Guest AFlameOfFire Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, Last Daze said: I'm not answering for Tatwo but here's something to consider: The Lord of the earth appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18 along with His two witnesses who proceeded to Sodom to rescue Lot. They brought mercy for the righteous and judgment for the ungodly. We know that angels are appointed duties and given responsibilities. It could be that the two angels (witnesses) are involved in the administration of judgment and mercy, which can be seen in the law and the prophets. Maybe these angels take on human form, or maybe they are there in a supporting role. John the baptist came in the power and spirit of Elijah (Luke 1:17). I think that speaks to more than just personality. I think the same angelic spirit that supported Elijah supported John and will be one of the two witnesses either in human form or in support of a human. The takeaway is that the two witnesses are primarily spiritual beings. No worries I am just tossing things out there as far as it goes about reasoning a little over here (this way) and maybe a little bit over there this way. So yeah, cross checking these things, the patterns, the possible contradictions, I love looking at these sorts of things, despise not the day of small things, because as the picture grows for you its a real faith builder. And yes, what I thought was interesting was Abraham addressing what he saw as three men as Lord (Gen 18:2) and the two men to Sodom and Abraham stood yet before the LORD. And where it mentions the two men leaving off from Abraham by the time they get to Sodom they are called two angels. Now I don't know how you would get that to work for the angels (more specifically so) since Jesus tells us that angels do not die, and the two prophets in revelation are said to be overcome and killed. But on the other hand its still true that one man's spiritual condition can be yet carnal and he like all men will die physically, but the same is true with the man who is spiritual (and he too would die physically). So there is still an element of truth in what you are saying but I am not sure if you might mean it in the same way. Its fun to see what might stick to the wall when considering these things. God bless you Last Daze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AFlameOfFire Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 My better computer just got nailed with malware, and the CPU is on fire and whatever it is is just cleaning everything out like nothing I have ever seen before, so I just hit the power button. But thank God for flash drives and extra parts before I even needed them haha! I was headed offline soon anyway, this little event just made it a little sooner, and I am on this puter here but I really shouldn't be without any protection, so its pretty unwise to be online with it. I wanted to say if I do not respond its because I can't, I am not being rude. It was really nice being part of this forum and some of the discussions, this is one of the better ones, God richly bless you all If a moderator reads this, if they can delete this account I would really appreciate it, I wont be able to use it any longer. Thanks a bunch to all of you as well! God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted January 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted January 12 19 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: Yeah, that was mentioned earlier in the thread I was just thinking out loud on places where we can see two men, the testimony of two men, and him sending them in two's,, the law and the prophets, or the law and the testimony, and throwing it out not at anyone really but pretty aimlessly. You know, the two women are two covenants throwing around the two men in that way. I find that's how more understanding comes. I think of these discussions like an American football, you kick it and when it lands you never know which way that it will bounce. Searching the scriptures and discussing them is always a "win-win" situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted January 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted January 12 19 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: Yeah, that's why I was throwing stuff out there and why I was telling Dennis earlier "I know what you mean by too long, because I have piles of things on how it could possibly be understood, all of which will confirm up to a certain point, but not for certain as far as I can prove it out." There have been many prophetic theories in the past. Many have been around for centuries. But there are some things in our present situation that are different now. The most important event is that Jerusalem has been restored to the control of the Israel military forces, that happened in 1967. When confirmed by scripture, this event becomes an important anchor in the timeline. Reading books and writings from before WW 2, it was always "the" major question that was asked by everyone. Will Jerusalem be restored to the children of Israel? But now we know, 1967. This question has been asked by Israel since the captivity in Babylon. The answer is in the Dan 2 statue and the Dan 7, 4 beasts. In Dan 2, it is when the iron and clay toes end. The statue timeline begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. It ends when the domination of the gentile nations over Israel and Jerusalem ceases and Jerusalem is restored to Israel. In Dan 7, the same nations are seen as beasts. The first beast's timeline begins when Jerusalem falls. The timeline ends when the time of the 4th beast comes to an end. Since there are no foreign armies controlling Jerusalem, it means that the time of the statue and the beasts has ended. ------ All the Revelation prophecies must agree with these 2 Daniel timelines. This is done by finding the timeline anchors in events or entities in each Revelation or Daniel timeline. Timeline anchors might be the birth of Jesus in 1 AD ish. The first or second resurrection. The day of Pentecost, The succession of the gentile nations, The changes in the beast Roman nation. The destruction of the 70 AD Jerusalem, etc.. Most of these events can be dated because they are history now. For example, we know that Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC. That would be when the 4th beast came to power over the children of Israel and the iron of the Dan 2 statue began. History confirms the date, so we can be absolutely sure that it is true and confirmed. Simple right? Not a chance. That is because of how the football bounces. There are some who would even debate that statement about the iron starting in 63 BC. In the end, we must make up our own mind. ----- Many of the older theories have made there influences into modern versions and they just keep on hanging on. I think that they all have some truth. One thing that they cannot do is fit into the Dan 2&7 prophecies. Specifically, that the iron nation of Dan 2 is continual and does not stop until the end. It changes form and diminishes in power, but does not end and then start up again. This is a major problem for pretrib theories. 19 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: Yeah, looking at the details and running with them from every which way helps me too, I agree. There is a great deal of misconception out there and confusion. What I did was start all over again from scratch. I started with Dan 2, the simplest prophetic timeline and went from there. Almost all of the symbols and images are from OT passages and their meanings are already known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted January 12 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.09 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.17 Reputation: 1,306 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, abcdef said: The most important event is that Jerusalem has been restored to the control of the Israel military forces, that happened in 1967. When confirmed by scripture, this event becomes an important anchor in the timeline. So if control of Jerusalem is wrested from the Jews would it mean that we are not in the end times of prophecy yet? (this isn't a facetious question, it's actually something I'm giving serious thought to about and watching to see one way or the other in world events) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted January 12 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.91 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted January 12 2 hours ago, FJK said: So if control of Jerusalem is wrested from the Jews would it mean that we are not in the end times of prophecy yet? (this isn't a facetious question, it's actually something I'm giving serious thought to about and watching to see one way or the other in world events) The Rev 10&11 scroll is sweet and then bitter. It is sweet because Jerusalem is restored to Israel. It is bitter because after it is restored Jerusalem falls. This is shown several places. The 2 witnesses and the seals/trumpets which are the same timeline. They are shown to be the same timeline by the beast that ascends from the abyss at the 5th trumpet who then kills the 2 witnesses. The 7 vials/bowls. The kings of the east cross the Euphrates headed for Jerusalem The Rev 20 timeline. The Magog armies attack Jerusalem. Each of these indicates that Jerusalem is restored to Israel and then falls to the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, Iran and it's allies. Each of these examples are basically the same timeline, but are shown from different points of view. --------- The answer to your question is that Jerusalem will fall to Iran and it's allies Magog. After that, 3 1/2 days later, the resur/rapt will happen and then all human life on this planet will end because of the 7th vial/bowl fire from heaven in Rev 20. The reason that this planet is destroyed is that the people of Israel will be destroyed. If the planet were allowed to continue, Israel would be absorbed into the gentile nations and cease to be a unique genetic race. The salt of the earth would be no more. ------------- In Dan 2, the stone strikes the statue after Jerusalem is restored. The stone is not the kingdom. The stone is Jesus coming for the kingdom at the resur/rapt. After that, the last judgment takes place as the wheat/chaff judgment scene. The Pentecost kingdom began about an inch after the iron began. The iron began in 63 BC. The Pentecost kingdom began in 33 AD. The kingdom causes the iron to divide into the separate legs, toes, and clay. The Dan 2 statue also parallels Rev 20, the seals/trumpets/2 witnesses, and the 7 vial/bowls. ----- I will answer any and all questions on this. I hope that you will press for the most extreme details in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted January 12 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.43 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, abcdef said: The Rev 10&11 scroll is sweet and then bitter. It is sweet because Jerusalem is restored to Israel. It is bitter because after it is restored Jerusalem falls. This is shown several places. The 2 witnesses and the seals/trumpets which are the same timeline. They are shown to be the same timeline by the beast that ascends from the abyss at the 5th trumpet who then kills the 2 witnesses. The 7 vials/bowls. The kings of the east cross the Euphrates headed for Jerusalem The Rev 20 timeline. The Magog armies attack Jerusalem. Each of these indicates that Jerusalem is restored to Israel and then falls to the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, Iran and it's allies. Each of these examples are basically the same timeline, but are shown from different points of view. --------- The answer to your question is that Jerusalem will fall to Iran and it's allies Magog. After that, 3 1/2 days later, the resur/rapt will happen and then all human life on this planet will end because of the 7th vial/bowl fire from heaven in Rev 20. The reason that this planet is destroyed is that the people of Israel will be destroyed. If the planet were allowed to continue, Israel would be absorbed into the gentile nations and cease to be a unique genetic race. The salt of the earth would be no more. ------------- In Dan 2, the stone strikes the statue after Jerusalem is restored. The stone is not the kingdom. The stone is Jesus coming for the kingdom at the resur/rapt. After that, the last judgment takes place as the wheat/chaff judgment scene. The Pentecost kingdom began about an inch after the iron began. The iron began in 63 BC. The Pentecost kingdom began in 33 AD. The kingdom causes the iron to divide into the separate legs, toes, and clay. The Dan 2 statue also parallels Rev 20, the seals/trumpets/2 witnesses, and the 7 vial/bowls. ----- I will answer any and all questions on this. I hope that you will press for the most extreme details in this matter. In 1967 , to he little horn took control of Jerusalem after defeating three other horns.This was a prophecy by Daniel . 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. The three horns Israel defeated were the horns of Egypt,Syria and Jordan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaydub Posted January 12 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 186 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 137 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12 20 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: Boo! Hey Tatwo! How are you brother? You know, I am not answering for Dennis he can answer for himself, but I had to ask, why wouldn't anyone think they were not two men? Even if it was someone's initial understanding would seem very understandable. 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth. They are called the two lampstands, we are told right here in Revelation revelation 1 that the the 7 churches are the 7 lampstands Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. These lampstands in revelation 1 are groups of people who worship the true God. Theses 7 groups of people, who love the Lord are called the 7 lampstands. In revelation 1 we have 7 congregations 7 groups of people. In revelation 2 and 3, we have the congregations or groups of people or churches delt with one group at a time. One lampstand at a time is delt with or one group at a time, so we can know in Revelation 11 that the two lampstands are two groups of people. We are also told that they are the two olive trees, which stand before the Lord, so now we have an Idea of who these two groups are. Jewish believers and gentile believers. Two groups of people who love the true God This is why I would believe these two are not two men Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tatwo Posted January 12 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 646 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 153 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12 23 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: Boo! Hey Tatwo! How are you brother? I/we are doing very well…living in the grace and presence of our Lord Yahshua. Preparing and being prepared for the days, weeks and months yet ahead…in a spiritual way. Growing in my calling…by His desire at times…if you know what I mean…and focusing diligently on that which He is showing me in regards to my family. There are 12 on the “inner court” here where I currently live…and a large number (10…and their families) in the “outer court” as well. Additionally there are two other families of various sizes that the Lord used us (my faithful wife of 38 years and I) to bring forth on a “mission trip”…if you will…from many years ago. I appreciate you my sister…and thank you for asking…or more specific...causing me to feel the love of God simply through you’re asking! You are one of His gifts and I am sure your family appreciates that in a big way…you will continue on and be “AFlameOfFire” for all of them no doubt! Tatwo...:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tatwo Posted January 12 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 646 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 153 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/18/2021 Status: Offline Share Posted January 12 23 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said: You know, I am not answering for Dennis he can answer for himself, but I had to ask, why wouldn't anyone think they were not two men? Even if it was someone's initial understanding would seem very understandable. Because they have mourners garb on them, they are two prophets (two witnesses). They prophesy for a certain period of time, and they (as the men who were before them) given power that they can use, and if any man wanted to hurt them (since men do get hurt) they could kill whoever desired to do so with the fire that proceeds from their mouths (and men have mouths). Men speak the word of God (which is a fire) and God said he would make the words in their mouth a fire (and that the testimony of two men were true). But they also die and their dead bodies lay in street of a great city but they also ascend unto heaven while their enemies look on. I find it far more obvious they are men in the picture, whether they are symbolic or not. The majority of the burden would lie on someone who has enough scripture and understanding and ability to convince others that its not what it might appear and in what way to the contrary it couldn't be. Ad how it could be otherwise is what I would say. Especially if its to be spiritually understood, and our first understanding is to take things naturally anyway. Though that does not mean that the players in the pictures are just two alone. Took me a bit to catch two women being two covenants (and both had children in the flesh, although maybe not both were really of the flesh) but the sons were very real, and although you can say the women were symbolic, they and their sons were real. Even the olive trees for example, it might not be far fetched that two such trees in some fashion (depending on how it speaks) be representatives of two groups if it was broken down between the root and the branches, even though it only shows two men there. Ok so I read your post and have a reasonable understanding of what you are thinking…based upon what you have posted. Essentially some of those are things that I too have had to work through over the years…which I have. However something more important is…that I can “see & hear” that we live in a time where there is an “abundant revealing” of that which has been hidden in God for ages past…for our day. These are things that are like Him…in that…we are not “to judge by what our eyes see, Nor make a decision by what our ears hear” which is the common reality for most. That and most as I see it…are basing their spiritual life on doctrines, revelations and lies…from years ago…as though our Lord stopped speaking to His own at some point. I do not live by yesterday’s manna…no…Israel’s fathers did that…and they died in the wilderness…I am fed a steady diet of “the bread of life that came down out of heaven” and as always…the accompanying deep drink of “Living Water.” It is because of this that I often see things “differently” than many…I am not always right in my discernment…and do learn from the folks on the forums and appreciate them. However I can say that my “spiritual discernment” is growing in a more fervent way…in these…the last days. Now on to your more than gracious challenge… Tatwo...:) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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