Diaste Posted September 1, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,647 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,376 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) Rev 11 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 15 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, beside which stood those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name. They were holding harps from God, 3and they sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: Rev 20 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. Face the beast, live and reign with Christ. Don't face the beast, wait till the 2nd resurrection. [One exception] Edited October 15, 2023 by Diaste Added Rev 15 verse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted September 1, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,137 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Diaste said: So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They have washed their robes. Does not say they went through to the end of the G.T. But they came out from the G.T. So these cannot been the ones from just before the 5th Trumpet and beyond when ALL worship Idols, and did not Repent. They were gathered sometime before the 5th Trumpet. When did they come out of the GT? Since they are up in heaven with Christ, Christ has not returned to the Mt of Olives. Later to return with Christ in the clouds with all the other Saints. Who is missing, All the O.T. Saints; all the N.T. Saints who have died, and are Alive. and Never made into or out of the 70th Week. The Bride is given Fine Linen, not a robe. The Bride or Church is without spot or wrinkle, no need for us to wash anything. Our clothes are already clean. 5 hours ago, Diaste said: And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Only those who were beheaded are in this group, what about 70th Week Believers who died from starvation, sword and plague and wild beasts (Rev 6: 7,8) Now some of these can be included with those who have washed their robes and have palm branches in their hands. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted September 1, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Diaste said: Rev 11 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 20 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. Face the beast, live and reign with Christ. Don't face the beast, wait till the 2nd resurrection. [One exception] This is not how I see it. The 144000 are resurected.They faced the beast ,died and live forever.This is the remnant of Israel for the beast is the Israeli government. The great multitude comes out of great tribulation.It doesn't say they died.I believe they haven't died and instead are the survivors of the nations that come against Jerusalem.They assemble to keep the feast of tabernacles. Zech 14 16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. The nations that I believe attack Jerusalem are the ten nations who attack the harlot.The survivors are the christians in those countries.Countries found in the promised land.I have been considering taking a trip east though. That's what I believe. Edited September 1, 2023 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garee Posted September 1, 2023 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 222 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 45 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/10/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted September 1, 2023 The 144,000 is the number no man could count according to the golden measure. all born again sants God does not number days or people. Mankind is quick to fill in the number. More than one sect makes the claim of the 144000. Yoked with Christ we walk by faith after the unseen things of God . Those who trust in the outward man are not trusting Christ Again a number no man could count.God does not allow counting on dying flesh and blood Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered 2 Corinthians 10:12 We don’t dare put ourselves in the same class with those who think they are so important. We don’t compare ourselves to them. They use themselves to measure themselves, and they judge themselves by what they themselves are. This shows that they know nothing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,159 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,568 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted September 2, 2023 14 hours ago, Diaste said: Rev 11 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. Rev 7, not 11. These are the post-trib, pre-wrath saints who are raptured at the Parousia of Christ. Witnessed by their being in heaven before the Throne. Whereas the Rev. 20 saints are post-wrath saints who will have had to live through the time of the Beast kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,647 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,376 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 2, 2023 9 hours ago, WilliamL said: Rev 7, not 11. These are the post-trib, pre-wrath saints who are raptured at the Parousia of Christ. Witnessed by their being in heaven before the Throne. Whereas the Rev. 20 saints are post-wrath saints who will have had to live through the time of the Beast kingdom. The parousia is post GT, pre God's wrath. There are only two resurrections, the primary resurrection of post GT saints who faced the beast and the 2nd resurrection where the power of death has some authority. There isn't a pre wrath, post wrath, the 2nd death resurrections, that would be three, we know of only two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,647 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,376 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 2, 2023 18 hours ago, Montana Marv said: They have washed their robes. Does not say they went through to the end of the G.T. But they came out from the G.T. So these cannot been the ones from just before the 5th Trumpet and beyond when ALL worship Idols, and did not Repent. They were gathered sometime before the 5th Trumpet. Many won't get through the GT, because they die a physical death before it's over. Some will make it to the end as there must be those who are alive and remain. There is zero evidence of a gathering pre 70th week, or even pre GT. 18 hours ago, Montana Marv said: When did they come out of the GT? Since they are up in heaven with Christ, Christ has not returned to the Mt of Olives. Later to return with Christ in the clouds with all the other Saints. Likely not. The timing for such ideas is missing and there is also misinterpretation. 18 hours ago, Montana Marv said: Who is missing, All the O.T. Saints; all the N.T. Saints who have died, and are Alive. and Never made into or out of the 70th Week. The Bride is given Fine Linen, not a robe. The Bride or Church is without spot or wrinkle, no need for us to wash anything. Our clothes are already clean. Yeah. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? I'm in my 60s. That means if I die before the arrival of the beast, the GT and the return of the King, I won't be resurrected until the 1000 year reign is over, to stand before judgement with the 2nd death hanging over my head. It's a sobering thought. 18 hours ago, Montana Marv said: Only those who were beheaded are in this group, what about 70th Week Believers who died from starvation, sword and plague and wild beasts (Rev 6: 7,8) Now some of these can be included with those who have washed their robes and have palm branches in their hands. I have inquired about this. Is this one group with several attributes, or anyone as long as they have at least one of the attributes? It's the latter for me. As long as one doesn't take the mark, worship the beast or it's image, and hold to the testimony of Christ, they are in the group seen in Rev 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeighAnn Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 6,301 Content Per Day: 3.59 Reputation: 1,658 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/31/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2023 On 9/1/2023 at 2:35 AM, Diaste said: Rev 11 After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” 13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” 14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 20 And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. Face the beast, live and reign with Christ. Don't face the beast, wait till the 2nd resurrection. [One exception] I would like to put forth for your consideration once again, (because hopefully I am getting better at putting what is in my head into words) the possibility that the 'GREAT TRIBULATION' written here is about THIS ENTIRE AGE, this age in which we are 'partakers of flesh and blood', this age in which we have been made 'a little lower than angels', this age which culminates and/or includes the Lords Day and the book of life Why? Because of the 'HEAVEN AND EARTH AGE' Chapter 7 seems to be talking about, isn't this one. The 'wind' of God isn't released before the final days of this age. The prince of the power of the air is running to and fro doing his thing, but until GODS PEOPLE are done being sealed, no WIND of God. GODS people have been being 'sealed' from the time of Adam and Eve and Satan's people have been being 'marked' from the time of Cain. There spot is not our spot, their rock is not our rock In Chapter 7, First to be listed is JACOB/ISRAEL. The 12 original sons of Israel (under law) (TO THE JEW FIRST, THEN GREEK) After them we see those FROM ALL TONGUES/NATIONS which would REQUIRE them to have come from EITHER under Grace, OR WORKS during the Lords Day, their names in the book of life (ONE WAY IN WHICH THE DEAD DON'T LIVE FOR 1000 YEARS) BECAUSE THAT IS the only way in which ALL or EVERY nation could be included in those before the throne The question is when is this feasible? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. That doesn't take place until the New Heaven and the New Earth has become home*. Thoughts on 'the dead' not living or coming to life for 1000 years Before we, you and I, came to faith, we were 'dead' in our sins. Walking around as 'alive' as we knew to be, the reality, DEAD as far as God was concerned. When did we begin to 'live' or when did we 'come to life'? We 'came to life' when we passed from death to life by coming to Faith before we died, What about those who died still being 'spiritually dead'? They died and went to the place of the dead, and they REMAIN there until Christ returns. ONLY when Christ returns are the spiritually dead resurrected aka 'the die' as opposed to the 'never die'. The DEAD will be raised up in their 'spiritual/heavenly body' BECAUSE heaven has come to earth and flesh and blood can't inherit it. STAY WITH ME the words of God are PERFECT and GOD IS JUST. Always our foundation. Being resurrected in a spiritual body DOES NOT MEAN raised up with immortality/immortal. Even though the DEAD rise up in a spiritual body, they REMAIN spiritually dead, mortal/liable to die. Mortal because they are raised up from the corruption, and the ONLY path left to immortality is through works which gets their names in the book of life at the GWTJ which takes 1000 years. again, they remain mortal because they remain spiritually 'dead' until BY THEIR WORKS they get their name in the book of life. That is going to take them 1000 years. No short cuts, no time off, no time shortened, they have to wait till the next judgment. Why are THE DEAD raised up from the place of the dead? TO LEARN GODS TRUTH AND TO BE RULED OVER with a ROD OF IRON, so the desire of God that ALL COME TO REPENTANCE is given every chance possible. NOT all the dead will be afforded this final opportunity. There is the dividing of the 'sheep and goats'. This resurrection from hell ISN'T a 'second chance' FOR ANYONE WHO CHOSE DEATH, the ways of the world, or is EVIL ETC. (though I would welcome being persuaded it could/would be a 2nd chance for those who took the mark of the beast having been deceived because of false doctrine and became bird food but pretty sure that is not going to fly) So the resurrected DEAD will need to be divided. Some cast back to hell death sea aka outer darkness...the sheep both Just and Unjust aka book of life or Lake of fire....NONE of them become immortal till the end, if at all. AGAIN, because I don't think I can put it forth enough, although risen to 'walk the earth' in a spiritual body, THEY REMAIN MORTAL PROOF other than the dead lived not for 1000 years They were raised up from the corruption of the earth...neither doth corruption inherit incorruption UNLIKE US, they can't EVER COME TO FAITH and GETTING THERE by WORKS takes a 1000 years. Withe Christ is here, all that's left is KNOWLEDGE of exactly who He is. (every knee shall bow) and GODS TRUTH will be taught and LIVED here on earth as it is in heaven.... So, for the 1000 years, 'the spiritually dead' having risen from 'the place the spiritually dead', walk the earth still facing the GWTJ and the book of life or the 2nd death. They have to WAIT to come to LIFE because they have to WORK, and then be JUDGED WORTHY to get their names into the book of life and only then do they TRULY get to rise up AND BECOME IMMORTAL Last time, Those who RISE/resurrect from 'the place of death' rise up in their spiritual body STILL subject to the 2nd death, so Mortal physically alive spiritually dead (not having attained to eternal salvation/life) At least that is what I see written * 1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 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Montana Marv Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,137 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2023 6 hours ago, Diaste said: Yeah. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? I'm in my 60s. That means if I die before the arrival of the beast, the GT and the return of the King, I won't be resurrected until the 1000 year reign is over, to stand before judgement with the 2nd death hanging over my head. It's a sobering thought. If you think that way, If you die prior to the 70th Week and the Beast being revealed; then you are in the same boat with Matthew, Mark, Luke,. John, Peter, and Paul, and others "In Christ Believers, Indwelt by the Holy Spirit" who have died over the past 2000 years. Where they are, you will be with them, waiting for the transformation. They are part of the Dead in Christ who rise First. Then those In Christ who are still alive will meet them in the air. All here have been crucified with Christ (we already have died), We all have been buried in his baptism (we all are/were considered in the grave already). We all have been Resurrected with Christ, (therefore already guaranteed a place {the second in line, Christ being the First Fruit} into the 1st Resurrection). This group of all is just waiting for their ascension, which is the Rapture (which is not a Resurrection). Why, because those who have died, meet those still alive in the air, thus the term resurrection does not fit in a since, because those Alive go up also as a group. But what suck's is that all O.T. Saints from Adam to whomever died prior to Pentecost must wait till the 1000 years have ended to receive their entry into the First Resurrection. This does not include those Just from Israel which arise prior to the onset of the 1000 years so they can dwell in their Land (last verse of Daniel). I'm in my 70's, just waiting to go into the Father's House. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shilohsfoal Posted September 2, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 153 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 5,881 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 330 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/22/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted September 2, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, Diaste said: Many won't get through the GT, because they die a physical death before it's over. Some will make it to the end as there must be those who are alive and remain. There is zero evidence of a gathering pre 70th week, or even pre GT. Likely not. The timing for such ideas is missing and there is also misinterpretation. Yeah. Kinda sucks, doesn't it? I'm in my 60s. That means if I die before the arrival of the beast, the GT and the return of the King, I won't be resurrected until the 1000 year reign is over, to stand before judgement with the 2nd death hanging over my head. It's a sobering thought. I have inquired about this. Is this one group with several attributes, or anyone as long as they have at least one of the attributes? It's the latter for me. As long as one doesn't take the mark, worship the beast or it's image, and hold to the testimony of Christ, they are in the group seen in Rev 20. The only group seen in revelation 20:4 is Israel.That being the Israelis who don't worship the beast ,it's image or recieve it's mark.The remnant. Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. = Isaiah 14:2 Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And Israel will take possession of the nations and make them male and female servants in the LORD’s land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors. It doesn't mean no other nations will be in the Lord's land ,but it is Israel that reigns with Christ over the nations in the Lord's land. Edited September 2, 2023 by Shilohsfoal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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