Only Those Who Pass Through GT are Resurrected or Gathered.

[Diaste]

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Short version.


NO.  Because that isn't what is written  it is clear NOT THE BODY THAT SHALL BE. I know I answered this but for those who skip the long posts...just thought I would show it again
 

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Sure. 

 

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

There is no getting around that.  HOW I ABHOR the pre trib doctrine.  IT'S TENTACLES reach into AND CHANGE EVERYTHING....

Could you please stop with this? It feels accusatory. 

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

and IF THE DEAD/unsaved don't rise, then the Lord has NO ONE to rule and reign over FOR 1000 YEARS

UNLESS WE ALL go down into hell...to sit upon thrones...

AND CERTAINLY NO NEED FOR THE SAVED to be ruled over, what would be the point...

Um...huh?

 

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

Who could live 1000 years in a flesh and blood body?  What if someone was already 100, would they live to 1100???

You mean like Adam and Methuselah? Flesh and blood, over 900 years.

 

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 Which brings us to THE WHOLE WORLD DECEIVED time shortened or no flesh saved....

When Christ returns those who are alive and remain ARE CAUGHT UP to Him so they have to BE one who endured to the end because they are receiving their immortality...

 

On 9/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, DeighAnn said:

and when those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN are changed...then there are no more alive and remaining...unless that is to simple and needs a twist to make it say something else....
 

Believers. You're making a category mistake. The alive and remaining believers in Christ are taken up, not every flesh and blood vessel. 

[Revelation Man]

On 9/8/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

I just showed you the definite article is in the Greek text. 

 

And I just told you the Definite Article changes nothin per se, THE can still point to THE Great Church Age Tribulation, you nor I can mandate what is being spoken about, but we can (and should) follow the leads, and I did just that, no one from the 70th week can be raptured according to scriptures. 

If the Church Age Tribulation was great tribulation, and it was, then the definite article can point to that specific tribulation brother, notice John/God doesn't say the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, that men trying to infer that. WW2 was Great troubles right? WW1 was Great troubles, The Black Plague was Great troubles, all three valid descriptions of those events, but if I called them the Greatest Ever Troubles I would be describing them in error. Why do we so desire to limit God's use of vocabulary? Most of the time men seem to strain to prove points, lets just accept the facts, Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 prove no one from the 70th week is going to be raptured. As a matter of fact Jesus tells us when the 5 virgins miss the Wedding call the door will be shut, and they will be locked out of the wedding.

On 9/8/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

Jesus said the GT will be like nothing before and nothing after.

Why deny it?

Which is what you just did with Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 and no Jesus said no such thing, he said there would be a time of Greatest Ever Troubles, he did not say nothing else can be Great Troubles, nor can the word GREAT never be used to describe other troubles. You and others seem to think you can pigeonhole God's vocabulary. I for like 5 yeas have found it so odd that people actually can not understand the difference between GREAT..........and............GREATEST, that is two totally different meanings you do understand that right?

A Power Lifter lifts a LARGE amount of weights (500 pounds) this can be true, whilst another Power Lifter from a year before can have lifted the LARGEST EVER amount of pounds (lets say 700 I have no clue). So, the 500 pounds is still a large amount. You can not take words away from God and His prophets. We all know Great and Greatest Ever are not the same thing. 

But what we should do is divide the word in many places, that way mistakes do not happen near as often. Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 just destroys the debate in full, no one can be raptured during the 70th week unless Jesus is lying, and unless Rev. 20:4 is wrong. 

On 9/8/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

Incorrect. The 2nd resurrection isn't only a resurrection of judgement and death.

On 9/7/2023 at 2:43 PM, Revelation Man said:

Well, I did not cite the 2nd Resurrection, which comes 1000 years later, you alone did that above. There are TWO TYPES of resurrections, the Righteous in Christ and those Wicked in Satan. The Righteous Resurrection does not have to happen all at the same time, again you are trying to force God to see things your way, He sees TWO Resurrections, you can't mandate these two types have to all happen at two times, as a matter of fact we know the Pre Trib Rapture happens pre 70th week and then Rev. 20:4 happens 7 years later and are both the First Resurrection, just like a football game has two halves and a Baseball game has 9 innings. It always comes down to not being able to see the Rapture correctly doesn't it? 

On 9/8/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

The is no church age. It's all the church age. There is no dispensation of Grace. It's always been, and will only ever be, grace.

On 9/7/2023 at 2:43 PM, Revelation Man said:

Sure there is, that is not even debatable my friend. 

On 9/8/2023 at 3:51 AM, Diaste said:

Jesus said it was in the Gospels. 

Why deny it?

Jesus said GREATST.............not GREAT. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Revelation Man

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

1 Cor 15

the dead will be raised imperishable,

Literally saying the the DEAD will be raised.

and we will be changed. 

Saying the 'we' are changed, not put into a new vehicle but becoming into a new state from an old state. Like some one with a substance abuse problem, they stop abusing substances and leave that altered state becoming an unaltered state, not a new and different body and mind, just a better version of the same mind and body.

53For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Literally saying the DEAD will be made imperishable, the mortal made immortal.

54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,

enduo: I put on, clothe

Original Word: ἐνδύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: enduo
Phonetic Spelling: (en-doo'-o)
Definition: to clothe or be clothed with (in the sense of sinking into a garment)
Usage: I put on, clothe (another).

This shows the putting on of the garment of immortality and imperishability on the existing person not so clothed. It's not a body, it's a new wardrobe for the person, perfect and forever.

 

All the beliefs and explanations in the world can't change who JESUS TELLS US THEY ARE.  And He doesn't even change the WORD.



3588 [e]    Ὁ
ho    -    Art-NMS
1161 [e]    δὲ
de    But    Conj
2424 [e]    Ἰησοῦς
Iēsous    Jesus    N-NMS
3004 [e]    λέγει
legei    said    V-PIA-3S
846 [e]    αὐτῷ
autō    to him,    PPro-DM3S
190 [e]    Ἀκολούθει
Akolouthei    Follow    V-PMA-2S
1473 [e]    μοι,
moi    Me,    PPro-D1S
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
863 [e]    ἄφες
aphes    leave    V-AMA-2S
3588 [e]    τοὺς
tous    the    Art-AMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὺς
nekrous    dead    Adj-AMP
2290 [e]    θάψαι
thapsai    to bury    V-ANA
3588 [e]    τοὺς
tous    -    Art-AMP
1438 [e]    ἑαυτῶν
heautōn    their own    RefPro-GM3P
3498 [e]    νεκρούς.
nekrous    dead.    Adj-AMP

Who is raised when Christ returns? The living/never die/immortal returning with Him???  those no longer SUBJECT TO DEATH

or is it the VERY SAME SOULS Jesus Himself TOLD US

were "the dead" being buried by "the dead"?   

3754 [e]    ὅτι
hoti    because    Conj
846 [e]    αὐτὸς
autos    Himself    PPro-NM3S
3588 [e]    ὁ
ho    the    Art-NMS
2962 [e]    Κύριος
Kyrios    Lord    N-NMS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
2752 [e]    κελεύσματι,
keleusmati    a loud command,    N-DNS
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
5456 [e]    φωνῇ
phōnē    the voice    N-DFS
743 [e]    ἀρχαγγέλου
archangelou    of an archangel,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    with    Prep
4536 [e]    σάλπιγγι
salpingi    [the] trumpet    N-DFS
2316 [e]    Θεοῦ,
Theou    of God,    N-GMS
2597 [e]    καταβήσεται
katabēsetai    will descend    V-FIM-3S
575 [e]    ἀπ’
ap’    from    Prep
3772 [e]    οὐρανοῦ,
ouranou    heaven,    N-GMS
2532 [e]    καὶ
kai    and    Conj
3588 [e]    οἱ
hoi    the    Art-NMP
3498 [e]    νεκροὶ
nekroi    dead    Adj-NMP
1722 [e]    ἐν
en    in    Prep
5547 [e]    Χριστῷ
Christō    Christ    N-DMS
450 [e]    ἀναστήσονται
anastēsontai    will rise    V-FIM-3P
4412 [e]    πρῶτον,
prōton    first.    Adv-S

Either Jesus got it wrong, or man has got it wrong. 

EVERYONE KEEPS CLAIMING it is the 'bodies' for 'THE CHURCH' or 'the BODYLESS SOULS' returning FROM HEAVEN that are raised

yet it is WRITTEN AS A MASCULINE PLURAL group being "RAISING UP"

CHURCH is ALWAYS FEMININE  IF IT WAS 'THE BODIES' OF THE CHURCH IT WOULD AT THE VERY LEAST BE FEMININE

The choice is yours and it is with every soul who reads this. 

2nd witness would be

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." Acts 2:27 KJV 

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15

I believe my job here is done.  





... but thou hast delivered thy soul.  EZ

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

You mean like Adam and Methuselah? Flesh and blood, over 900 years.

but the body dies in the day, 1100 goes beyond.

 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Could you please stop with this? It feels accusatory. 

I will, and it is

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Believers. You're making a category mistake. The alive and remaining believers in Christ are taken up, not every flesh and blood vessel. 

Those who are 'caught up' receive IMMORTALITY.  Everyone else has to suffer the first death because if they don't, then they too would be alive and remaining. 
and if everyone was caught up without the wicked having suffered the first death,  then there would be evil people receiving immortality.

That is why everyone who has taken the mark has to suffer the first death.  Either by the sickle and going into the winepress, or the war and being eaten by birds, or the remnant by the sword, or as a tare gathered and burned, or by the plagues that kill 1/3 or the bowls of the wrath of God....whatever other method we are given that tells us if you aren't barren when He returns, you have been unfaithful.  

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by DeighAnn
possibly to just make it worse than it was before

[DeighAnn]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

aying the 'we' are changed, not put into a new vehicle but becoming into a new state from an old state. Like some one with a substance abuse problem, they stop abusing substances and leave that altered state becoming an unaltered state, not a new and different body and mind, just a better version of the same mind and body.

is the above not the opposite of 
 
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

THERE simply are 2 bodies.  One for here and one for there.

Strange flesh to us now, maybe not strange when we become equal with the angels....  
 

"For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off." Leviticus 17:14 KJV

"Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh." Deuteronomy 12:23 KJV


"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:9 KJV
 

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

 

34And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


"We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands." Mark 14:58 KJV


"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV


"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." 1 John 3:2 KJV

Colossians 3:3-4 - For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
 

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" John 11:25 KJV
 

[DeighAnn]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:35 AM, Diaste said:

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

Rev 20

 

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[garee]

On 9/4/2023 at 3:29 AM, Diaste said:

I didn't say anything about 'not rescuing' or 'not protecting'.

The point is who is gathered at the 2nd coming and who lives and reigns with Christ for 1000 years. It seems scripture is quite clear on that. 

What are your thoughts on Rev 7:13-14 and Rev 20:4-5?

I would offer from a Amil position .The white robes in that parable represent born again believers from all the nations of the world .

The Revelation 20 parable adds to the signified understanding of parables of chapter 7 . .  the kind of hermeneutic in the opening of the book verse 1 Christ both inspired and signified it . called it hidden manna (what is it?)  in 2:17  

In the Revelation 20 parable I would begin with verse three giving purpose context "he should deceive the nations no more"

Seeing Revelation is from the standpoint of the last day under the Sun it looks back to Genesis.  Genesis the foundation looked ahead the plagues written in Revelation the plagues spoken of are from all the generations under the Sun 

It becomes when did he fall what was the sign? the shim of circummsion.

I would ask?

How was he deceiving all the nations at the same time?. whatever it was it promises to return for a short while and again deceive all the nations of the world. 

Revelation 20: 3-6 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

In my search I believe I have found something worth looking at.  The restoring of the government of God(government of faith believing a unseen God. Reformation.   

Presently they were temporally under the government of men used as a parable for the time previous when Kings were in Israel.the abomination of desolation making desolate our one King of kings our father in heaven in exchange for a fleshly king  

The renting of the veil by God from the top (heavenward) to the bottom (earthward)  representing the flesh of the Son of man Jesus signified in another parable ass a figure of speech as our bloody husband Christ because of circumcision. 

When the veil was rent thier was no Jewish King of king sitting in the holy of holies ,Satan could no longer deceive all the nation God is a Jewish man as King of kings (a pagan foundation . . . out of sight out of mind as in who believes in a god not seen fairy tales  ? God calls them fools        

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Sure. 

The Gospel of John, 20th chapter, seems to show Jesus with first a noncorporeal body, then later with a corporeal body, including the nail holes and the wound in His side, after He ascended to our Father.

It doesn't look to me as though Jesus had some new body waiting for Him since He still bore the wounds of the Cross.

In any case it seems that when He appeared to Mary and said, “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ” 

And then a week later,

"Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.”

 Thomas was encouraged to touch Jesus, that there was a change in Jesus bodily nature, but still retaining the scars of crucifixion. 

The problem I see with your position on Rev 6:11 and the 5th seal martyrs is you are equating didómi with periballó. The first is like an award, a bestowing, the second is to "cast around, wrap a garment about, put on, I put on to myself, clothe myself, dress; "

In Rev 6:11 they martyrs aren't wearing the robes, they were awarded the robes, hence the term didómi

In Rev 7:13 it is said of the group they, "are arrayed in white robes?" These are dressed as periballó denotes, not just in possession, but wearing. In Rev 6:11 they have only been awarded the robes and it is not said they are wearing them.

Could the 5th seal martyrs of Rev 6:11 be wearing white robes as you suggest? Therefore proving your point that these are whole new bodies unconnected with the flesh that died on earth? Because of course if they are wearing white robes they must have bodies, yes? Of course that's possible.

The problem is Rev 6, the whole chapter, doesn't say that, anywhere. The other issue is God is precise in prophetic language. He doesn't say one thing and mean another in prophetic utterance. He used didomi because that's the very idea He needed to convey. He used periballo as that was the correct idea at that point in the prophecy; and they do not mean the same thing.

So it's like adding to a definition meaning that it doesn't carry in the normal, explicit, everyday reading. You shouldn't do that. None of us should do that. 

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And I just told you the Definite Article changes nothin per se, THE can still point to THE Great Church Age Tribulation, you nor I can mandate what is being spoken about, but we can (and should) follow the leads, and I did just that, no one from the 70th week can be raptured according to scriptures. 

Except it cannot. The reference in Rev 7:13-14 is to the very thing Jesus said in Matt 24:15-22 and in Mark 13:14-20, and it only begins after the A of D, which A of D is the midpoint of the final week. So no, the great tribulation cannot refer to 2000 years but must refer to the period of time after the A of D, in the last week, the duration of which is truncated from the end of the week.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

If the Church Age Tribulation was great tribulation, and it was, then the definite article can point to that specific tribulation brother, notice John/God doesn't say the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES, that men trying to infer that. WW2 was Great troubles right? WW1 was Great troubles, The Black Plague was Great troubles, all thee valid descriptions of those events, but if I called them the Greatest Ever Troubles I would be describing them in error. Why do we so desire to limit God's use of vocabulary? Most of the time men seen to strain to prove points, lets just accept the facts, Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 prove no one from the 70th week is going to be raptured. As a matter of fact Jesus tells us when the 5 virgins muss the Wedding call the door will be shut, and they will be locked out of the wedding.

Honestly, the pretrib doctrine should be called, "The Great Misinterpretation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to now, nor ever will be again".

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Which is what you just did with Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 and no Jess said no such thing, he said there would be a time of Greatest Ever Troubles, he did not so nothing else can be Great Troubles, nor can the word GREAT never be used to describe other troubles. You and other seem to think you can pigeonhole God's vocabulary. I for like 5 yeas have found it so odd that people actually can not understand the difference between GREAT..........and............GREATEST, that is two totally different meanings you do understand that right.

Dude. When Jesus says, " 21For at that time there will be great tribulation,"

Then goes on immediately after defining and describing the nature of that great tribulation saying," unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." it's a time that never has been, in any capacity or quantity, which the world itself has never seen. 

Clearly Jesus also thought that wasn't going to be enough for the pretrib misinterpreters so He also said, "If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved." So it's so bad all flesh might be dead and no one would be saved!

With those qualifying statement defining 'THE great tribulation' any reasonable mind would conclude it's the worst, greatest crisis ever, without equal before or after.

 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But what we should do is divide the word in many places, that way mistakes do not happen near as often. Seal #5 and Rev. 20:4 just destroys the debate in full, no one can be raptured during the 70th week unless Jesus is lying, and unless Rev. 20:4 is wrong. 

Rev 20:4-5 demands the living reigning with Christ for 1000 years have as life accomplishments staring down the power and authority of the beast and not flinching. 

That isn't pretrib anything.

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well, I did not cite the 2nd Resurrection, which comes 1000 years later, you alone did that above. There are TWO TYPES of resurrections, the Righteous in Christ and those Wicked in Satan. The Righteous does not have t happen all at the same time, again you are trying to force God to see things your way, He sees TWO Resurrection, you can't mandate these two types have to all happen at two times, as a matter of fact we know the Pre Trib Rapture happens pre 70th week and then Rev. 20:4 happens 7 years later and are both the First Resurrection, just like av football game has two halves and a Baseball game has 9 innings. It always comes down tom not being able to see the Rapture correctly doesn't it? 

You need to amend the above.

 

20 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Sure there is, that is not even debatable my friend. 

Jesus said GREATST.............not GREAT. 

 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

is the above not the opposite of 
 
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

It's an analogy, not a factual statement. Paul isn't saying the grain which sprouted from the seed is wholly different, it's matured, reaching the full potential from what was already contained within the seed, which cannot be reached without nurturing and growth over a period of time.

A famer doesn't sow corn and harvest oats, or sow wheat and harvest flax. A farmer harvests the mature crop from the seed. 

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Exactly.

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

THERE simply are 2 bodies.  One for here and one for there.

If you notice, Paul is saying the same body is raised. The change in the body that was sown into the earth happens when the very same body is raised. The very body sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness and in the natural is what is changed when raised. 

It is sown, it is raised. Same body. The difference is only that the body is raised from the grave, not two bodies.