If you are picked up as a wise virgin you will not be seated under the Altar

[DeighAnn]

6 hours ago, choir loft said:

Jeremiah 30:7 identifies a time in his future he called 'Jacob's Trouble'.  Some translations call it 'tribulation'.  Either way it tells us two things.  First it says there will be a time of terrible persecution and second that it will focus upon Jews - those who are identified in the Tanakh as the House of Jacob.  Look it up.

JACOB had 12 sons.  ONLY ONE of them had land 'allotted' in Jerusalem.  

There is the WHOLE HOUSE of Jacob - 13 Tribes when you drop Joseph and add Ephriam and Manasseh

JACOB includes the House of JUDAH - aka Jews, and those of the Southern Tribes which were Judah and Benjamin and Levi (who had no land given)  who's capitol was Jerusalem, who were taken in the Babylonian captivity.  

and 

JACOB ALSO which includes THE HOUSE of Israel  NEVER THE JEWS but those of the NORTHERN tribes, who's capitol was Samaria, who were taken in the ASSYRIAN captivity.  

without an understanding of these basic facts a Christian is no different than the heathen who 'lump' Israel into one group 'Jews' when the words of God DEMAND you keep what God has divided separate until GOD brings them together.  

THE REASON EVERYONE was called 'Jew' after returning to build the temple is the  REST of Gods Children had been scattered to the world with the 'BIRTHRIGHT AND THE BLESSINGS to take care of, sifted amongst the heathen and no longer knowing who they were.  GOD DOES, and His SHEEP who were WITHOUT a shepherd received one.  DID GOD CAST THEM AWAY and REPLACE THEM with a GENTILE CHURCH? 

NO, GOD IS FAITHFUL.  Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob ARE ISRAEL. 

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV

proof THAT THEY ARE THE LOST sheep Christ came for... Lev 26

41And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

43The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

44And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

45But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

46These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.


"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend." Isaiah 41:8 KJV
 

"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6 KJV

REMEMBER THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL HAD BEEN TAKEN INTO CAPTIVITY BY THE ASSYRIANS AND SCATTERED TO THE WORLD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE JESUS WALKED THE EARTH. 

ONLY the Southern tribes, the HOUSE OF JUDAH, who had been taken in the BABYLONIAN captivity WENT BACK TO JERUSALEM, NONE OF THE NORTHERN ONES did.  I'm sure there may have been a FEW from the Northern tribes, but not enough to count.


"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10 KJV

HOUSE OF JUDAH WASN'T LOST.  THEY WERE RIGHT BACK WHERE THEY STARTED AND THEY KNEW WHO THEY WERE.  


"My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace." Jeremiah 50:6 KJV


"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4 KJV





"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." John 10:7 KJV



"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16 KJV


"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." Romans 8:36 KJV




 

[WilliamL]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:55 PM, AdHoc said:

You will also have to reconsider your understanding of 1st Peter 4:6. The grammar, being concise, looks to mean that the gospel was preached to the dead. But it means " 

 6 For for this cause was the gospel (then) preached also to them that are (now) dead...

This is not a correct translation of the Greek text (which is the same for the TR and Alexandrian sources). Here is the text:

εἰς/unto  τοῦτο/this  γὰρ/also  καὶ/even  νεκροῖς/to dead ones  εὐηγγελίσθη/was evangelized (lit. 'good-newsed'). The particles are translated in other similar ways, but the dative plural noun νεκροῖς means "to dead ones/to the dead." Your "them that are (now)"  is adding to the Word something that does not belong. This was the past-tense evangelization of the dead by Christ that is being spoken of.

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I'm afraid you create a new doctrine. Christ was sacrificed on the EARTH. The SOULS of the saints are under the EARTH. Others must still join them in Hades ere they RISE.

It is you that are presuming non-bibical doctrines. No NT passage says that Christians who die go to Hades -- quite the opposite!

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

On 6/28/2023 at 6:48 PM, WilliamL said:

Which is mentioned in Rev. 11:2. The earthly Tabernacle is never mentioned in Rev.

No. But the Temple is - and it is a Temple on EARTH - in the city that our Lord was crucified - an EARTHLY city.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise, and measure the naos [lit. sanctuary] of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 But the court which is outside of the naos cast out and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles; and the holy city they shall tread under foot forty-two months.

The Greek term naos does not mean a whole temple complex, for which the Greek word hieron is used. Naos refers only to a temple’s innermost holy place, its sanctuary. The word hieron is never used in Revelation. A naos is mentioned 16 times:
– 10 of them directly speak of it being “in heaven,” or are linked to a near verse that does: 11:19 (twice); 14:15, 17; 15:5, 6, 8 (twice); 16:1; 16:17 ;
– 2 of them refer to it being the Holy One Himself: 21:22 (twice);
– 2 more of them, 3:12 and 7:15, also are clearly heavenly, but you can check them out for yourself to decide.

NOT A SINGLE VERSE in Revelation speaks of a “Temple/naos on earth,” or “in Jerusalem,” or “in the holy city.” Therefore, there is no good reason to presume an earthly exception for the other two uses of naos in Rev. 11:1-2; especially since later in the chapter, verse 19 says “the naos in heaven.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Now, our Lord Jesus, Peter tells us in Acts 2 ESCAPED Hades, but that David was still there and that his remains were in the dust of Jerusalem - 50 days after Christ's resurrection!

Yes, his body was there, and are the bodies of Christian saints even today. But that has never been in question. The question is where are the SOULS of the righteous?? Acts 2:27 quotes David saying, "You will not leave my SOUL in Hades..."

Are you teaching from the "soul sleep" doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses?

21 hours ago, AdHoc said:

In a previous post I pointed out that you could not be BODILY present with the Lord because that same 2nd Corinthians 5 you quote says you are NAKED. With no body, how can you be BODILY with the Lord?

And now you misrepresent 2 Cor. 5, without even quoting it. Because in fact, it says otherwise:

When the physical body dies, its soul becomes separated from its dwelling. The carnal soul soon descends to its kind in Hades/Hell. The righteous soul ascends to its kind in heaven, where it is “given a white robe” (Rev. 6:11) derived from that soulʼs “righteous acts” while on earth...

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house [= physical body] of our tabernacle [= soul] is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this* [soul-tabernacle] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed having been clothed we shall not be found naked… 4 …but…that mortality may be swallowed up by life. * “This”/toutō is neuter, agreeing with verse 1ʼs tabernacle, not house.

Up until the End of the Age, the garments of the souls of the dead are comprised solely of either a heavenly or a hellish substance. These souls are therefore restricted to their respective heavenly and hellish realms. At the resurrection of the dead, however, the material (this earthly realmʼs) body will be raised and be restored to the souls of the dead, just as Jesusʼ body was to Him:

Luke 24:39 [After His resurrection, Jesus appeared to His disciples and said,] “Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1523-the-most-holy-place-the-feast-of-tabernacles-aka-feast-of-ingathering/

Edited June 30, 2023 by WilliamL

[WilliamL]

On 6/28/2023 at 6:24 AM, AdHoc said:

With no Christians in Hades, there is no resurrection.

The resurrection spoken of for Christians in the End Times is that of their BODIES. A resurrection of their souls is never mentioned; if it was, you would have quoted the verse(s).

Besides which, it is not only the dead bodies of Christians that will be raised, it is also the souls and bodies of the damned that will be raised.

On 6/28/2023 at 6:24 AM, AdHoc said:

There is also no sense in our Lord's statement in Matthew 16:18. How could Hades have "prevailing" if it has no use for Christians.

Already explained to you: Hades "could not prevail" against the souls of both Christ and the saints He evangelized there to keep them in Hades. Christ now has "the keys of Hades." Rev. 1:18

 

[AdHoc]

45 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This is not a correct translation of the Greek text (which is the same for the TR and Alexandrian sources). Here is the text:

εἰς/unto  τοῦτο/this  γὰρ/also  καὶ/even  νεκροῖς/to dead ones  εὐηγγελίσθη/was evangelized (lit. 'good-newsed'). The particles are translated in other similar ways, but the dative plural noun νεκροῖς means "to dead ones/to the dead." Your "them that are (now)"  is adding to the Word something that does not belong. This was the past-tense evangelization of the dead by Christ that is being spoken of.

You have created a massive problem for yourself. If these be the dead then, how do they comprehend the instruction and "LIVE according to God in the spirit"

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How do the dead "LIVE" after death, and how do they use their spirits if they return to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). Every incorrect understanding manifests itself further down the line.

53 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

NOT A SINGLE VERSE in Revelation speaks of a “Temple/naos on earth,” or “in Jerusalem,” or “in the holy city.” Therefore, there is no good reason to presume an earthly exception for the other two uses of naos in Rev. 11:1-2; especially since later in the chapter, verse 19 says “the naos in heaven.”

Now let me see ... the "naos" in heaven in Revelation 11?? Then the man of sin lives in heaven because he will occupy the "naos" (2nd Thess 2:4). The Gentiles occupy the area it stands on - Gentiles then in heaven??? Was it not you who said that the Outer Court belongs to the pattern in heaven. And the city is named as the city where our Lord was crucified - so there were Roman soldiers in heaven .... But that is not all. Heaven is now called "Sodom and Egypt" and the waters of heaven are changed to blood...

C'mon bro.

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, his body was there (Hades), and are the bodies of Christian saints even today. But that has never been in question. The question is where are the SOULS of the righteous?? Acts 2:27 quotes David saying, "You will not leave my SOUL in Hades..."

Are you teaching from the "soul sleep" doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses?

No BODIES are in Hades. It is the place of the SOULS of dead men. Our Lord's SOUL was not left in Hades (Act.2.27). At resurrection Hades gives up the SOULS in it (Re.20:13).

Come, brother, let's stop right here.

[WilliamL]

3 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit.

How do the dead "LIVE" after death...?

Our souls live in the Spirit after we have been evangelized and saved. (Soul-death is separation from God's Spirit.) The very same applied to those saints in Hades who were evangelized by Jesus.

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Now let me see ... the "naos" in heaven in Revelation 11?? Then the man of sin lives in heaven because he will occupy the "naos" (2nd Thess 2:4).

This is ridiculous! Rev. 11 has nothing to do with 2 Thes 2. For you to equate the two passages suggests that you are grasping at straws to make your argument.

11 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

No BODIES are in Hades.

Agreed. Never said they were. What I said was --

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

his [David's] remains were in the dust..

[WilliamL]

16 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

At resurrection Hades gives up the SOULS in it (Re.20:13).

This is post-millennial, which has nothing to do with either the resurrection at the coming Parousia nor the first century AD's resurrection.

You really are grasping at straws.

[AdHoc]

53 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This is post-millennial, which has nothing to do with either the resurrection at the coming Parousia nor the first century AD's resurrection.

You really are grasping at straws.

Thanks for the exchange brother, and God bless.

[WilliamL]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:45 PM, AdHoc said:

Thanks for the exchange brother, and God bless.

The primary purpose of debates like these is for the benefit of -- as one once called himself -- "the lurkers," ones who generally don't participate, but come to learn. Although us debaters/teachers generally learn a few things along the way too. Such as where the holes are in our arguments, and where we need to do more research.

"Go in peace..."

[AdHoc]

11 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The primary purpose of debates like these is for the benefit of -- as one once called himself -- "the lurkers," ones who generally don't participate, but come to learn. Although us debaters/teachers generally learn a few things along the way too. Such as where the holes are in our arguments, and where we need to do more research.

"Go in peace..."

Well said. It is good that many can read and consider without having to take a stand. They can learn without pressure. Those of us who do take a stand also learn from what is right - and what is wrong. We all profit.

I always keep Ephesians 4 before my eyes. In the opening verses we are admonished to keep a unity that has already been established. Then the gifted ones are brought into the picture "Till ..." we come to another unity. The word "Till" implies two things: 1. It takes time - lots of time, and 2. in the interim this unity must wait. That is, there will be conflicting opinions. In Acts it was Mark and Barnabas, in 1st Corinthians it was Peter, Paul and Apollos, and in Acts 19 it was Apollos again. But the Holy Spirit is very generous. Not one of the adversaries are to be removed. Subtle indications are there to show who was approved, but none are condemned.

It is my hope that this Forum can show the same spirit. And the great advantage is that all force others to go back and re-study the word. One can only profit.

[choir loft]

On 6/30/2023 at 3:10 PM, DeighAnn said:

JACOB had 12 sons.  ONLY ONE of them had land 'allotted' in Jerusalem.  

There is the WHOLE HOUSE of Jacob - 13 Tribes when you drop Joseph and add Ephriam and Manasseh

JACOB includes the House of JUDAH - aka Jews, and those of the Southern Tribes which were Judah and Benjamin and Levi (who had no land given)  who's capitol was Jerusalem, who were taken in the Babylonian captivity.  

and 

JACOB ALSO which includes THE HOUSE of Israel  NEVER THE JEWS but those of the NORTHERN tribes, who's capitol was Samaria, who were taken in the ASSYRIAN captivity.  

without an understanding of these basic facts a Christian is no different than the heathen who 'lump' Israel into one group 'Jews' when the words of God DEMAND you keep what God has divided separate until GOD brings them together.  

THE REASON EVERYONE was called 'Jew' after returning to build the temple is the  REST of Gods Children had been scattered to the world with the 'BIRTHRIGHT AND THE BLESSINGS to take care of, sifted amongst the heathen and no longer knowing who they were.  GOD DOES, and His SHEEP who were WITHOUT a shepherd received one.  DID GOD CAST THEM AWAY and REPLACE THEM with a GENTILE CHURCH? 

NO, GOD IS FAITHFUL.  Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob ARE ISRAEL. 

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29 KJV

proof THAT THEY ARE THE LOST sheep Christ came for... Lev 26

41And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

43The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

44And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.

45But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

46These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.


"But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend." Isaiah 41:8 KJV
 

"But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:6 KJV

REMEMBER THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL HAD BEEN TAKEN INTO CAPTIVITY BY THE ASSYRIANS AND SCATTERED TO THE WORLD HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE JESUS WALKED THE EARTH. 

ONLY the Southern tribes, the HOUSE OF JUDAH, who had been taken in the BABYLONIAN captivity WENT BACK TO JERUSALEM, NONE OF THE NORTHERN ONES did.  I'm sure there may have been a FEW from the Northern tribes, but not enough to count.


"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10 KJV

HOUSE OF JUDAH WASN'T LOST.  THEY WERE RIGHT BACK WHERE THEY STARTED AND THEY KNEW WHO THEY WERE.  


"My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace." Jeremiah 50:6 KJV


"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4 KJV





"Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." John 10:7 KJV



"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." John 10:16 KJV


"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." Romans 8:36 KJV




 

You are incorrect on a few points.

HOUSE OF JACOB is traditionally understood to be a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole.   While other religions have tried to tap into this nomenclature, its generally not accepted as such.  Rather it's a specific reference to the nation of Israel. Obfuscation abounds such as that quoted above, but the primary understanding is that the House of Jacob means Israel.   

For instance, Muslims and Christians also claim to be a part of the House of Jacob.  They aren't, but that doesn't stop them from making the assertion.

JEW is a term used to refer to members of the ancient tribe of Judah.  In modern interpretations, Jew is a generic umbrella term of identification for those of various Judaic disciplines and tribal lineage - including the tribe of Levi and others of Hebraic descent.  

Specifically a Jew is a person who is born of a Jewish mother.  In certain circumstances, one who converts to Judaism may not be considered to be a Jew either.  Specific determinations are now made by the Orthodox (Hasidic) Rabbinate of the Jerusalem Sanhedrin.

Today, citizens of the State of Israel are appropriately referred to as Israelis mainly because many citizens are Muslim, Christian or of a discipline other than Orthodox Judaism.  When the State of Israel was originally formed in 1948 those who lived within its boundaries, regardless of religion, were 'grandfathered in' as Israelis.  

This is not true today, however, as the Orthodox Rabbinate has established religious law to prohibit certain Jewish disciplines from entering Israel and becoming citizens.  (This is in direct violation of the constitution of the State of Israel in that it illegally limits those who attempt to make Aliyah.  Nobody seems to want to oppose this abuse of power, however.)

The LOST - is a generic non-Biblical term that's often asserted by those who claim to have a part in the inheritance of the nation of Israel - as in the 10 lost tribes.  

Identification with the lost tribes has been attempted in the past by non-Jews who have sought to subvert Jewish tradition and establish their own importance over non-Jewish doctrines and disciplines.

The term "lost" has different generic social scriptural and spiritual meanings depending upon whether one is a Jew (as in the Two House Doctrine) or whether one is a non-Jew (bound for eternal torment if not a church member).  

The actual spiritual meaning has been 'lost' amidst endless arguments and anemic evangelism of the 21st century.  In the year 2023 the actual spiritual definition of the term has been eroded to the point it has no meaning at all except to those who attempt to misappropriate it for their own agenda and purpose.

Biblical quotations notwithstanding, much errant interpretation of what were once commonly understood terms and definitions has been confused to the point that they either have no meaning at all or have been subverted for use by persons who have no honest desire to propose a correct Biblical understanding.  

As always the entire subject has been reduced to a control issue.  

He who controls the definition controls the word and he who controls the word controls the congregation.  Control of the congregation results in franchise profit - the bottom line for most such argument and discussion.

In other words, the preacher always has one hand on the Bible and the other hand in someone else's pocket (sometimes their pants too).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by choir loft