITUAL BODY

People can be LIVING while living in this body

People can be LIVING, while living in the SPIRITUAL BODY

Until you can FOLLOW what is DEAD and what isn't, it will never make sense.  I don't know how else to explain it.  It is so simple and basic I can't even believe we still have these conversations.  It's like a brick wall.  


THE NEVER DIE never die because THEY GO TO HEAVEN in their spiritual body.  

THE DEAD are THE DEAD because they go to HELL in their spiritual body and they are raised up FROM THE CORRUPTION still in their spiritual body YET still DEAD and still mortal ALTHOUGH their 2nd death won't come until the GWTJ when their names are not found in  the book of life.  


That's it.  That is all there is to it.  Those who NEVER DIE go on living with Christ in heaven and return with Him for the Lords day.  Come the end of the Lords Day, the GWTJ, THEY WATCH what happens to 

THE DEAD who were raised up when CHRIST RETURNED.   THE DEAD are those the PRIESTS of GOD (sitting on the thrones) try to TEACH GODS WORD to.  IF the DEAD do good WORKS through out the Lords Day and DON'T FOLLOW Satan when he is released a short season, THEN THEY RECEIVE THEIR ETERNAL LIFE. 


REMEMBER WHEN God was giving the plans to Moses?   WHAT IS on earth is a SHADOW of the things in heaven. 

WHAT is UNDER THE EARTH has nothing to do with heaven, it is of the CORRUPTION. 

GOD ISN'T THE GOD OF THE DEAD. 

GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING

Never die. 

WE ARE TO BUILD UPON the foundations laid, NOT DISSECT what has been put forth to put forth a NEW foundation.  

a living being  BODY AND BREATH.  A body without the spirit is a carcass.  Breath without a body is air.  NEITHER of them are a living being.  BUT PEOPLE WANT TO DISSECT what is written RATHER than take it precept on precept....and BECAUSE OF THAT, we find ourselves HERE.  

BEINGS THAT NEVER DIE don't go to the PLACE OF THE DEAD.  

beings that never die AREN'T RAISED UP WITH THE DEAD.  

The NEVER DIES FOLLOW HIM to be where He is  - HEAVEN

THE DEAD don't know the way - HELL

The NEVER DIES know the resurrection

THE DEAD DON'T


The NEVER DIES know the life

The DEAD know DEATH

The NEVER DIES RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION

THE DEAD didn't and go to DEATH to pay the penalty for sin

Its a super simple concept.  AND it's all written.  

JESUS SAID

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

PAUL REMINDED

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



 

JESUS SAID

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.





52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
 

THAT DEAD ISN'T "BODIES" as EVERYONE PUTS FORTH

ITS MORTAL, LIABLE TO DIE, the ADJECTIVE


 

ADJECTIVE - NOMINATIVE MASCULINE PLURAL

3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

SO as you can see THE SOULS THAT ARE RAISED UP WHEN CHRIST RETURNS ARE NOT 'IMMORTAL'.  They are also STILL subject to the 2nd death. 


There is a reason BOTH the just and unjust DEAD are raised FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD when Christ returns.  

False prophets, false teachings, AND those who NEVER HEARD GODS TRUTH, and so clearly NEVER CHOSE.   


Again, just saying what I always say.  Just making sure BOTH sides are heard.  



The 'resurrection' we STRIVE for is the NEVER DIE, FIRST RESURRECTION.  Doesn't matter WHEN that happens since it is every man in his own order, and then THE DEAD all at one time when Christ returns.  AGAIN, we need SOMEONE to be priests to, someone to rule with Christ over.   


TIME SHORTENED OR ELSE NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED BUT for the ELECTS SAKE the soon to be 'alive and remaining' time was shortened, and they are changed


LEAVING NO NATURAL FLESH BODIES past that point.   By the time the LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS RETURNS everyone will have either taken the mark of the beast or endured to the end

BEHOLD 'A MYSTERY'.....WE shall not ALL DIE....


BUT ALL WILL BE CHANGED.

Take the mark of the beast and it is DEATH for you - most assuredly A CHANGE

ENDURE to the end and it's 'changed in the twinkling of an eye' - most assuredly A CHANGE ALSO


AGAIN, ALL WILL BE CHANGED.   Pretty sure you won't 'see' this again, BUT a girl can hope and pray...And what a trip it is going to be when you do.  You will be able to go back are read how I have said this VERY thing over and over again.  


 

[DeighAnn]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:04 PM, AdHoc said:

And to add to that, a denial of death when man's soul is separated from His Body, denies the death of Jesus. And if so, your sins are not forgiven, for the wages of sin is death and Jesus had to pay with the same money. But that is not all. Acts 2:27.34, which you quoted from, has David's SOUL left in Hades while that of Jesus is NOT. One SOUL is LEFT and One SOUL escapes - HADES. David's Body is in his tomb in Jerusalem as Peter points out. Jesus' Body is not in hell, but sitting on the Father's throne "above the highest heaven". And what's more it is the same body because on the night He was raised He showed them His wounds. A week later He made Thomas put his fingers in the wounds. And 2,000 years later in Matthew 21:30, John 19:37 and Revelation 1:7 Israel will recognize Jesus as He burst through the clouds by His "PIERCINGS". What are the chances that our Lord Jesus has the same Body as was on the cross?

Jesus died DIFFERENT than we do.  HE DID go to the place of the dead, WE DON'T.  He rose from the place of the dead/hell, WE RISE from this flesh bodies death, not HELL.  HE went to pay the penalty/the ransom so we don't have to.  He went to REDEEM those who were 'sleeping' under the law.  He brought in the new covenant, NONE of those things do we do,

HE DID THAT FOR US AKA


THE GIFT OF SALVATION.  Under Grace.  New Covenant.  Death isn't a SEPARATION of body and soul is a separation of the natural flesh body from the SPIRITUAL body and soul, but 'the BEING' lives on.

RICH man was buried.  Angels came to get Lazarus...then they talked, could see, hear, felt things, reasoned....
AKA same person just in another body in another realm, Heaven or hell.  

Christ's FATHER IS GOD, our father is made of the dust of the earth.  WE are not the same, still we don't 'suffer' corruption because we don't go to hell.  


I don't DENY the DEATH of Jesus I acknowledge all the work He did so I could be SET FREE from the bonds of death, from paying the PENALTY of sin under the law.  SO, I know THE WAY to FOLLOW HIM to go be WHERE HE IS in the place HE went to prepare for me.  This first body dies, I DO NOT.  I will never die because I FOLLOW HIM, I am of the FIRST RESURRECTION.  


PLEASE POINT OUT DAVIDS SOUL HERE

Acts 2:27 for not You will abandon the soul of me into Hades, nor will You allow the Holy One of You to see decay

28 You have made known to me paths of life, You will fill me with joy in the presence of You

29 Men, brothers, it is permitted to speak with freedom to you concerning the patriarch David that both he died and was buried, and the tomb of him is among us unto the day this.

5053. teleutaó ►
Strong's Concordance
teleutaó: to complete, to come to an end, hence to die
Original Word: τελευτάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleutaó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-yoo-tah'-o)
Definition: to complete, to come to an end, to die
Usage: I end, finish, die, complete.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5053 teleutáō (from 5054 /teleutḗ, "a finishing") – properly, bring to consummation (the end-goal). 5053 (teleutáō) focuses on reaching the necessary end-point. Figuratively, 5053 /teleutáō ("come to closure") means reaching one's everlasting destiny (good or bad).

Every NATURAL flesh body that has ever been buried is going back to dust.  Every natural flesh body that will ever die will go back to dust.  NEVER will a natural flesh body ever be raised up.  NOT for anyone ever. 

ALL WILL BE CHANGED.  

So, YES we resurrect in the LIKENESS of Christ, as IN A BODY, but not exactly like Christ WITH GOD as HIS FATHER. 

JUST LIKE IT IS WRITTEN

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


 

[WilliamL]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:27 PM, AdHoc said:

The word "first" in the Greek can mean "first in time", or it can mean "first in importance". Since the Overcomers/Martyrs include those who faced the Beast, their resurrection, like the Two Witnesses can come at the end of the age. That means that Christ was resurrected 2,000 years before them. This makes the meaning of "protos" "FIRST IN IMPORTANCE" 

...which is what I have taught here:

On 6/21/2023 at 5:27 PM, AdHoc said:

The martyrs being UNDER the altar of sacrifice means that they were still in Hades - the place of disembodied SOULS (see Acts 2:27-34). The Overcomers and Martyrs will be the first to escape the gates of Hades in resurrection.

This is incorrect. Everything Moses made re: the Tabernacle was made in the pattern of "the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man... [The earthly tabernacle is] a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount." Heb. 8:2, 5

The altar seen at the 5th Seal is the heavenly one, far removed from Hades; as are the souls seen underneath it. All righteous OT souls were brought to salvation when "the gospel [was] preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6 These are the saints that were resurrected from the dead and came out of their graves shortly after Jesus did; because "the gates of Hades [could] not prevail against them." Matt. 16:18

The only souls now in Hades are those of the damned. Righteous souls now "depart and be together with Jesus." Phil. 1:14 These are the ones "God will bring with Him" to reunite with their resurrected bodies when He returns at the Rapture.

 

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

...which is what I have taught here:

This is incorrect. Everything Moses made re: the Tabernacle was made in the pattern of "the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man... [The earthly tabernacle is] a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, even as Moses is warned of God when he is about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern that was showed thee in the mount." Heb. 8:2, 5

The altar seen at the 5th Seal is the heavenly one, far removed from Hades; as are the souls seen underneath it. All righteous OT souls were brought to salvation when "the gospel [was] preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 1 Peter 4:6 These are the saints that were resurrected from the dead and came out of their graves shortly after Jesus did; because "the gates of Hades [could] not prevail against them." Matt. 16:18

The only souls now in Hades are those of the damned. Righteous souls now "depart and be together with Jesus." Phil. 1:14 These are the ones "God will bring with Him" to reunite with their resurrected bodies when He returns at the Rapture.

 

First I must say that you did not deal with my arguments. But I will deal with yours.

The question is; Is an altar needed in heaven? There is no salvation for heavenly creatures. And who then would be the offerings and sacrifices in heaven for heavenly beings? What you have done is that you have missed the fact that the Tabernacle is called a "TENT" and it was this "tent" that was to be made according to the pattern in heaven. The altar of sacrifice and the Laver belong to the Outer Court and are added because of sin and defilement. So while the "Tent" has the Golden altar both in heaven and on earth, the Tent of heaven does not have a brass altar of sacrifice.

Your decision to have an altar of sacrifice in heaven is arbitrary and without a single scripture. Christ is sacrificed ON EARTH and goes UNDER the earth in death. The martyrs too are sacrificed on earth, and must languish under the earth till their graves open and the RISE. The dead are both NAKED and UNCLEAN. They can only grace heaven in RESURRECTION. It is an overthrow of of the inspiration of Peter by the Holy Spirit to have David in heaven 50 days after Christ's resurrection.

You will also have to reconsider your understanding of 1st Peter 4:6. The grammar, being concise, looks to mean that the gospel was preached to the dead. But it means " 

 6 For for this cause was the gospel (then) preached also to them that are (now) dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Not only is this the correct rendering but your understanding creates a situation where the living misbehave, die, are preached the gospel, and then LIVE according to God in the spirit. No! It's true meaning is that God's temporal government works in the Church with wayward Christians taught restraint in fleshly things "THAT THEY MIGHT BE JUDGED ....". Judgment, as you know, occurs at the Bema in the air AFTER resurrection and rapture.

You also might want to reconsider your statement that Hades only houses the damned. Since salvation is by faith, a conscious declaration of Who Jesus is and subsequent Baptism (Mk.16:16, Jn.3:3-5), millions of babies and toddlers and children who have died untimely, and who could not, according to your theory, be elevated to heaven, will perish. This is neither stated nor supported by scripture. And further, if David is "not yet ascended to heaven" in Acts 2, 50 days after Christ's resurrection, he must be damned according to your theory. Yet the prophets have him king of Israel during the Messianic age (Jer.30:9, Ezek.34:23).

Finally, if dead men are with the Lord heaven, how do they RISE to meet the Lord in 1st Thessalonians 4? After all, they RISE TOGETHER with the living who are on the surface of the earth.

The evidence is insurmountable my esteemed brother.

[AdHoc]

On 6/25/2023 at 2:22 AM, DeighAnn said:

Don't fear death of the flesh body because that isn't the final death.  That is death to this realm.

In your very opening statement you acknowledge death. To "fear death" is to admit it. And the "last death" implies multiple prior deaths".

For every critical statement you make, you never quote scripture. e.g.

On 6/25/2023 at 3:22 AM, DeighAnn said:

Every NATURAL flesh body that has ever been buried is going back to dust.  Every natural flesh body that will ever die will go back to dust.  NEVER will a natural flesh body ever be raised up.  NOT for anyone ever. 

Our Lord Jesus says to His disciples

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. (Lk 24:39–40)

I know, and appreciate your lengthy answer and the time you invested, but I'll let my posting stand. May the reader judge. If each statement is weighed in the light of scripture, they will be found to be correct. It is our fond tradition of going to heaven at death that biases arguments. Consider this; Never has such a crucial doctrine been built on not a single plain statement. That is, there is not a single verse that plainly states that dead men go to heaven. The doctrine is built on innuendo and supposed implication.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Finally, if dead men are with the Lord heaven, how do they RISE to meet the Lord in 1st Thessalonians 4?

Their dead bodies rise, NOT their souls --

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Righteous souls now "depart and be together with Jesus." Phil. 1:14

-- which verse you ignored. Is Jesus currently in Hades, or in heaven?

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Your decision to have an altar of sacrifice in heaven is arbitrary and without a single scripture.

Not so.

Rev. 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at (1) the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon (2) the golden altar which was before the throne. [Two altars, not one.] ... 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth.

If you know your OT tabernacle, you know that the altar of fire was the source of the coals for the golden altar of incense. That altar of fire was also the place that the blood of sacrifices for unintentional sins was poured out, at "the base/bottom of the altar." Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:18 This corresponds to the place where the souls of the martyrs are, because "the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Lev. 17:11 "Under the altar" in Rev. 6:9 is used in the same sense that Jesus used it when he said he saw Nathanael "under the fig tree"; that is, at its base/bottom.

So I stand with what I originally wrote. Could have written more, but have been hours on the computer, and it's past time to go home.

[AdHoc]

56 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Their dead bodies rise, NOT their souls --

-- which verse you ignored. Is Jesus currently in Hades, or in heaven?

Not so.

Rev. 8:3 Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at (1) the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon (2) the golden altar which was before the throne. [Two altars, not one.] ... 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth.

If you know your OT tabernacle, you know that the altar of fire was the source of the coals for the golden altar of incense. That altar of fire was also the place that the blood of sacrifices for unintentional sins was poured out, at "the base/bottom of the altar." Ex. 29:12; Lev. 4:18 This corresponds to the place where the souls of the martyrs are, because "the soul of the flesh is in the blood." Lev. 17:11 "Under the altar" in Rev. 6:9 is used in the same sense that Jesus used it when he said he saw Nathanael "under the fig tree"; that is, at its base/bottom.

So I stand with what I originally wrote. Could have written more, but have been hours on the computer, and it's past time to go home.

Good points. It's 01:30 here so I'm also turning in. We will resume at a later opportunity. Go well bro

[Dennis1209]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:46 PM, AdHoc said:

I am aware of the description of their death by beheading. I judge it to be a generic term for death by authorities. It saves a long list of different types of death.

Good morning,

I have wondered about this, but it seems to be a specific form of execution comparable to John the Baptist. In this technological day and age, this form of execution is inefficient, gruesome, and brutal.

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If this were a generic form of capital punishment, words like killed or slew would be implied. The term "beheaded" is only used seven times in the Bible. Killed and associated words are listed over 200 times. This is a particular form of execution.

To my knowledge, the Greek word pelekízō (beheaded), is only used once in the Bible (Rev. 20:4) and is very specific.

πελεκίζω pf. pass. ptc. πεπελεκισμένος

          behead (with an ax) (πέλεκυς), normally an act of capital punishment (Polyb. 1, 7, 12; 11, 30, 2; Diod S 19, 101, 3; Strabo 16, 2, 18; Plut., Ant. 36, 4; Jos., Ant. 20, 117; loanw. in rabb.) Rv 20:4.^[1]

(117) Accordingly Cumanus, out of fear lest the multitude should go into a sedition, and by the advice of his friends also, took care that the soldier who had offered the affront to the laws should be beheaded; and thereby put a stop to the sedition which was ready to be kindled a second time. ^[2]

It is interesting to look at who practiced beheadings as capital punishment and when throughout history and today. The Inquisitions and Crusades' dark ages, in biblical times, present African tribes and Islamic practices against infidels and Christians.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (KJV) The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

I suspect literal beheadings will again become the prominent form of execution where the Antichrist has control.

 

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^[1] Arndt, William et al. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000: 794. Print.

^[2] Josephus, Flavius, and William Whiston. The Works of Josephus: Complete and Unabridged. Peabody: Hendrickson, 1987. Print.