The Problem With Evolution- Part 1, Ape to Man Ridiculousness

[teddyv]

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

So why place so much weight on a theory? Especially when it conflicts with the bible.

Some theories are very well-supported. Others are not as robust. You cannot treat every single scientific theory on equal footing. There is no proving of a theory (as in mathematics). We can only continue to test, observe, predict, and so on.

As for conflict with the Bible, that's the creationists' problem, not mine. I don't see any particular conflict. It's a matter of interpretation.

There are going to be certain unanswerable questions but I can live with that.

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

I would never make such a silly statement as the one you quoted. 

Well, to use your language here, I find your the OP premise silly since it hinges on outdated creationist tropes. 

[The Barbarian]

9 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Especially when it conflicts with the bible.

It conflicts with one modern interpretation of the Bible.  But not with the Bible itself.

 

[Starise]

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Not just look similar.   That would be confusing analogy to homology.   Our bodies are homologous to bodies of other apes because we have a common ancestor.   But there's more than that.  Our genes show the same homologies.

Who is the common ancestor? Apes have four legs. Humans have only two.Where did language ability come from? You see, none of this adds up and is in direct conflict with the bible.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

What it doesn't say, is that animals reproduce according to kind.   I've shown you this several times.   It doesn't say what you want it to day, but you keep telling me that it does.

Ok translate the passage to say what you think it says. 

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Right.   It doesn't say that animals reproduce according to kind.

The word reproduce isn't specifically there in my version. It says God made animals after their kind. How is that any different?

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

If we take away the word salad, we get "Those with traits that favor survival tend to live to reproduce.  Those with traits that don't favor survival, don't.   Which is precisely what Darwin said.  There is no "programming."    He created nature to work this way

No you're rearranging my statement to make it sound different than I intended.

3 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

So if all primates are a "kind", that would put humans in there with Tarsiers, lemurs, monkeys and other apes.

"Kinds" is a vague religious term without a scientific definition.  Within humans, for example there are anatomically modern humans, Neanderthals, Denisovans, and at least one yet to be found kind.    Yet they are all the same species, H. sapiens.

You seem to hold the view that God made a bunch of H. sapien models and one especially good one to breath a soul into.  In the creation account, God made each set of creatures after kind. Lastly He made man, which was also a kind, however, however, a much superior kind, with a soul.

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

But you can't show us those supposed "limits."   Because they are religious beliefs, not observed facts. 

Most of what you believe isn't an observed fact either. You even posted a hoax earlier.

Limits are very apparent. Some animals only have the ability to develop a thicker fur or some other minor exterior change. It's what we don't see that proves there are limits.

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

So you reject the idea that all cats today evolved from a single "cat kind" on the Ark just a few thousand years ago?   Lions, cheetahs, Siamese, ocelots, etc.   Looks like a huge amount of evolution to me.   Assuming you believe the Ark flood was a real event.

Excuse me, you are talking here about micro evolution, and I've already said we have proof for that. 

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

As you see, there were different kinds of H. sapiens.   We're talking about something that's farther than mere kinds.

Some point in our evolution, there was a chromosome fusion, so we have one less chromosome than other apes.   Which means we can't interbreed, even if we are genetically very close to chimpanzees.    Would you like to learn how we know about that fusion?

Once again this is in direct contrast to the way the bible states we were made. God made us with that number of chromosomes.

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Notice that the fused chromosome still has remains of the centromere that was lost in the fusion.   Pretty hard to ignore that kind of evidence.

We are like God in our minds and souls, not in our bodies.

The trinity consists of Father, Son and Holy ghost. The Son has a body in the same form as our body.Plenty of scripture to back that up. We are made in the "image" of God. Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father. Notice "right hand".

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Jesus says that God is a spirit.  And he says a spirit has no body.   God says that when he breathed a soul into man, he became a living soul.

I believe God.  We all should.

God is a trinity, and Jesus is a part of that trinity.

[Starise]

34 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Well, to use your language here, I find your the OP premise silly since it hinges on outdated creationist tropes. 

I think you misunderstood.I was referring to the statement you attributed to a creationist.

Do you think our bible is outdated?

[teddyv]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

It conflicts with one modern interpretation of the Bible.  But not with the Bible itself.

 

That was not my post you quoted. :)

[teddyv]

42 minutes ago, Starise said:

I think you misunderstood.I was referring to the statement you attributed to a creationist.

My apologies. I did misunderstand. Yet I have seen that sentiment posted here and many other places.

42 minutes ago, Starise said:

Do you think our bible is outdated?

Of course not.

[Sparks]

4 hours ago, teddyv said:

Research papers are peer-reviewed.

... by a bunch of evolutionists. 

[The Barbarian]

39 minutes ago, teddyv said:

That was not my post you quoted.

Er, right.  Sorry.

[The Barbarian]

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Who is the common ancestor? Apes have four legs. Humans have only two.

Actually, apes have two legs and two arms.   Hands on the arms.  So do we.

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Ok translate the passage to say what you think it says. 

Don't have to.  I accept it as it is, without the addition of "reproduce according to kind."

1 hour ago, Starise said:

The word reproduce isn't specifically there in my version.

Show me a version where it is.  Why not just accept it as it is?

If we take away the word salad, we get "Those with traits that favor survival tend to live to reproduce.  Those with traits that don't favor survival, don't.   Which is precisely what Darwin said.  There is no "programming."    He created nature to work this way.

1 hour ago, Starise said:

No

Yes.   That's how it works.  

1 hour ago, Starise said:

No you're rearranging my statement to make it sound different than I intended.

I'm just showing you what natural selection does.

So you reject the idea that all cats today evolved from a single "cat kind" on the Ark just a few thousand years ago?   Lions, cheetahs, Siamese, ocelots, etc.   Looks like a huge amount of evolution to me.   Assuming you believe the Ark flood was a real event.

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Excuse me, you are talking here about micro evolution

No.  Microevolution is evolution within a species.  Macroevolution is speciation.   In the case of cats, 37 species, 18 genera, and 3 subfamilies.   A lot of macroevolution there.

1 hour ago, Starise said:

You seem to hold the view that God made a bunch of H. sapien models and one especially good one to breath a soul into. 

Why would it bother you if He chose to give two humans immortal souls and become the ancestors of all living humans?

you can't show us those supposed "limits" to evolution.   Because they are religious beliefs, not observed facts. 

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Limits are very apparent.

But you can't show us any?   Why not?

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Most of what you believe isn't an observed fact either. You even posted a hoax earlier.

No, you posted a hoax.   We don't actually know who planted "Piltdown Man" , but we do know it was exposed by evolutionists.   Which suggests...

1 hour ago, Starise said:

Once again this is in direct contrast to the way the bible states we were made. God made us with that number of chromosomes.

And He put inactivated centromeres and telomeres in one of them to fake evidence for a chromosome fusion, because...?

• The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere in the q21.3–q22.1 region.^[12]
• The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the q13 band, far from either end of the chromosome.^[13]

We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2

1 hour ago, Starise said:

The trinity consists of Father, Son and Holy ghost.

But Jesus says that God is a spirit and He says that a spirit has no body.   Jesus has a body only because He became man as well as God.   Hence, our likeness to God is not in our physical appearance.

Jesus says that God is a spirit.  And he says a spirit has no body.   God says that when he breathed a soul into man, he became a living soul.

I believe God.  We all should.

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:16 AM, teddyv said:

You were taught evolution over 12 years in school? I barely remember the subject being done in any detail. Certainly my elementary school being Christian, did not. Junior High spent maybe a third of the year on biology but mostly on other subjects. Senior High, I did not even take biology.

I suspect almost everyone here is the same so don't over exaggerate too much. It's clear many here cannot even properly define evolution so perhaps it should be taught more.

 

Yes, I recall every biology book I read in school ALWAYS mentioned millions of years. Obviously not every single day, but at least a little each year. I wasn't a Christian in my youth so I didn't know any better. Now that I am a Christian, I am horrified by this terrible lie that is forced on millions of kids in school, and even more horrified that most Christians aren't also bothered by it.