How could the unbelieving world receive salvation and be saved in the great tribulation ?

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Diaste.

Sorry, but the AoD has already occurred in the First Century. It happened when they looted the Temple c. 66 A.D. and set up the Roman Legion's Eagle on the Temple grounds. The Jewish believers were warned at that time as well by an angel. They were to take off in the lull that occurred when Titus was called away "unexpectedly." Then, the believers went over the mountains of Israel and took refuge in the town of Pella of the Decapolis in Transjordan. Those who remained were either killed or taken prisoner and led away to other Roman provinces, which Peter named in 1 Peter 1:1-2.

Those days in which they had to flee quickly over the mountains WAS a time of great trouble for pregnant mothers and nursing mothers!

As far as it being a time "unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again," it's been the Time of Jacob's Trouble which has occurred for almost 2,000 years now! That's UNMATCHED! And, they DID pray, and it did NOT occur on the Shabbat or in the winter time, which would have made matters much worse!

If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

Two thousands years doesn't seem 'cut short' or no flesh would be saved.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory

This is supposed to happen when the days are cut short.

So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

"This generation" has to see all these things:

The A of D.

Great tribulation.

The days cut short.

The signs and the coming of the Lord.

And, the A of D is to stand in the Holy Place. The Holy Place is an area located inside the Temple. That didn't happen in AD 70. The Temple was burning by then.

I don't see scripture where an angel warns any one to flee. Jesus already did that in the Gospel accounts of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus didn't specify a race or religious affiliation. Let them in Judea flee. That's who ever heard the warning and happens to be in Judea at the time. 

 

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Wouldn't that fall under 'an example' of what will be taking place in the future, since nothing else written about THAT SPECIFIC time has taken place?  
 

Shalom, DeighAnn.

But, the rest of the things in the Olivet Discourse DID take place in the history of the Jews and the Jewish believers in the First Century!

Only the LONG-TERM effects of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, ending with the Coming of our Lord, have not taken place, yet!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The questions asked of Jesus were 

when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Surely we agree, Christ has not returned and since Jesus HIMSELF put all these events at the same time, how do you contend that?  

All the events in the Olivet Discourse are NOT said to be "at the same time!" Quite the opposite, some events happened DURING the times of His own disciples, the Apostles. Only the things which NEEDED long time periods, such as "wars and rumors of wars," stretched all the way to the future coming of the Messiah!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (AoD), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is what I'm talking about. The "gospel of the kingdom" has NOT YET been preached in all the world! Therefore, the end has NOT yet come!

There's a saw-tooth pattern in Yeeshuwa`s telling of this information. He relates some events until He is talking about the distant future, "the end," and then He will SNAP back to His disciples' present, and begin again to peer off into the future, beginning with their own future. He does this several times within His speech. The way one can tell is when He uses the plural forms of the second person, referring to those men seated right in front of Him on the Mount of Olives. So, when you see the words "ye" or "you," He has returned to the present and is looking at His own disciples' future in the First Century again.

And, this AoD ("Abomination of Desolation") already happened in the First Century A.D. just prior to the DESTRUCTION of the Temple in 70 A.D.!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Since there are STILL 'nations' yet to be 'preached' to, and ALL the nations at that time HADN'T either, then how could what FOLLOWS aka the A O D have taken place?   

It had already taken place because of that "saw-tooth pattern!" He started to use the pronouns "humin," "humas," "humoon," and "humeis," again! All of these are the second-person pronouns in Greek. (Used to translate what He was saying, since He probably spoke to them in Aramaic.)

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't basic common sense tell us that those days WEREN'T 'shortened' if they have been going on for some 2000 years?  

That's only true if one is thinking that "those days" refer to the whole time period, instead of just "those days" of tribulation WITHIN the time period. God DID shorten them to the extent that we can list times when the tribulation was worse - such as the persecutions of Rome, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the Pogroms, etc. - indicating that there were also times when the tribulation was lessened for a short while, and the children of Israel had some time to rebuild and have some peace in their families, when they could live their lives again with some hope for a good future.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

For the last 2,000 years, it has been a time of great tribulation or horrific pressure upon the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, and those adopted into the Messiah's family through faith. So, God had to SPREAD OUT the suffering and shorten the days of persecution WITHIN this long period of time or there wouldn't be any Jews left!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Were the people 2000 years ago saying

'26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not?

YES! They were deceiving the Jews, if they could, to TRAP them and either kill them or SELL them into slavery! It was similar to the way "white slavery" goes on today, how young girls are lured away with the promise of some enticing thing, like cookies or candy or some money (if they're old enough to see its value)! And then, they are kidnapped into the sex trade!

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Did the Christians of that day BELIEVE that titus was Christ returned?  or ANYONE at that time was?  

Absolutely NOT Titus, who was a Roman General and son of Vespasian the Emperor! He would be the NEXT emperor of Rome. Here's a little of what Wikipedia says about him:

Titus Caesar Vespasianus (/ˈtaɪtəs/ TY-təs; 30 December 39 – 13 September 81 AD) was Roman emperor from 79 to 81. A member of the Flavian dynasty, Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death.

As far as "anyone" is concerned, YES, there were men who were called or calling themselves "the Messiah," such as Simon Bar Kokhba in 132 A.D! Many Jews in their time were led away with the promise of a returned state of Israel, but the Christians - who were mostly believing Jews at the time - usually could see through the subterfuge because they had personally come to KNOW the Christ through their "salvation."

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Did Titus 

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

No. You're confusing the issue with Daniel 9:27, ASSUMING (as many do) that the "prince that shall come" in verse 26 is a foreshadowing of the Antichrist and who performs the verbs of verse 27. But, this is an ERROR! The "prince that shall come" in verse 26 was indeed Titus of Rome, but it was the "MESSIAH" of verse 26 who performs the verbs of verse 27.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WAS there an 'earthquake' at that time?  

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
 

No, of course not. One must keep the events separate. The earthquake is part of the things that Luke says in Luke 21:25-28: "25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

What were the LYING SIGNS AND WONDERS that he performed?  How DID HE FOOL PEOPLE into believing He was Christ returned?   And did the dead rise?  
 

Many were deceived by the promises that the false messiahs made as each in his own turn came to be regarded as the next rescuer of Israel. No, the dead never rose for these false messiahs.

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Were they saying 

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
 

That was more common than one might realize! That is the promise by which they would gain followers among their Jewish brothers and sisters. 

11 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

And how was Titus, "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God?.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

HE wasn't. But here, you have happened (finally) on the ONE person in the future that SHALL come on the scene - the BEAST! He will be a Jew who leads the Jewish people away from keeping the laws in the Torah.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Ah, but speaking about the resurrections, Paul gave us this information, too:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER:

(0) CHRIST THE FIRSTFRUITS;
(1) AFTERWARD THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING. 24
(2) THEN COMETH THE END, WHEN HE SHALL HAVE DELIVERED UP THE KINGDOM TO GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; WHEN HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. 25 For HE (THE MESSIAH) MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. 9 (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did "put all things under him.") 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is an important passage of Scripture, because it gives us the order and some contextual clues as to where this passage fits in to the order of events. For instance, verse 26 says "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death," and that doesn't occur until the Great White Throne Judgment, according to John in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:7-15 (KJV)

7 And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 AND DEATH AND HELL WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is the END of death! We should have read and taken note of the statement in the FIRST six verses of Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And HE LAID HOLD ON THE DRAGON, THAT OLD SERPENT, WHICH IS THE DEVIL, AND SATAN, AND BOUND HIM A THOUSAND YEARS, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. 6 BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, BUT THEY SHALL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST, AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.

I would assume that one would know that these words should be taken LITERALLY! So, the Messiah reigns for His FIRST 1,000 years of His Kingdom while haSatan is bound and thrown into the bottomless pit. AT THE BEGINNING of that 1,000-year period, we have the 1st Resurrection - the Resurrection of those who belong to the Messiah. Then, the Messiah reigns for that 1,000-year period until He has subdued all of His enemies. It's not just ... <POOF!> ... and they're gone. It will TAKE TIME to subdue all of His enemies and make every last country a part of His Empire on His Father's behalf. THEN, AT THE END of the 1,000 years, the Resurrection of the Unjust will occur, and He judges haSatan and all those who followed him, and assigns them a part in the Lake of Fire. Then, according to Paul, He will Himself be subject to His Father, that God may be all in all!

So, with all this in mind, go back and re-read Yeeshuwa`s words, ALL of His words, about the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares:

Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN (Greek: Hee Basileia toon ouranoon [not the genitive case but the ablative case] = 'The Kingdom from-the-skies') is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him,

"'Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?'

28 "He said unto them,

"'An enemy hath done this.'

"The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38
The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but
the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and
the reapers are the angels. 

40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek: en tee sunteleias tou aioonos = 'in the wrap-up of-the age'). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Yeeshuwa` spells out SEVEN elements of the parable and explains what they represent.

Thus, between these passages, we see that the Son reigns for a thousand years during which He shall subdue His enemies, the last enemy - Death - not being defeated until the GWTJ. It is just before this judgment that the angels will gather OUT OF THE MESSIAH'S KINGDOM all those who offend, bind them in bundles to burn them in the Lake of Fire, and then gather the children of the Kingdom INTO THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER, GOD THE FATHER, and this will be when the Earth is made anew and the New Jerusalem descends to that New Earth.

No,it's not at the end of the 1000 years that everyone who does evil are gatherd out of his kingdom.

That takes place at his coming before the 1000 years.

Perhaps we are speaking of different places.I don't see the world as his kingdom.I see a specific area of the world as his kingdom.For instance,I would travel east to arrive at the kingdom of heaven.

 

Mathew 8:11

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

There is a specific area of land with borders that have been promised to Abraham and his seed.China and Brazil is not part of that land that will be destroyed at his coming.

It is at Christs coming when those who do evil are cast out of that kingdom.

Luke 13:28

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Shilohsfoal

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Only the LONG-TERM effects of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, ending with the Coming of our Lord, have not taken place, yet!

Apparently you disagree with 'what is written' about the time being shortened in favor of LONG TERM effects....to each his own

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

All the events in the Olivet Discourse are NOT said to be "at the same time!"

The answer was to the question 'when'

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is what I'm talking about. The "gospel of the kingdom" has NOT YET been preached in all the world! Therefore, the end has NOT yet come!

That is what I am saying...AOD comes at the end...Titus wasn't.

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That's only true if one is thinking that "those days" refer to the whole time period, instead of just "those days" of tribulation WITHIN the time period.

I'll still go with what is written rather than any explanation that changes that

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

YES! They were deceiving the Jews, if they could, to TRAP them and either kill them or SELL them into slavery!

Jews don't read the New Testament

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Absolutely NOT Titus, who was a Roman General and son of Vespasian the Emperor! He would be the NEXT emperor of Rome. Here's a little of what Wikipedia says about him:

I am speaking to the spirit of truth...I don't get that from Wikipedia like you do

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, of course not.

Again, I go with what is written and so the answer to the QUESTION asked I will believe

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Many were deceived by the promises that the false messiahs made as each in his own turn came to be regarded as the next rescuer of Israel. No, the dead never rose for these false messiahs.

Proving Titus wasn't the AOD

 

 

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

That was more common than one might realize! That is the promise by which they would gain followers among their Jewish brothers and sisters. 

Again, the JEWS don't read or follow the New Testament.  Jesus KNEW who He was talking to and He knew the changes that took place with His Blood being shed.

 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

The answer was to the question 'when'

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Yes, but look at how long it's BEEN since then and He STILL hasn't come back, yet! They asked a simple, couple of questions, but the answer was VERY involved! And, Yeeshuwa` made it clear in His speech that it wasn't going to be any time soon!

Matthew said that they asked,

Matthew 24:3 (KJV)

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying,

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (Greek: sunteleias tou aioonos = 'of-[the]-consummation of-the age')?"

The "these things" was in response to Yeeshuwa`s statement, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." So, first, they were asking about the destruction of the Temple.

Then, they asked for the "sign of His coming," and ...

Lastly, they asked for the "(sign) of the end of the age."

In Yeeshuwa`s response, that requires THREE DIFFERENT ANSWERS because they are three questions about THREE DIFFERENT EVENTS!

The destruction of the Temple would happen in 40 years from then.

The sign of His coming would be at the BEGINNING of the Millennium (actually, just PRIOR TO the Millennium), and ...

The sign of the consummation of the age would be a thousand years later at the Great White Throne Judgment!

So, Yeeshuwa` was giving them the answers they sought, but He had to give them some warning about the first, too! Prior to the destruction of the Temple, their own lives and those of their loved ones would be put in jeopardy because of the Roman invasion and the Zealots' reaction to their invasion.

Therefore, not all of the Olivet Discourse was about the distant future. Some of it was for their SOON future, as they faced the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple!

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

That is what I am saying...AOD comes at the end...Titus wasn't.

It may be ONE'S OPINION that the "AOD comes at the end," but that's NOT - N O T -how Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") SAID it would happen!

Titus, being the Roman general, was part of the answer to the FIRST question; so was the AOD!

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I'll still go with what is written rather than any explanation that changes that.

Oh, really? You're not PAYING ATTENTION to "what is written!"

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Jews don't read the New Testament.

Well, in the first 40 years after the Messiah's death and resurrection, there WAS NO "New Testament!" They didn't have to "read" it; they were LIVING it!

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am speaking to the spirit of truth...I don't get that from Wikipedia like you do

Well, I HOPE you are TRULY listening to the Spirit of Truth! HE doesn't make the mistakes you're making!

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Again, I go with what is written and so the answer to the QUESTION asked I will believe.

No, you don't. You follow a BELIEF of what you THINK "is written."

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Proving Titus wasn't the AOD

Actually, it doesn't prove that at all. You have to READ what's there (WITHOUT interjecting your own opinions), and LEARN FROM HISTORY! How else can one understand when a prophecy has been fulfilled? The Scriptures don't tell a person WHEN the prophecy is fulfilled; it only gives one the PROPHECY!

There's an old saying that is true: "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." I believe that it is also true that: "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that a prophecy must still be fulfilled, even though it's ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED!"

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Again, the JEWS don't read or follow the New Testament.  Jesus KNEW who He was talking to and He knew the changes that took place with His Blood being shed.

He didn't change "Judaism"; He FULFILLED the Law! HE was and IS the HEIR to David's Throne! HE was and still is the MESSIAH - God's ANOINTED TO BE KING OF ISRAEL!

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, but look at how long it's BEEN since then and He STILL hasn't come back, yet! They asked a simple, couple of questions, but the answer was VERY involved! And, Yeeshuwa` made it clear in His speech that it wasn't going to be any time soon!

Last time from my point of view 

TITUS came TOO SOON, so he COULD NOT have been the AOD that is DESTROYED by the brightness of the return of Christ in the last week of Daniels prophecy.  

It's like someone saying THERE ISN'T A CRISIS at the southern boarder of the US right now, when EVERYONE can clearly see there is. 

Titus being the AOD of 'the last week' of the prophecy of Daniel is the EXACT SAME THING EVERYONE KNOWS isn't possible OR ELSE Christ would have returned.  And He didn't.  

There is absolutely NOTHING you could ever put forth that could even sway me a tiny bit. And yeah yeah you think I am confused or this or that but I know how long 7 YEARS are and it is during those 7 years the A O D stands where he ought not and it is at the end of those 7 years that Christ returns and it is HIS BRIGHTNESS that destroys that kingdom and is when Satan is bound and sealed in the pit for the 1000 years.   

THAT IS WHAT IS WRITTEN...

all the rest is the wisdom of man trying to use profane history to tell us what the Bible says rather than the SPIRIT OF TRUTH of what is actually written.  HENCE THE NARROW PATH.  Get off it and EVERYTHING that follows after that is FALSE. Where do you think - Osas, Jesus did the work so we don't have to anything, eternal life in the lake of fire, pre trib rapture, the gentile church is not of Israel, rising up NOT in a body only to return for THE ONE GOING BACK TO DUST TO BE RE-ANIMATED from the corruption of the earth to rise with the UNSAVED DEAD, no age before this one and all the rest of the false doctrines come from?  Sorry, I digress.  


 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The sign of the consummation of the age would be a thousand years later at the Great White Throne Judgment!

Do YOU REALLY believe when HEAVEN OPENS UP and those on the earth HEAR GOD, and SEE the two witnesses RAISED UP followed an hour later by THE DEAD rising up from HELL and then the living changed WHEN the Lord of Lord and King of Kings RETURNS with all the saints/angels from heaven, that THIS 'natural flesh of the earth age' has not come to an end???

GODS WRATH is poured out at that time, is it not?  Isn't that THAT which is determined upon THE CITY AND THE PEOPLE?

How could it be at the END end of the Lords day

WHEN

The Lords feet touch the mount of olives and NOT ONLY Israel, but the WHOLE earth IS CHANGED?  All the elements being burnt up followed by the temple being built, the LAND and people all completely changed.  Nothing will ever be the same once THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN RETURNS, Christ to rule over all the nations.  


The GWT JUDGMENT that comes at the end of the Lords Day, IS FOR THOSE DEAD that rise at his return, not the living.  The LIVING aka 'those who never die' are RETURNING with Him because they FOLLOWED HIM and return in His army to sit upon the thrones (unless they are those who are STILL ALIVE and endured to the end and were 'caught up' to them)   That is why THE DEAD are judged BY WORKS and not by FAITH. They have 1000 years to LEARN the ways of God.  What else would all the 'priests' be doing all that time?  WHAT is GODS DESIRE?  That all come to faith.  The Lords Day is the last (first) chance for souls to either get their names in the book of life or suffer the 2nd DEATH which is of both body and soul in the lake of fire.  

But you have to remember, I DON'T BELIEVE HEAVEN is just 'air'.  I believe HEAVEN is a place (just in a realm presently 'invisible' to the natural flesh eye) with a temple and Gods Throne and there is where Christ sits at the right hand of God and there are angels and beings who live and worship and it is where the 'saved' from the penalty of sin go at the death of this flesh body and where I will go, and I will do so IN MY SPIRITUAL BODY,

as NO PART OF ME, having been BORN FROM ABOVE with my citizenship already in heaven, will be resurrecting from the corruption of the earth on some 'last day' along with the DEAD who do because they were never saved, so they didn't know the way to FOLLOW Him, so upon their death they went to the place of the dead, (same place Christ went to be the first to resurrect OUT FROM the dead/place of the dead/hell) rather than rising up at the first death and getting to go to the place of the living and to be with the GOD OF THE LIVING...WOW, I digress yet AGAIN...

The ONLY WAY anyone will be saved during 'the final week' here on earth is by HEARING the two witnesses and BELIEVING what they are preaching.  Those of those days, who may have read 'truth' but had no idea it was because they were holding fast to false teachings, MAY have their eyes and ears opened and so not be deceived and not to worship the beast whether it means being killed or enduring to the end to be 'changed' when Christ returns but with the 'falling away'...anyway

First will come the LOCUSTS from the bottomless pit, (THE BEAST HAS TO RISE UP FROM THE EARTH AND SEA) who have a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

THEN WHEN

12One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

19For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto *serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

GOD is giving EVERYONE a chance to HEAR AND SEE truth, if not in this age then on the Lords day. 

*I understand their tails are 'like serpents' BUT SATAN ISN'T TRYING TO GET ANYONE TO REPENT nor to quit the worship devils, and all the idols of this world,  as he is into ALL MERCHANDISE. 


 

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The Scriptures don't tell a person WHEN the prophecy is fulfilled; it only gives one the PROPHECY!

Mine does.  The Old told me of the coming of the Messiah.  The New told me of those prophecies being fulfilled. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He didn't change "Judaism"; He FULFILLED the Law! HE was and IS the HEIR to David's Throne! HE was and still is the MESSIAH - God's ANOINTED TO BE KING OF ISRAEL!

He didn't FULFILL THE LAW, He fulfilled the PROPHECIES WRITTEN ABOUT HIM in the Law and the prophets and gave us AN EXAMPLE of what following the laws of God looks like.  How could He fulfill 'don't mix linen and wool'?  Or don't eat pork?  THAT MAKES NO SENSE and comes from following the DOCTRINES OF MAN.  

The LAWS were given to a people who had BEEN SLAVES for 400 years who KNEW NOTHING about ruling and running a nation.  The laws were given to direct that.  

What JESUS did 'fulfill' or nail to the cross were the RITUALS for FORGIVENESS of sin under the law.  HE became THE PERFECT SACRIFICE, the HIGH PRIEST, the temple and all the ORDINANCES that went with that.  


AS FOR THE LAW HE SAID...

16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

SO THE LAW is the same as ALWAYS.  And the Southern tribes, JUDAH, ARE FULFILLING THE WORDS OF JESUS by KEEPING the Law, are they not?

What has CHANGED is,

under the LAW of sin and death, IF ONE DIED and had not made it to the temple to confess and sacrifice with 'even a single sin' to his name DIED A SINNER and went to hell to pay the penalty for sin

BUT WITH THE WORK OF CHRIST when one 'comes to faith' and remains that way when they die, THE PENALTY for their sin has ALREADY BEEN PAID so they are

SAVED FROM GOING TO HELL.   

THAT is why THE LAW didn't work.  Too many who lived all their lives in the love and service of the Lord and the law DIED with a sin that had not been taken to the temple to be cleansed and so HAD TO GO TO HELL.  

GOD didn't like that.  So GOD came to EITHER bring in the kingdom of Heaven or to bring about a BETTER WAY, 

 

GRACE.  

And yes, He is King of Israel, Gods people, who are not only the Jews but also are the scattered sheep and whomsoever would...but more than that, He is returning as LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS to rule the whole earth.  


20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

No,it's not at the end of the 1000 years that everyone who does evil are gatherd out of his kingdom.

Shalom, Shilohsfoal.

Ah, YES IT IS! Yeeshuwa` in His parable said,

Matthew 13:28-30 (KJV)

28 "The servants said unto him,

"'Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?'

29 "But he said,

"'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."' "

Look back at verse 24!

Matthew 13:24 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:..."

He is talking about His KINGDOM which He doesn't begin until He is back to reign in Jerusalem! This is NOT talking AT ALL about the current time period before He comes!

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

That takes place at his coming before the 1000 years.

No, don't mix things up. Matthew 8 is a reprimand to the self-absorbed Jews who thought themselves better than anyone else. He found faith/trust in a ROMAN CENTURION better than He found in Israel, particularly in Kfar-Nachuwm ("Capernaum"), where He often came to stay.

Matthew 8:5-13 (KJV)

5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching (begging) him, 6 And saying,

"Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented."

7 And Jesus saith unto him,

"I will come and heal him."

8 The centurion answered and said,

"Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, 'Go,' and he goeth; and to another, 'Come,' and he cometh; and to my servant, 'Do this,' and he doeth it."

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed,

"Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion,

"Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee."

And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

These who were "thrown into outer darkness" were not "kicked out of the Kingdom" nor were they "sent to Hell!" They were just thrown out of the banquet hall! They were DISMISSED and DISRESPECTED at the same time! They thought that simply because they were children of Israel, God would honor them with the best seats! Yeeshuwa` was telling them that they should have the same humility as this Roman Gentile had! He was a CENTURION, a leader of a HUNDRED men! But, he knew that none of that mattered when it came to having power over sickness and death. And, he came to the ONLY ONE he knew who had such power.

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Perhaps we are speaking of different places.I don't see the world as his kingdom.I see a specific area of the world as his kingdom.For instance,I would travel east to arrive at the kingdom of heaven.

No, His Kingdom starts out small, like a grain of mustard seed, but throughout the Millennium, it GROWS until it is a tree that can provide homes for the birds! It grows until it encompasses the whole earth!

It's similar to the dream of Nevukhadnetsar ("Nebuchadnezzar"), in which he saw a stone cut out of a mountain without hands that grew until it itself was a mountain that filled the earth!

Matthew 13:31-32 (KJV)

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Daniel 2:31-45 (KJV)

31 "Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

36 "This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39 "And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40 "And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

This is how the Kingdom of the Messiah will grow!

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Mathew 8:11

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Again, this does NOT mean that they are kicked out of the Kingdom nor that they lose their lives and are sent to "Hell." It simply means that they are kicked out of the feast! They are DISMISSED with DISGRACE from the DISRESPECT they are shown!

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

There is a specific area of land with borders that have been promised to Abraham and his seed.China and Brazil is not part of that land that will be destroyed at his coming.

It is at Christ's coming when those who do evil are cast out of that kingdom.

YES, but that is how His Kingdom STARTS! However, go back to 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN HE SHALL HAVE PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. 25 FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL HE HATH PUT ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 FOR HE (GOD) HATH PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS (THE MESSIAH'S) FEET. (But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" is excepted, which did put all things under him.) 28 And WHEN ALL THINGS SHALL BE SUBDUED UNTO HIM, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

Malachi 1:11-14 (KJV)

11 "For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN EVEN UNTO THE GOING DOWN OF THE SAME MY NAME SHALL BE GREAT AMONG THE GENTILES; AND IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE SHALL BE OFFERED UNTO MY NAME, AND A PURE OFFERING: FOR MY NAME SHALL BE GREAT AMONG THE HEATHEN," saith the LORD of hosts. 

12 "But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, 'The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.' 13 Ye said also, 'Behold, what a weariness is it!' and ye have snuffed at it," saith the LORD of hosts; "and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand?" saith the LORD. 

14 "But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I AM A GREAT KING," saith the LORD of hosts, "and my name is dreadful among the heathen!"

Have you ever listened to the words of the song "Jesus Shall Reign"? Here's a link to the song: Jesus Shall Reign. (Sorry, it's a UTube, so you may have to skip the ads.)

READ Isaiah 60-66 (all seven chapters)! Ever read Psalm 2? It's LITERAL! And, it will be LITERALLY FULFILLED in a United Nations meeting of the future, after Yeeshuwa` has begun His reign:

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH God the Father), and against his anointed (His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens (God the Father) SHALL LAUGH: the Lord (Yeeshuwa`) shall have them in derision (shall mock them, make fun of them)!

5 Then shall he (God the Father) speak unto them IN HIS WRATH, and vex them IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE:

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." '

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD WITH FEAR, and rejoice WITH TREMBLING! 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, WHEN HIS WRATH IS KINDLED BUT A LITTLE! Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

This is not just some weakling King who will only reign over the small Land of Israel! This is the KING OF KINGS who will reign over the WORLD!

4 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Luke 13:28

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

NOW, to whom was Yeeshuwa` talking?

Luke 13:22-25 (KJV)

22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then said one unto him,

"Lord, are there few that be saved?"

And he said unto them, 

24 "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying,

"'Lord, Lord, open unto us!';

"and he shall answer and say unto you,

"'I know you not whence ye are' : 

26 "Then shall ye begin to say,

"'We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets!'

27 "But he shall say,

"'I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity!'

28 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out! 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last!"

31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him,

"Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee!"

32 And he said unto them,

"Go ye, and tell that fox,

"'Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out (outside) of Jerusalem!' 

34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! 35 Behold, YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT UNTO YOU DESOLATE: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say,

"'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD.'" (Psalm 118:26).

He was talking to those who were about the REJECT HIM as their King!