Paul's Thorn in the flesh........

[Guest duane65]

There are so many Christians that know the Scriptures inside and out, but because of pride, being performance driven, or being stuck in religion, or being taught wrong, or even just plain arrogant, and having the inability to be a team player in the Body of Christ. They can become indoctrinated, and blinded by Satan, or the religious ideas of men.

Had you not prefaced your post with this veiled insult, I would've been more apt to receive what you had to say. You imply that you 'have arrived' at the truth and that all other differing opinions are the result of "pride" or "being performance driven" or being "blinded by Satan". Why did you feel the need to assess the hearts of others and presume to know how or why they have achieved their wisdom? It appears that you already had an article (whether you authored it or not is beside the point) and that your intention might've been to enlighten us on the "truth" that you've discovered. The above post seems to be a sermon or some previously written lesson that you had ready to unveil at some point in the discussion. Now, there's nothing wrong with doing this as long as you don't disguise the topic as being a "discussion" where you intend on listening to others and being humble enough to learn. When you introduce the topic in the manner that you did, and then proceed to discredit the input of others (ie, your quote above) and then copy and paste (or write) your thoughts which are very clearly already set..then it is disingenuous to present this as an open discussion where you are seeking input.

Please, I ask this sincerely, if you intend on teaching a lesson or have no intentions of listening to the views of others, please at least do us the favor of letting us know this upfront. It only proves to cause frustration and division when people are misled into thinking they are participating in an open discussion, only to find out they were baited into reading a sermon.

Thank you.

This is a discussion, not a debate. It is a Bible study that was started to challenge people to search the Scriptures, and pray for revelation. There is no one that has arrived in their walk with God. I teach God's Word in many places, and do have many studies that I have prepared. God's Word is final, and faith, revelation, and discernment is a developing process. There are many people in the Body of Christ, that have been taught wrong, indoctrinated, stuck in religion, or blinded by Satan with mindsets of arrogance, and pride. These are unfortunate, but very true facts. This study is very open to disscussion, and further more open to opinions, and viewpoints. The study that I have outlined and will continue to outline is a guideline, for study. Things must be decent and in order. Studies need a facilitator, and a guide. My goal is to challenge Christians to look beyond religion, if they are in it. Look beyond tradition, if they are in it. Look beyond pride if they have a problem with it.

I have preached and taught the Word of God for a long time, and have seen the conditions of many Christians. I have also seen the conditions of SOME Christians on these boards, and their desire to squabble, and bicker about theology, or viewpoints. It is my desire to facilitate a study, and challenge Christians, and try to keep strife, and discord out of it, because strife and confusion is the will of Satan. God bless. Duane

P.S. I have authored these studies, with the help of others that I am accountable to, and have mentored me over the years.

[Guest duane65]

JUst a note. Do you ever get tired of striving for your walk with Jesus. Wouldn't you like to start enjoying it instead.

We can find, (for it is God's will), our place where God intends us to be. Once we find our place, we continue to grow in it, and God has more than one glory. He takes us from glory to glory, to feed us and teach us through His Word, and through revelation His will for our lives. When He closes one door, it isn't without opening another, but it is up to us to go through the new door. If we don't, we get stuck, and stop growing. God bless. Duane.

[Guest shiloh357]

This is a discussion, not a debate.

Yes, but you are on a message board, and need to be prepared that different ideas are going to be put forth. Since there is no uninamity among the most eminient scholars of our day, regarding the identity of Paul's thorn, there is going to be disagreement and debate.

[Guest duane65]

And God does not dispatch the devils angels to anyone.

Well, God did send an evil spirit to vex King Saul...

...and there's that that fella Job.

Job 3:25,26

For the thing which I greatly fear comes upon me, and that of which I am afraid befalls me.

26. I was not at ease, nor had I or have I rest, nor was I or am I quiet, yet trouble came, and still comes upon me.

Job himself stated that the thing he greatly feared has come upon him. He said that he didn't have any rest, or he had, had no rest meaning past tense, or before Satan afflicted him. And because he was confessing fear before hand, and was in fear of what Satan did to him before he did it to him, this put him in the place that God had to allow Satan to afflict Job, because of Jobs fear, and lack of faith in God. In other words, God protected Job, because he was upright in God's eyes, but because of the fear in Jobs heart in 25, 26 this put Satan in a place to affect Job.

Also this was the Old-Covenant. Satan had much more power over men, because Jesus had not died yet, to defeat the works of the devil. In the new covenant, we have authority over the devil, because Jesus became a curse for us, and Satan doesn't have the power to afflict like he did in the Old-Testament. There were promises in the old, but the promises in the new are far better, because of the restorative, redemptive Blood of Jesus.

[larryt]

And God does not dispatch the devils angels to anyone.

Well, God did send an evil spirit to vex King Saul...

And what about the lying spirit sent to deceive Ahab?

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

It seems to me God is in control even of the evil spirits.

[JohnS]

Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I. Are they ministers of Christ?--I speak as a fool--I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often. From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep; in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness-- besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation? If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. In Damascus the governor, under Aretas the king, was guarding the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desiring to arrest me; but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped from his hands.

[ruah brit]

As for the Greek and the proper interpretation of the passage:

skolops te sarki is "thorn in the flesh. To be even more specific, skolops te sarki aggelos satan iva me kolaphize...

THe literan translation is, "....a pointed piece of wood shoved into my body by a messenger of Satan that has struck me below the eye..."

You forgot to translate the part that shines the light on the whole subject. Let me correct it for you.

THe literan translation is, "....a pointed piece of wood shoved into my body by a messenger of the aversary of God that has struck me below the eye..."

Denise

[amazingrace]

Here's a clue no one has mentioned (at least I dont recall reading it):

Galations

4: 13 You know because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

4:14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

4:15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Whatever the infirmity was, they did not reject him on account of it (i.e. he was not unclean... leper or discharge). In fact, they seemed to have compassion on him, to the degree that they would have given him their own eyes if they could. This seems to insinuate that his infirmity had something to do, at least in part, with his vision. Taking this along with the other passage that in the Greek indicates that his infirmity had to do with being beaten about the eyes, I think we come as close as possible to what his infirmity was... something to do with his eyes, or his vision ... or maybe even severe headaches manifesting in the eyes ... like migraine? I get migraines that feel like I am being stabbed in the eye with a sharp stick.

[JohnS]

Here's a clue no one has mentioned (at least I dont recall reading it):

Galations

4: 13 You know because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

4:14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

4:15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Whatever the infirmity was, they did not reject him on account of it (i.e. he was not unclean... leper or discharge). In fact, they seemed to have compassion on him, to the degree that they would have given him their own eyes if they could. This seems to insinuate that his infirmity had something to do, at least in part, with his vision. Taking this along with the other passage that in the Greek indicates that his infirmity had to do with being beaten about the eyes, I think we come as close as possible to what his infirmity was... something to do with his eyes, or his vision ... or maybe even severe headaches manifesting in the eyes ... like migraine? I get migraines that feel like I am being stabbed in the eye with a sharp stick.

It was on Paul's first missionary journey that he was stoned and left for dead in Lystra. Certainly he must have looked a mess for some time.

[ruah brit]

Paul’s thorn in the flesh was that he had the Power of God to stop those who were, continually without seizing, out to destroy and kill him. But his ministry did not include destroying only saving. It would have exalted him above measure if he would have saved himself by the power of God from death. Unlike the Lord’s two prophets who are coming in the Spirit of Elijah and Moses, who will bring fire down on those who will try to harm them.

Rev 12

15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Re 11

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.

Denise