How could the unbelieving world receive salvation and be saved in the great tribulation ?

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

I know what the testimony of Christ is.I have it.His testimony is not just that he is Messiah.His testimony is in the gospel and in the word of God.

The point I'm making is those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ don't flee into the wilderness.

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

I believe you know a PART of the Gospel, but I'm not confident that you know what the Gospel is in its entirety. Would you care to explain what you think the Gospel is?

18 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Do you get it?The woman flees into the wilderness where the beast can reach her but the saints who have the testimony of Jesus Christ do not flee.They remain within reach unafraid of death.

The answer you give above will affect your outcome of this verse.

[Retrobyter]

On 8/5/2023 at 6:39 AM, R. Hartono said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 3%3A10&version=KJV 

At circa 85 AD Jesus warned about the coming Great Tribulation that will test the whole unbelieving world. He called it the HOUR of Trial. Not just the trial.

How could the left behind be saved from the destruction of 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials ?

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/293940-the-7-apocalyptic-trumpets/

Adding to that there will be global persecution of people who refuse to worship the beast and refuse to receive its 666 Mark shall be killed. Billions might perished.

Any chance of salvation and safety ?

Shalom, R. Hartono.

The answer to this question is simply, "YES." We're ALREADY IN the "Great Tribulation"; it started in the First Century A.D. and it will continue until the Lord returns! It's NOT a "seven-year period!" That comes from an ASSUMPTION that someone made by tying the term "Great Tribulation" to the 70th Week of Daniel 9.

ON THE OTHER HAND, the predictions our Lord made in His Olivet Discourse were also not completely fulfilled in the First Century, particularly in 70 A.D. He extended His discourse to His second coming, and said that the tribulation wouldn't end until His signs were in the sky.

There are three times that the Greek word "thlipsis" is found in Matthew 24: Verse 9, verse 21, and verse 29. 

Matthew 24:9, 21, 29 (Scrivener's Textus Receptus 1894)

9 τότε παραδώσουσιν ὑμᾶς εἰς θλῖψιν, καὶ ἀποκτενοῦσιν ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἔσεσθε μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων τῶν ἐθνῶν διὰ τὸ ὄνομά μου.

21 ἔσται γὰρ τότε θλῖψις μεγάλη, οἵα οὐ γέγονεν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ νῦν, οὐδ’ οὐ μὴ γένηται.

29 Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων, ὁ ἥλιος σκοτισθήσεται, καὶ ἡ σελήνη οὐ δώσει τὸ φέγγος αὐτῆς, καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες πεσοῦνται ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν σαλευθήσονται.

The key phrases in each verse are ...

(9) "tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin" or "then they-shall-deliver you into tribulation" translated as "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted";

(21) "estai gar tote thlipsis megalee" or "shall-be for then tribulation great" translated as "For then shall be great tribulation"; and ...

(29) "Eutheoos de meta teen thlipsin toon heemeroon ekeinoon" or "Immediately but after the tribulation the days of-those" translated as "Immediately after the tribulation of those days."

Now, while I would grant anyone the fact that these are more about a CONDITION rather than the label for a particular time period, all three are in the singular number, verse 21 adds the word "megalee" or "great" as its adjective, and they are not said to be different "tribulations," giving every indication that it is ONE condition that CONTINUES throughout this time period. We're even given verse 22:

Matthew 24:22 (KJV)

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This verse doesn't suggest that the TIME PERIOD is shortened, but rather that the number of days of tribulation WITHIN the time period are shortened.

Thus, this is a SINGLE CONDITION that persists throughout the period from the First Century until the Lord's Return, which is still in our future!

[Diaste]

50 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

The answer to this question is simply, "YES." We're ALREADY IN the "Great Tribulation"; it started in the First Century A.D. and it will continue until the Lord returns! It's NOT a "seven-year period!" That comes from an ASSUMPTION that someone made by tying the term "Great Tribulation" to the 70th Week of Daniel 9.

"

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Great tribulation doesn't begin till the A of D occurs; the A of D which is placed in the Holy Place inside the Temple.

If this time is to be "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again", then it would have to be greater than the great flood, and every other time of dire circumstances for the world. I really don't see that today, nor does it appear to be recorded in the past.

[Shilohsfoal]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

You DO realize that the Arabs who are currently Islamic in their religion are also children of Avraham, right? And, even THEY can be born again when they realize that the Prophet Isa (Yeeshuwa`) IS the Mahdi they anticipate! They are NOT completely destroyed at the Messiah's return, although they ARE in the battle for Yerushalayim and are annexed into the Messiah's Empire after being conquered by Him!

Don't throw out the baby with the bath water! God loves THEM, TOO!

No,if they have not already converted and are in Christ at his coming,they do not stay in the kingdom.They have nothing to save them from the fire.

 

Mathew 13

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

Jesus does not say ,let them who do evil stay in my kingdom till they change their mind as you proclaim.They are removed at his  coming.And these two verses which I have copied and pasted is the testimony of Jesus as recorded by Mathew.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

I believe you know a PART of the Gospel, but I'm not confident that you know what the Gospel is in its entirety. Would you care to explain what you think the Gospel is?

The answer you give above will affect your outcome of this verse.

 

Gospel means good news.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

"

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again.

Great tribulation doesn't begin till the A of D occurs; the A of D which is placed in the Holy Place inside the Temple.

If this time is to be "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again", then it would have to be greater than the great flood, and every other time of dire circumstances for the world. I really don't see that today, nor does it appear to be recorded in the past.

Shalom, Diaste.

Sorry, but the AoD has already occurred in the First Century. It happened when they looted the Temple c. 66 A.D. and set up the Roman Legion's Eagle on the Temple grounds. The Jewish believers were warned at that time as well by an angel. They were to take off in the lull that occurred when Titus was called away "unexpectedly." Then, the believers went over the mountains of Israel and took refuge in the town of Pella of the Decapolis in Transjordan. Those who remained were either killed or taken prisoner and led away to other Roman provinces, which Peter named in 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Those days in which they had to flee quickly over the mountains WAS a time of great trouble for pregnant mothers and nursing mothers!

As far as it being a time "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again," it's been the Time of Jacob's Trouble which has occurred for almost 2,000 years now! That's UNMATCHED! And, they DID pray, and it did NOT occur on the Shabbat or in the winter time, which would have made matters much worse!

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

 

Gospel means good news.

Shalom, again, Shilohsfoal.

LOL! Well, that's the "Reader's Digest version," but what about it made it that "good news?"

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Sorry, but the AoD has already occurred in the First Century. It happened when they looted the Temple c. 66 A.D. and set up the Roman Legion's Eagle on the Temple grounds. The Jewish believers were warned at that time as well by an angel. They were to take off in the lull that occurred when Titus was called away "unexpectedly." Then, the believers went over the mountains of Israel and took refuge in the town of Pella of the Decapolis in Transjordan. Those who remained were either killed or taken prisoner and led away to other Roman provinces, which Peter named in 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Those days in which they had to flee quickly over the mountains WAS a time of great trouble for pregnant mothers and nursing mothers!

As far as it being a time "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again," it's been the Time of Jacob's Trouble which has occurred for almost 2,000 years now! That's UNMATCHED! And, they DID pray, and it did NOT occur on the Shabbat or in the winter time, which would have matters much worse!

Wouldn't that fall under 'an example' of what will be taking place in the future, since nothing else written about THAT SPECIFIC time has taken place?  



The questions asked of Jesus were 

when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Surely we agree, Christ has not returned and since Jesus HIMSELF put all these events at the same time, how do you contend that?  

 

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

Since there are STILL 'nations' yet to be 'preached' to, and ALL the nations at that time HADN'T either, then how could what FOLLOWS aka the A O D have taken place?   

Doesn't basic common sense tell us that those days WEREN'T 'shortened' if they have been going on for some 2000 years?  

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Were the people 2000 years ago saying

'26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not?

Did the Christians of that day BELIEVE that titus was Christ returned?  or ANYONE at that time was?  


Did Titus 

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

WAS there an 'earthquake' at that time?  

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


What were the LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS that he performed?  How DID HE FOOL PEOPLE into believing He was Christ returned?   And did the dead rise?  


Were they saying 

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

And how was Titus, "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God?.

 

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

[Shilohsfoal]

45 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, Shilohsfoal.

LOL! Well, that's the "Reader's Digest version," but what about it made it that "good news?"

No,that's the definition of the Greek word"gospel".=good news.

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No,if they have not already converted and are in Christ at his coming,they do not stay in the kingdom.They have nothing to save them from the fire.

 

Mathew 13

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

 

Jesus does not say ,let them who do evil stay in my kingdom till they change their mind as you proclaim. They are removed at his  coming. And these two verses which I have copied and pasted is the testimony of Jesus as recorded by Matthew.

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Ah, but speaking about the resurrections, Paul gave us this information, too:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER:

(0) CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS;
(1) AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING. 24
(2) THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; WHEN HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. 25 For HE (THE MESSIAH) MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. 9 (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him.") 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is an important passage of Scripture, because it gives us the order and some contextual clues as to where this passage fits in to the order of events. For instance, verse 26 says "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death," and that doesn't occur until the Great White Throne Judgment, according to John in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 AND DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the END of death! We should have read and taken note of the statement in the FIRST six verses of Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And HE LAID HOLD ON THE DRAGON, THAT OLD SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, AND BOUND HIM A THOUSAND YEARS, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. 6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, BUT THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

I would assume that one would know that these words should be taken LITERALLY! So, the Messiah reigns for His FIRST 1,000 years of His Kingdom while haSatan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit. AT THE BEGINNING of that 1,000-year period, we have the 1st Resurrection - the Resurrection of those who belong to the Messiah. Then, the Messiah reigns for that 1,000-year period until He has subdued all of His enemies. It's not just ... <POOF!> ... and they're gone. It will TAKE TIME to subdue all of His enemies and make every last country a part of His Empire on His Father's behalf. THEN, AT THE END of the 1,000 years, the Resurrection of the Unjust will occur, and He judges haSatan and all those who followed him, and assigns them a part in the Lake of Fire. Then, according to Paul, He will Himself be subject to His Father, that God may be all in all!

So, with all this in mind, go back and re-read Yeeshuwa`s words, ALL of His words, about the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN (Greek: Hee Basileia toon ouranoon [not the genitive case but the ablative case] = 'The Kingdom from-the-skies') is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and
the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: en tee sunteleias tou aioonos = 'in the wrap-up of-the age'). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Yeeshuwa` spells out SEVEN elements of the parable and explains what they represent.

Thus, between these passages, we see that the Son reigns for a thousand years during which He shall subdue His enemies, the last enemy - Death - not being defeated until the GWTJ. It is just before this judgment that the angels will gather OUT OF THE MESSIAH'S KINGDOM all those who offend, bind them in bundles to burn them in the Lake of Fire, and then gather the children of the Kingdom INTO THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, and this will be when the Earth is made anew and the New Jerusalem descends to that New Earth.