Are the Tribulation Saints and Old Testament Saints Raptured After they are Resurrected at the Second coming?

[transmogrified]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So this passage is hardly one on which to base a definitive interpretation about the Last Day.

The context determines its usage… Jesus said all that God had given to him he would raise on the last day..

Of course all the saints that God gave to Christ would be all the saints from the Old and New testament which of course would include tribulation saints as all these die in the Lord and belong to him..

Because God gave all his saints to Christ it automatically places the resurrection on the last day because if it was before the tribulation was over they would not all have even died yet so the resurrection can not be before the last day.. Also we know the resurrection takes place at the last trump which does not sound till after the tribulation is over and also we know it is not a staged event where some get resurrected at one time and others at another time.. because Paul said we would all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..

This is also shown in the net parable.. The net was let down ONE TIME and it gathered OF EVERY KIND, BOTH GOOD AND BAD, then it was drawn to shore and they were separated..

Of course this does not fit pre trib because they have a net lowered at one time for some good fish, then they bring that in and lower it again for the other good fish that were not drawn up in the first lowering, then later they have a net for only bad fish..

All this is A COMPLETE MISFIT IN THE PRE TRIB WORLD  AND ANY CONSTRUCT THAT HAS MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS STAGED FOR THE RIGHTEOUS..

Anytime the rapture / resurrection is placed before the last day IT IS INEVITABLE THAT SOMEONE IS LEFT OUT.. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for all to be changed at the last trump IF the resurrection is placed chronologically ANYWHERE before the last day when Jesus actually returns..

In Preterism there as almost 2000 years of saints left out, in pre trib there would be about 7 years of saints left out, if it’s mid trib then there is 3.5 years of saints left out, if it is a pre wrath construct that happens even one day before the second coming there will be one days worth of saints that are left out…

Instead of cutting it closer and closer to the Second Coming- JUST CUT TO THE CHASE AND HAVE THE GATHERING AND THE SECOND COMING ON THE SAME DAY AS HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THESSALONIANS FOR THE PAST SOME TWO THOUSAND YEARS!!!!

There is absolutely no problem in what Paul said about all being changed at the last trump … The problem is there a brick wall of unbelief … YOU HAVE THIS CHOICE… the fork in the road is “ All are changed at the last trump in a twinkling of an eye.. the other fork goes into the enchanted forest of different groups getting resurrected at different times.. one for Old Testament saints, one for the “church age saints” one for tribulation saints… Ect ect… 

And when I say UNBELIEF in this scripture IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEF… Pre trib cannot believe it  , mid trib cannot believe it , pre wrath cannot believe it, Preterism cannot believe it…

Its the miracle cure, given by revelation to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for the believers, and he said if anyone preached any other gospel than what he preached to let him be accursed…

ALL MEANS ALL… If all believers are changed at the same time then THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ONE THAT DID NOT GET CHANGED… 

AND IF ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP THEN NOBODY WAS CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP

Every construct must fit the criteria set out by Paul.. if it fails at any point then it’s wrong..

For example Paul says all will be changed.. does pre trib believe that? No, they have living tribulation saints that go into the MK in natural bodies— ALL WERE NOT CHANGED…

Does pre trib believe all will be changed at the same time? NO THEY DO NOT.. “church age saints “ are changed before the tribulation “ Old Testament saints are changed AFTER the tribulation.. FALSE AGAIN!!!

And how do these errors occur? BY SIMPLY PLACING THE RESURRECTION AT ANY POINT BEFORE THE LAST DAY CHRONOLOGICALLY .. IT IS INEVITABLE, and happens in every construct…

 Run any construct you want through what Paul said and you will see the same errors  repeated over and over.

[The Light]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The context determines its usage… Jesus said all that God had given to him he would raise on the last day..

There is the last day when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We of course see the harvest in Revelation 5

There is the last day of this age at the 6th seal when there is a gathering from heaven and earth. This is why after the 6th seal there is a great multitude.

Then there is a last day at the end of Gods wrath. There is a resurrection then also.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Of course all the saints that God gave to Christ would be all the saints from the Old and New testament which of course would include tribulation saints as all these die in the Lord and belong to him..

Because God gave all his saints to Christ it automatically places the resurrection on the last day because if it was before the tribulation was over they would not all have even died yet so the resurrection can not be before the last day.

You seem to ignore that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah. 

You also ignore that Israel was supposed to be the first harvest of the fig AT HER FIRST TIME. However, Israel served other Gods and they would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

Hosea 9

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

For the things that you believe to be true you have to ignore stacks and stacks of evidence that say contrary. Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits. Because Israel will be the second harvest and they are the first fruits of this harvest.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Also we know the resurrection takes place at the last trump which does not sound till after the tribulation is over and also we know it is not a staged event where some get resurrected at one time and others at another time.. because Paul said we would all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..

And yet no one seems to question Paul about what the last trump is. Revelation was not written until 95AD or so. How would anyone know what the last trump is? They all knew what the last trump was as it is the last of a hundred trumpet blasts on the Feast of Trumpets. Ask any Rabbi what the last trump is, and you will get the same answer. It is the last trump on the Feast of Trumpets, a HARVEST FEAST.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

This is also shown in the net parable.. The net was let down ONE TIME and it gathered OF EVERY KIND, BOTH GOOD AND BAD, then it was drawn to shore and they were separated..

Of course this does not fit pre trib because they have a net lowered at one time for some good fish, then they bring that in and lower it again for the other good fish that were not drawn up in the first lowering, then later they have a net for only bad fish..

All this is A COMPLETE MISFIT IN THE PRE TRIB WORLD  AND ANY CONSTRUCT THAT HAS MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS STAGED FOR THE RIGHTEOUS..

And yet all the scriptural evidence supports a rapture of the Church BEFORE the seals are opened.

Revelation 3

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

There is a door that no man can open and no man can shut. 

Revelation 3

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Those that are watching and ready as instructed will escape all these things that come to pass.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Anytime the rapture / resurrection is placed before the last day IT IS INEVITABLE THAT SOMEONE IS LEFT OUT.. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for all to be changed at the last trump IF the resurrection is placed chronologically ANYWHERE before the last day when Jesus actually returns..

There is an order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

The Jews cannot see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. They that are Christs at His coming are the Church. Then past of Israel can see. Then there are first fruits and then they that are Christs at His second coming will be raptured at the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

In Preterism there as almost 2000 years of saints left out, in pre trib there would be about 7 years of saints left out, if it’s mid trib then there is 3.5 years of saints left out, if it is a pre wrath construct that happens even one day before the second coming there will be one days worth of saints that are left out…

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and there is a harvest prior to the wrath of God. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by The Light

[The Light]

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Instead of cutting it closer and closer to the Second Coming- JUST CUT TO THE CHASE AND HAVE THE GATHERING AND THE SECOND COMING ON THE SAME DAY AS HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THESSALONIANS FOR THE PAST SOME TWO THOUSAND YEARS!!!!

And you just can't get it. The gathering and second coming DO COME ON THE SAME DAY. It comes at the end of the age AT TJE 6TH SEAL...............BEFORE the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The coming of Jesus happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. How do you ignore all the evidence that Christ comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is His wrath. All believers will be in heaven for the marriage supper during the wrath of God.

8 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 

[transmogrified]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

If you want to claim any kind of "exception" to what Scripture teaches, you'll have to prove it with Scripture.  Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die, but we know that all unbelievers will be thrown into the "second death" after the GWT.  So they physically die twice. That's not an exception, because Heb 9:27 doesn't say ONLY die once".  If it did, then dying twice would be an exception.

Regarding exceptions, every human who came back to life before the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent aren't exceptions either, because they did die again.  

I do not follow your thought here at all...I am not saying people who were raised from the dead before the second coming did not die again..

The resurrection I am talking about with the two witnesses is not any exception to the rule as they were partakers of the first resurrection in which all get glorified bodies and will never die again...they got glorified bodies because they were raised when the seventh angel sounded...that is the last trump in which all believers who have died will be resurrected into immortal bodies...

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

...the seventh trumpet sounded when they went up and this is the time when all the saints are changed...we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.. THE DEAD ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THIS MORTAL SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY...WHEN? AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL ARE CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES...THE DEAD IN CHRIST...I.E. THE TWO WITNESESS AND ALL THE OTHER SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...

All this is about the Second Advent.

Exactly so.. The seventh trumpet sounded and then it said 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...' THIS IS THE SECOND COMING!!! They were resurrected at the seventh trumpet...this is the last day that Jesus said all that believe would be raised...the two witnesses were believers, they died in Christ, the seventh trumpet sounded, they were raised to immortality, Jesus comes and sets up his kingdom...

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

BEHOLD THE LORD COMETH AND ALL HIS SAINTS WITH HIM...ALL THE SAINTS ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM...THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...HOW DID SHE GET UP THERE? THE DEAD IN CHRIST ROSE FIRST AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...THEN ALL THE SAINTS DESCEND DOWN TO REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST...

Second Advent

Exactly

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

John heard a great voice of a multitude of people IN HEAVEN...this is when all the saints have just arrived...on the last day...on the day Jesus comes, all the dead in Christ will rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven...this is the voice of all the people in heaven...they are getting ready to come back with Jesus on white horses and to fight at Armageddon...

Please show me the EXACT verse that SAYS "they rise to heaven".  What I read is they are gathered up to the clouds and are changed.  There is NOTHING in ANY verse about resurrected/changed believers being taken to heaven.

The bride descends down from heaven...she had to be up there to come down from heaven...the bride is not a building made up of stones and walls...SHE, the bride, SHE, the church, SHE the believers are REPRESENTED by a building, but of course we know God is not going to marry a building...that would be absurd...so it says SHE DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...because SHE is the believers it would also be the same thing to say  'THE BELIEVERS descended down from heaven...it would also be correct to say the angel said to John, 'Come hither and I will show you THE BELIEVERS...and he then saw THE BELIEVERS descending down from heaven...and if you recall, the armies, which is also representative of the believers, are FOLLOWING Jesus down from heaven also meaning they were up there first...

When it says God will BRING THOSE THAT SLEEP IN JESUS WITH HIM what does he mean? Which way is Jesus going...is he coming up or he is going down? What does the scripture say?

     It says 'The Lord himself will DESCEND from heaven with a shout...and that in this DESCENT to the earth he will also BRING those that sleep in Jesus WITH HIM...So he is COMING DOWN, and he is BRINGING THE RESURRECTED SAINTS WITH HIM...realize what he is saying-  he is not bringing the resurrected saints TO HIM, but rather he is bringing the resurrected saints WITH HIM...and which way is Jesus going? He is not BRINGING SAINTS UP WITH HIM..why? Because he is COMING DOWN, NOT UP....in order for him to BRING saints UP WITH HIM ...he would have to first COME DOWN TO EARTH WHERE THE DEAD HAVE JUST BEEN RESURRECTED, and then GO BACK UP TO THE CLOUDS IN ORDER TO BRING THEM WITH HIM...BUT WAIT...HE IS NOT GOING UP...HE IS NEVER GOING UP...HE IS ALWAYS COMING DOWN...SO HE CAN NOT BRING THEM UP TO THE CLOUDS WHEN HE IS COMING DOWN...

So realize that God is coming down when he BRINGS those that sleep WITH HIM, which also means if he is bringing them that sleep DOWN WITH HIM, that they had to first go up to where he is, which is in heaven.

This is also manifest in the two scriptures that states 'The Lord my God shall come and all the saints WITH thee...' The same word WITH is used here...in other words the saints are coming WITH him (from heaven down) not TO him (from the earth up) Of course they first go up TO him from  the earth, but this is stated when it states the dead in Christ RISE first...this is when they GO UP to where the Lord is in heaven...but when he says he will BRING those that sleep in Jesus it is referring to when they come DOWN with Jesus to the earth...

It is also manifest in 1 Thess. 3:13 where it states 'at the COMING (not GOING) of our Lord Jesus WITH all his saints...'

The point is there is a difference between the saints going up TO him, versus the saints coming down WITH him...and the difference is in direction...he cannot COME WITH THEM if he is up in heaven drawing them to himself..they only way he can come WITH the saints is to acknowledge that Jesus is in heaven and then the saints COME DOWN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH...but in order for that to happen they all have to get up there, otherwise you get into the yo yo thing of pre trib where he makes an additional trip down to the clouds, then makes an additional trip up to heaven, and then finally he comes down after the tribulation...scripture only shows he descends down one time, he does not descend down to the clouds one time, then pick up some saints, then go back to heaven, then come down after the tribulation with part of the saints...NO...This is NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES...!!!!

 

The two witnesses themselves are absolute proof that believers who die are resurrected and ascend up to heaven...

1) They were living human believers..

2) They were killed...

3) They were dead for 3.5 days..

4) The seventh angel sounded...

5) They were resurrected...

6)  They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

Quote

Please show me the EXACT verse that SAYS "they rise to heaven"

Rev. 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.'

So lets see some more scriptures where the saints are up there in heaven...We have of course Rev. 19: 1 where there are much people in heaven...they were not born there...they had to get up there somehow...the way they got up there was that the 'dead in Christ rose first,' ...this does NOT mean they were resurrected first, for the living saints do not get resurrected so it does not mean they were resurrected before the living saints were...it means they 'ascended up first' before the living did...and remember the living do not go up to heaven to come down with the resurrected saints...rather the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven, then descend down to the clouds, where they living are then caught up to meet them as they descend down to the earth, but they are not caught up to heaven where Jesus was, they are caught up to meet the resurrected saints and the Lord in the clouds...it is then at this point they all the saints, both living and the resurrected saints descend down to the earth to reign with Christ.

So the scripture states in Rev. 19 that the bride was given fine linen clean and white at the time this great multitude of much people were in heaven...the angels also have fine linen clean and white..that is why it states the armies (plural) THAT WERE IN HEAVEN then FOLLOW Jesus down to Armageddon..

 

 

[The Light]

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

There is absolutely no problem in what Paul said about all being changed at the last trump … The problem is there a brick wall of unbelief … YOU HAVE THIS CHOICE… the fork in the road is “ All are changed at the last trump in a twinkling of an eye.. the other fork goes into the enchanted forest of different groups getting resurrected at different times.. one for Old Testament saints, one for the “church age saints” one for tribulation saints… Ect ect… 

Or we can have understanding and realize the blessed hope.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Hebrews 9

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

And when I say UNBELIEF in this scripture IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEF… Pre trib cannot believe it  , mid trib cannot believe it , pre wrath cannot believe it, Preterism cannot believe it…

Its the miracle cure, given by revelation to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for the believers, and he said if anyone preached any other gospel than what he preached to let him be accursed…

How is it possible that you cannot see that the second coming occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

ALL MEANS ALL… If all believers are changed at the same time then THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ONE THAT DID NOT GET CHANGED… 

Every man in his order. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. I wonder why you don't believe what is written. You think that you know when He is coming and yet you do not. The fig tree has two harvests, Jacob had two brides. 

1 Cor 15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

AND IF ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP THEN NOBODY WAS CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP

 

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Every construct must fit the criteria set out by Paul.. if it fails at any point then it’s wrong..

For example Paul says all will be changed..

Can part of the Jews see before the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

1 Cor 15

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

does pre trib believe that? No, they have living tribulation saints that go into the MK in natural bodies— ALL WERE NOT CHANGED…

Anyone that doesn't understand that we are not appointed to wrath does not understand the scriptures. And yet you have the Church going through the wrath of God.

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

Does pre trib believe all will be changed at the same time? NO THEY DO NOT.. “church age saints “ are changed before the tribulation “ Old Testament saints are changed AFTER the tribulation.. FALSE AGAIN!!!

You seem to want to ignore Daniel 12 that occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

9 hours ago, transmogrified said:

And how do these errors occur? BY SIMPLY PLACING THE RESURRECTION AT ANY POINT BEFORE THE LAST DAY CHRONOLOGICALLY .. IT IS INEVITABLE, and happens in every construct…

 Run any construct you want through what Paul said and you will see the same errors  repeated over and over.

The end of the age is at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for a harvest. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins. At the end of wrath there is a judgement. Who do you think is being judged?

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

  FreeGrace said: 

If you want to claim any kind of "exception" to what Scripture teaches, you'll have to prove it with Scripture.  Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die, but we know that all unbelievers will be thrown into the "second death" after the GWT.  So they physically die twice. That's not an exception, because Heb 9:27 doesn't say ONLY die once".  If it did, then dying twice would be an exception.

Regarding exceptions, every human who came back to life before the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent aren't exceptions either, because they did die again.  

I do not follow your thought here at all...I am not saying people who were raised from the dead before the second coming did not die again.

Aren't you arguing for the idea that people were were raised from the dead before Jesus had resurrection (immortal) bodies??  

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The resurrection I am talking about with the two witnesses is not any exception to the rule as they were partakers of the first resurrection in which all get glorified bodies and will never die again...

However, 1 Cor 15:23 places ALL believers in history at the Second Advent as to when they receive their glorified immortal bodies.  The 2W are no exception.  Many scholars believe that Enoch and Elijah are the 2W, since they never died physically.  So they get their chance during the tribulation. 

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

they got glorified bodies because they were raised when the seventh angel sounded...

No, 1 Cor 15:23 says all believers receive their resurrection body WHEN He comes back.  There seems to be no agreement among believers as to what the "7th trumpet" means.  So I don't go by that.  Too many explanations.  There is no exception to 1 Cor 15:23.  Clear and concise.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

that is the last trump in which all believers who have died will be resurrected into immortal bodies...

As I said, there is no agreement as to the whether the 7th trump is the last trump.  I would argue they are different.  And I don't really care about whether they are the same or different because I know from 1 Cor 15:23 that the resurrection of all believers will occur when Jeus comes back.  

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Exactly so.. The seventh trumpet sounded and then it said 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...' THIS IS THE SECOND COMING!!! They were resurrected at the seventh trumpet...this is the last day that Jesus said all that believe would be raised...the two witnesses were believers, they died in Christ, the seventh trumpet sounded, they were raised to immortality, Jesus comes and sets up his kingdom...

OK

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Exactly

The bride descends down from heaven...she had to be up there to come down from heaven...the bride is not a building made up of stones and walls...SHE, the bride, SHE, the church, SHE the believers are REPRESENTED by a building, but of course we know God is not going to marry a building...that would be absurd...so it says SHE DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...because SHE is the believers it would also be the same thing to say  'THE BELIEVERS descended down from heaven...it would also be correct to say the angel said to John, 'Come hither and I will show you THE BELIEVERS...and he then saw THE BELIEVERS descending down from heaven...and if you recall, the armies, which is also representative of the believers, are FOLLOWING Jesus down from heaven also meaning they were up there first...

The Bride, specifically all church aged believers, PLUS all the OT saints, who are also in heaven right now.  Why would Jesus leave that group in heaven?  They also belong to Him and will come with the Bride.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

When it says God will BRING THOSE THAT SLEEP IN JESUS WITH HIM what does he mean? Which way is Jesus going...is he coming up or he is going down? What does the scripture say?

Real clear.  Those that sleep simply means all the saints who have already died and are now in heaven.  And the direction is DOWNWARD to earth.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

 So realize that God is coming down when he BRINGS those that sleep WITH HIM, which also means if he is bringing them that sleep DOWN WITH HIM, that they had to first go up to where he is, which is in heaven.

They all went up when they died.  Bodies in the ground, souls up to heaven.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The point is there is a difference between the saints going up TO him, versus the saints coming down WITH him...

Of course there's a difference.  When a believer dies, it is their soul that goes up to heaven, while their dead physical body is in the ground.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

and the difference is in direction...he cannot COME WITH THEM if he is up in heaven drawing them to himself..they only way he can come WITH the saints is to acknowledge that Jesus is in heaven and then the saints COME DOWN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH...but in order for that to happen they all have to get up there, otherwise you get into the yo yo thing of pre trib where he makes an additional trip down to the clouds, then makes an additional trip up to heaven, and then finally he comes down after the tribulation...scripture only shows he descends down one time, he does not descend down to the clouds one time, then pick up some saints, then go back to heaven, then come down after the tribulation with part of the saints...NO...This is NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES...!!!!

Since I have repented of my belief in a pretrib rapture, I agree with this.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The two witnesses themselves are absolute proof that believers who die are resurrected and ascend up to heaven...

Zero proof.  They simply were raised to life again.  In fact, God put their life back into their bodies in the EXACT SAME WAY He gave life to Adam in Gen 2:7.  They did NOT receive a glorified immortal body.  That will occur at the Second Advent.  There is no indication of glorification in the text.  Show me if you think there is.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

1) They were living human believers..

2) They were killed...

3) They were dead for 3.5 days..

4) The seventh angel sounded...

5) They were resurrected...

6)  They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

Rev. 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.

Please prove #4 in that text.  In fact, there is NO MENTION of any trumpet in that text.  You have added to Scripture.  They are killed DURING the tribulation, not when Jesus comes.  Why would Jesus bring them up to heaven when 1 Cor 15:23 says the resurrection will be "when He comes".  Your view has problems you can't answer.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

So lets see some more scriptures where the saints are up there in heaven

Don't need to.  Of course ALL the saints who have died before Jesus returns at the Second Advent will be in heaven.

16 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

So the scripture states in Rev. 19 that the bride was given fine linen clean and white at the time this great multitude of much people were in heaven...the angels also have fine linen clean and white..that is why it states the armies (plural) THAT WERE IN HEAVEN then FOLLOW Jesus down to Armageddon..

Yep.

[The Light]

37 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

.scripture only shows he descends down one time, he does not descend down to the clouds one time, then pick up some saints, then go back to heaven, then come down after the tribulation with part of the saints...NO...This is NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES...!!!!

 

The two witnesses themselves are absolute proof that believers who die are resurrected and ascend up to heaven...

1) They were living human believers..

2) They were killed...

3) They were dead for 3.5 days..

4) The seventh angel sounded...

5) They were resurrected...

6)  They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

Rev. 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.'

 

 

 

This disproves everything you are saying. The seventh trumpet does not sound when the two witnesses come back to life and rise to heaven. You just threw that in. Scripture says the event of the two witness occurs during the 2nd woe. The seventh trump blown by a angel occurs after this.

So all you claims again go up in smoke.

When are you going to realize you are wrong about this?

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The context determines its usage… Jesus said all that God had given to him he would raise on the last day..

And again, I say that your conclusion is not proven by this Greek text. Which text is at least equally as likely, and probably more likely, to be correctly read "in the last day." That "day" possibly being millennial, or possibly meaning the last day of the Christian Age, and most likely meaning the whole span of time in which God's End Times judgements take place, called "the Day of the Lord."

[The Light]

3 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

Exactly so.. The seventh trumpet sounded and then it said 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...' THIS IS THE SECOND COMING!!! They were resurrected at the seventh trumpet...this is the last day that Jesus said all that believe would be raised...the two witnesses were believers, they died in Christ, the seventh trumpet sounded, they were raised to immortality, Jesus comes and sets up his kingdom...

 

 

 

No. The seventh trumpet blown by an angel is the SECOND ADVENT, not the second coming.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord but He will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.