Word of Faith Theology and the New Apostolic Reformation

[Mr. M]

"The Word of Faith or Word-Faith Movement is neither an organization nor a denomination. This movement traces its roots from the “positive confessions” and New Thought teachings of E.W Kenyon who is said to be the originator of the movement. However Kenneth Hagin is said to be the “father” of the Word-Faith Movement because he was responsible for popularizing Kenyon’s theology and teachings since the late 20th century."

Truth, or Consequences?

Any insights to share about this theology, or this website?

https://www.inspiredwalk.com/5777/what-is-the-word-of-faith-movement

https://www.inspiredwalk.com/7474/what-is-the-new-apostolic-reformation

Edited September 13, 2023 by Mr. M

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

The so called “New Apostolic Reformation” is bogus for the most part.  The “Apostles” we have today are simply ones who are sent by God to plant churches or to perform some other assignment the Lord has given them.  Today’s Apostles do NOT bring forth new revelation that is equal with God’s canon as He did with the Apostles He used to write the New Testament.  And, today’s Apostles are not in authority over believers as the original Apostles were.  So yes we have Apostles today, but not like the original Apostles.   

Concerning the words of our mouth... I think it's odd that people get all bent out of shape if someone says God's promises out loud as though doing so is some sort of cult.  There are things the Lord says in His Word about me as a believer... that HE says... and saying what He says about me out loud is of great benefit to renewing the mind.  Jesus dispatched satan when being tempted by the devil be saying God's Word out loud (Matthew 4:1-11) 

To make the blanket statement that what we say out of our mouth is of no importance is absolutely false according to what God's Word teaches and this is what many do as their reaction to the extremes of some of these popular preachers.  Most of these WOF preachers teach once saved always saved which is error too... but they typically get a pass for this since OSAS is widespread error being taught these days which is an ongoing stumbling block to believers. 

Have these so called "WOF" preachers gone beyond what is written over in to error?  Yes they have!  Many other sects have too such as calvinists, reformed theology, catholics, mormans, jahovah's witnesses, etc. so there’s lots of error going around.  I find it funny that the some of the OSAS people claim the WOF people are not saved because they don’t like their doctrine... apparently OSAS only applies to those that  agree with them!

Sure the so called "WOF" preachers have placed a greater emphasis on money than they should many of them believe gain is godliness which is in error (1 Timothy 6:5-12)... and without studying the scriptures, the knee jerk reaction by many is to believe we should not even talk about money, nobody should have much money all of which is in error.  God's Word has a lot to say about money, how to handle it properly, not be flashy or prideful with it, also warning us that this world's wealth comes with trials and temptations... but that does not mean Christians should not have money as some suppose. 

I’ll post a write up below that has some good points in it including scripture references showing that what we say is very highly important.  
 

Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

James 3:2-10
For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (it can be tamed by walking in the Spirit – see Romans 8)
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

 

Matthew 12:33-37

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

Proverbs 6:2

Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.

*Talking in opposition to what the Lord says about us is an open door to the devil that gives him the legal right to bring forth evil in one’s life.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Stan Murff

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Proverbs 13:2
A man shall eat good by the fruit of his mouth: but the soul of the transgressors shall eat violence.

Speech can contributes to success or to failure. Good words bring blessing and favor. Wicked words bring pain and destruction. Your mouth has much potential for good or evil in business or relationships. If you think you can talk any way you wish, you are going down, soon.

What a simple way to advance! What an easy rule for success! God inspired Solomon to tell you a secret about life – gracious words will get you ahead; cruel or foolish speech will bring your ruin. You can change your life for the better today by ruling your tongue. 

How did Joseph go from prison to throne? By speech that showed his excellent spirit (Gen 41:38-45). How did David get promoted from sheepfold to the king’s favorite? By gracious speech (I Sam 18:1-5). How did Daniel rule in Babylon with many kings? By an excellent spirit and speech (Dan 6:1-3). The rule is easy – gracious speech will win even kings (Pr 22:11). If no one has recently commended your speech, you need the proverb. 

Your speech can bring good to your life, or it can bring violence. God and good men love those who speak well, but they despise those who speak wickedly. What do your words produce in the lives of others? Because that is what you receive. “Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof” (Pr 18:21). Speech is that important – death or life! Use it or abuse it to your profit or punishment. 

Your mouth is not your own, no matter what your deceitful heart says (Ps 12:4). God created the ability of speech, and He gave you your mouth, and He expects you to obey His rules regarding conversation. He knows every word that you speak as well as every word that you hold back. You will be accountable now and later (Matt 12:36-37). 

The proverb has many figures of speech. Eating good is God’s blessings and the praise of men. It is earned by fruit of your mouth, which is gracious and wise speech. In opposite contrast are verbal transgressors, who speak harshly and foolishly. They will eat violence, for both God and men will punish them. What is the lesson? An easy way to grow in favor with God and men is to improve your speech (Pr 3:4; I Sam 2:26; Luke 2:52). 

Your speech will bring either good or violence to your soul and your life (Pr 12:14; 13:3; 18:20). Good words earn the blessings and favor of God and good men (Pr 15:23; 22:11; 24:26), for good words prove a good heart (Matt 12:34-37; Jas 3:8-12). Evil speech incurs the wrath and judgment of God and men (Pr 18:6; 22:10; Ps 52:1-5; 140:11), for evil speech proves a contrary and wicked heart (Matt 12:34-37; Jas 3:8-12). 

Consider eight kinds of speech. A godly man never spreads damaging reports about others, slanders them, or backbites. Charity and mercy are in his mouth (Pr 17:9; 31:26; Ec 10:12). But a wicked man sins against others by backbiting, slander, talebearing, and whispering, all of which God and good men hate (Pr 6:16-19; 10:18; 16:28; 25:23). 

A noble man always respects authority, giving honor where honor is due, and a godly woman always reverences her husband, even calling him lord (Rom 13:7; Eph 5:33; I Pet 2:17; 3:6). But an evil man boldly criticizes rulers and rails on them, like a brute and ignorant beast, whom the Bible says should be destroyed (Jude 1:8-10; II Pet 2:10-12). 

A virtuous man is grave and sober, knowing life is important; he only speaks to edify others, and he avoids idle words (Pr 17:27; 29:11; Mat 12:36-37). But a wicked man chatters, talks foolishly and filthily, and jests; God ranks this kind of speech with fornication, and He is coming in judgment because of it (Pr 10:10; 26:18-19; Ep 5:3-6). 

A godly man is a peacemaker: he speaks to comfort and soothe; he uses soft answers to turn away wrath; he never scorns (Pr 15:1; 25:15; 31:26). But an evil man uses harsh and proud words that provoke anger; he reviles men with names; he sarcastically cuts with words; and such women are nagging wives (Pr 12:18; 21:19; 26:21; 27:15; Matt 5:21-22).  

A righteous man loves the truth and always speaks the truth, no matter what the cost might be; he is a faithful witness in all matters; he does not exaggerate (Pr 12:17; 13:5; 14:5,25). But a wicked man has deceit in his heart and tongue; he is not afraid to falsely accuse or lie; and he will spend eternity in hell (Pr 6:16-19; 12:19; 19:5,9; Rev 21:8). 

A virtuous man is thankful for everything, giving glory to God for all things; he knows he is not worthy of any blessings, so he rejoices in even small kindnesses (Eph 5:20; Col 3:17; I Thes 5:18). But an evil man complains, murmurs, and whines; he only sees the negative; and he loves to criticize (Num 11:1-35; Deut 28:47-48; Jude 1:15-16). 

A godly man is humble, meek, and modest; he never praises himself, not even indirectly; he only boasts of God, and he puts others first (Pr 25:27; 27:2; Ps 34:1-3; Phil 2:3-4). But a wicked man loves to talk about himself and commend himself; he will boast, and he will arrogantly put others down; he is proud in speech (Pr 8:13; 14:3; I Sam 2:3; Ps 10:3). 

A gracious man is friendly, gentle, and kind; he is warm and encouraging; he is selfless and genuinely concerned about others (Pr 11:16; 16:24; 22:11; Ec 10:12; Luke 4:22). But an evil man is abrupt, arrogant, cruel, and harsh; he is selfish and begrudges others; he is loud, opinionated, and rude; he is crass and unconventional (Pr 12:18; Ec 10:12-14).  

Bless yourself with goodness! Choose the good life! Stop evil talking: it is that simple (Ps 34:12-13). Read it, and believe it. “For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile” (I Pet 3:10). 

Fill your mouth with praise and thanksgiving (Ps 34:1). Speak often to others about the Lord: He will write you in His special book (Mal 3:16). Let your speech be always gracious and always edifying – building others up (Eph 4:29; Col 4:6). You will have a good life and save yourself from violent punishment. Improve your speech today.


 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Stan Murff

[TheBlade]

The song "breaking your heart" was just said before I typed this. I read your post and its this deep pain this hurt I can't explain. See I know them very well. So here I am say it to me. I was many years ago in a forum when Oral Roberts was still alive. They were so many believers going on and on about something he had just said. The 1st thing I noticed was Roberts was not there to answer back or defend himself. So me being no one talked to the man himself. See if GOD is in it He will open all the doors. Anyone of those 10's 100's believers could have asked him. So what he told me was nothing at all like they were going on about. It's like hearing about "little gods". So I watched the full videos without any preconceived thoughts or ides. I then again me being no one asked them. Like before it was nothing at all like most were going on about. 

Take Hagin. Go search watch those "exposed" videos. Granted all of them for some reason only show tiny short clips..ok. All those other "tiny" clips of him saying "if I get it wrong tell me I will repent and get it right". Now what you will never find in 60+ years is him talking about other minsters and believers like they talked about him. Take Osteen you know the one they make fun of for washed down or something like that. Did you know the man before he was ever the lead preacher sold and bought land and became very rich? I can't be the only one that saw all those documents. I won't touch what he has for so many years done given to the poor that no one here has ever done. 

Take Copeland you know that house and everything else. We here in Colorado had a huge fire the whole nation new about. Well after we get this call "This is Copeland Ministries. What do you need? What ever is it you tell us no matter what it is we will get it to you". 1st no other person Christian group no one call us or those around us just them. But how did they get our number? We were not giving to them. So I went looking more into this. Oh I knew them and what the loving family of God (WE LOVE YOU JESUS WERE THE REAL CHILDREN) said about them. So I went seeking and its one of those things you NEVER read about even on the LINK the OP gave. Why leave out how in fires, floods, earthquakes, tornados you name it then over seas they take TRUCK LOADS of things to help. Nope they never post about it.  A preacher thinking like some of you and how GOD has seem to NOT judged these "false fake teacher". Christ said to him since he asked in love not judging really from his heart wanted to know Christ said "Oh but do you know all the good they do for me".

So I could go on and on. But the kicker here is and you started this not me so lets have some righteous speech. You love Jesus Christ you know He does not look at your sin. You know you KNOW He will always forgive you no matter what you do. You being the light of Christ who created all have Him living in you who is always looking at the good you do. How can the light see sin faults when He said love does not see faults. See I asked this grandmother who prayed 4 hours a day. Oh man they had more power of GOD then anyone I have ever seen. But you always saw the love. So I asked her back in 1977-78 about Copeland. This is all she would say "I listen to him I just don't agree with all he teaches". That love is not shared here. I was thinking about Christian forums and I will not do not lie. I was not thinking about just one. And this word He said shocked me because I am on those forums "vipers". We will always say "yeap I know them" me? My first thought was what? Yet I could be one.. how do I change.

Mr M this hurt allot. You know not what you talk about nor does some site you list that I have never heard of. I look at all of them that site you listed and look for the GOOD they do. I looked at each one years ago to make sure they said and believed "Jesus Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin. Was buried and rose the 3rd day and is seated at the right hand of the Father the only way to the Father". Now if I think one of them is in error I don't go sharing that I go to them asking them  about it. Then I like always if ANYONE is stuck in sin or has some error in teaching that does not effect the Gospel as in John 3:16 I pray for them. I treat them as I would want to be treated. You doubt so many things.. I could call so many there "false teachers fake" based on the same things. Yet I don't I look for the good I just disagree. 

Doing this touches the sweet sweet holy Spirit and I would and have SO MANY TIMES done this same thing for Billy Graham, John MacArthur on and on. I boast in the fact I am not like most. I sin more the most but... ask Him to show you people through His eyes. I at 15 along home one day on my knees haha.. gotta keep that up. But asked "show me how to me more like you". In that bible study where a grandmother that prayed 4h a day one night just as we were praising the lord said "Danny I don't know what this means but the lord said "I will show you what you have to do"". Been around this all my life fact some have great fruit yet seems they also have allot of sin? I found were all the same ...we all need Him and if one no matter who is its.. I HAVE will still do.. I will get down and even dirty.. I will not be like those "goody goody Christains". See Christ never in every time I fall sin miss it hurt Him hurt others.. He always forgave always told me how righteous I was. Just makes me cry now.. I just say forgive me first change me. I will help them. Those you fall fake false have works and fruits I just disagree with some things they teach and then always praying FOR THEM...not allowing the enemy to EVER have one of my family. 

I best go or like every other time I will just delete this. The choice one what to see how to act.. is look at Christ 1st. See the good in others if He always shows you mercy and grace and forgiveness. Then do the same. Not asking you to follow them or even like but HE GOD found them and how we treat others is how we treat Him. DON'T believe a word I say.. if you ask HIM from your heart not knowing anything ...ask HIM He will show you. But He does not play games. If you go in this knowing they are wrong evil ...He will say nothing. So so sorry but your truth their truth is not the real truth. LOVE.. I am so sorry but.. I don't think anyone will  care but.. ask Him.. this one hurt me. Say to me.. I am here all the time. If you say it to them say tell me I am false fake not of God

[Mr. M]

11 hours ago, TheBlade said:

Mr M this hurt allot. You know not what you talk about nor does some site you list that I have never heard of.

I didn't have anything to say on this, so I won't be taking anything that you have said personally. My only concern is how anyone presents the Word of God, not how rich they are, not how popular they are, or what they do with all that money. God has given all judgment to His Son, He will decide.

Thanks for sharing, I read every word. You are sometimes difficult to follow and understand, but I did feel that you conveyed much emotion over this. All I will say on the matter is that I do not believe that the apostolic doctrine tells me what I am in Christ, and all I have to do is believe and receive. My faith, if you even care, is that we are taught The Way, and The Truth, and The Life that we are to live during our time on earth, that is pleasing to the Father, as His Son always pleased Him, which is in righteousness and holiness.

I believe we will be judged by a higher standard than that required by the Law of Moses. I find that it is abundantly clear that the forgiveness of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ is never, ever a  license to sin, and we cannot take a casual, "God knows my heart" (O yes He does, you better believe that) and I will try harder next time. We must refrain from passing judgment on one another, for the measure we use will be used against us.

When I say that I repent and confess my faults daily, it is because I am bothered every time I think a thought about someone else, and realize by the Spirit that is not His thoughts, and I am convicted. I do not think that makes me a sinner, or living a life of sin. I think that I am just a man striving to be holy, even as He is holy. Correct me if that is not taught in the Word.

I believe that my life must be dedicated to bringing glory to the Son by living the life of a bondservant. I am not sure how you would define that, but a good word is slave. I only possess what I absolutely need because I want to avoid being possessed by possessions. I have not owned a car since 1980. Everything I have I can put in a large suitcase, a small carry on bag, and a backpack. My desire is that if the Lord says go here, I do not say, Lord, first let me take care of this or that.

I do not in any way think that anyone else should follow my example. They should follow Christ. What I know is that I hear the Voice of the Spirit every day, because that is what I do, I listen. You can go to my profile page, select my activity, select topics, and double right arrow over to the very first thread I ever posted, and all you will find is a short Bible study that came out of my own personal devotions that day, at that hour. No commentaries, no theology, no writings of the church fathers, no popular preachers, no devotionals by others. Feel free to judge me on that, for I am accountable for every word.

I used to avoid my own words entirely, posting only the scriptures that were reviewed in the course of the study, while using bold print to highlight connections from one verse to another. I got nothing but grief from this, comments to the tune of "you posted some scriptures but you don't say what they mean, what's your point? This has proven time and again to be complete hypocrisy, as these persons were just looking for something to find fault in, debate, and criticize.

Why ask me what the scriptures are trying to convey, that is the role of the Holy Spirit. Am I the Lord? The criticism is most always ill founded and inappropriate, and I have come to accept that is the way of these forums, and I don't post for them. I post for the hundreds of guests who come on line and read the lessons. I don't need anyone's thumbs up. Often this is a backhanded insult anyway. If you ever want to actually discuss apostolic and Holy Spirit filled teaching without any emotional baggage, maybe start with something like this:

Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying...

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

I would consider this sound doctrine, how about you? Do you believe that we are expected to live in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life? Or is that works based salvation? Or maybe you would prefer what I have heard many many times before: "just trust Jesus and when you die you will go to heaven". No need to be concerned with how you lived your life, Jesus accomplished everything at the Cross, so there is nothing for us to do.  I did not just make that up. That is standard "altar call, sinners prayer" material. So maybe show some emotion over that handling of God's Word of Grace, Truth and Life.

Jesus said that those who would be greatest, would humble themselves to be the least, and a servant of all. Have I taken anything from you? Have I asked anything from you? Go then, sow into the Kingdom, give your money away to the famous ones that you defend. They obviously have justified themselves by their charity work. Then again, so has Bill Gates.

I wish you the best. Now you can comment on something that I actually said. As to the links I provided, they were from just one of dozens that attack these media driven ministries, not for their wealth, or how they manage it, but for how they teach and preach the Gospel. All I did was solicit input from the forum. Thanks again for yours. For review, this is what I posted, in regards to my own words.

16 hours ago, Mr. M said:

Truth, or Consequences?

Any insights to share about this theology, or this website?

So yes, I do know what I am talking about, and what I have and have not said.

Back to you Blade.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mr. M
Paragraphs

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

Quote

-------- He does not look at your sin

That's not true.  If one sins, the Lord is well aware of it and if one does not repent them they are in grave danger of being lost.

 

Quote

-------- You know you KNOW He will always forgive you no matter what you do.

ONLY if one confesses and forsakes their sin will they have mercy.

Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

I didn't have anything to say on this, so I won't be taking anything that you have said personally. My only concern is how anyone presents the Word of God, not how rich they are, not how popular they are, or what they do with all that money. God has given all judgment to His Son, He will decide. Thanks for sharing, I read every word. You are sometimes difficult to follow and understand, but I did feel that you conveyed much emotion over this. All I will say on the matter is that I do not believe that the apostolic doctrine tells me what I am in Christ, and all I have to do is believe and receive. My faith, if you even care, is that we are taught The Way, and The Truth, and The Life that we are to live during our time on earth, that is pleasing to the Father, as His Son always pleased Him, which is in righteousness and holiness. I believe we will be judged by a higher standard than that required by the Law of Moses. I find that it is abundantly clear that the forgiveness of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ is never, ever a  license to sin, and we cannot take a casual, "God knows my heart" (O yes He does, you better believe that) and I will try harder next time. We must refrain from passing judgment on one another, for the measure we use will be used against us. When I say that I repent and confess my faults daily, it is because I am bothered every time I think a thought about someone else, and realize by the Spirit that is not His thoughts, and I am convicted. I do not think that makes me a sinner, or living a life of sin. I think that I am just a man striving to be holy, even as He is holy. Correct me if that is not taught in the Word. I believe that my life must be dedicated to bringing glory to the Son by living the life of a bondservant. I am not sure how you would define that, but a good word is slave. I only possess what I absolutely need because I want to avoid being possessed by possessions. I have not owned a car since 1980. Everything I have I can put in a large suitcase, a small carry on bag, and a backpack. My desire is that if the Lord says go here, I do not say, Lord, first let me take care of this or that. I do not in any way think that anyone else should follow my example. They should follow Christ. What I know is that I hear the Voice of the Spirit every day, because that is what I do, I listen. You can go to my profile page, select my activity, select topics, and double right arrow over to the very first thread I ever posted, and all you will find is a short Bible study that came out of my own personal devotions that day, at that hour. No commentaries, no theology, no writings of the church fathers, no popular preachers, no devotionals by others. Feel free to judge me on that, for I am accountable for every word. I used to avoid my own words entirely, posting only the scriptures that were reviewed in the course of the study, while using bold print to highlight connections from one verse to another. I got nothing but grief from this, comments to the tune of "you posted some scriptures but you don't say what they mean, what's your point? This has proven time and again to be complete hypocrisy, as these persons were just looking for something to find fault in, debate, and criticize. Why ask me what the scriptures are trying to convey, that is the role of the Holy Spirit. Am I the Lord? The criticism is most always ill founded and inappropriate, and I have come to accept that is the way of these forums, and I don't post for them. I post for the hundreds of guests who come on line and read the lessons. I don't need anyone's thumbs up. Often this is a backhanded insult anyway. If you ever want to actually discuss apostolic and Holy Spirit filled teaching without any emotional baggage, maybe start with something that says something like this:

Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying...

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

I would consider this sound doctrine, how about you? Do you believe that we are expected to live in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life? Or is that works based salvation? Or maybe you would prefer what I have heard many many times before: "just trust Jesus and when you die you will go to heaven". No need to be concerned with how you lived your life, Jesus accomplished everything at the Cross, so there is nothing for us to do.  I did not just make that up. That is standard "altar call, sinners prayer" material. So maybe show some emotion over that handling of God's Word of Grace, Truth and Life. Jesus said that those who would be greatest, would humble themselves to be the least, and a servant of all. Have I taken anything from you? Have I asked anything from you? Go then, sow into the Kingdom, give your money away to the famous ones that you defend. They obviously have justified themselves by their charity work. Then again, so has Bill Gates. I wish you the best. Now you can comment on something that I actually said. As to the links I provided, they were from just one of dozens that attack these media driven ministries, not for their wealth, or how they manage it, but for how they teach and preach the Gospel. All I did was solicit input from the forum. Thanks again for yours. For review, this is what I posted, in regards to my own words.

So yes, I do know what I am talking about, and what I have and have not said.

Back to you Blade.

You should check out that new invention that call . . . . Paragraphs

The help others to be able to read what you write and is polite and proper!
 

2 hours ago, Mr. M said:

comment on something that I actually said. As to the links I provided, they were from just one of dozens that attack these media driven ministries, not for their wealth, or how they manage it, but for how they teach and preach the Gospel.

Their biggest error is teaching once saved always saved... but teaching that all out future sins are already forgiven, their followers can justify living how ever they so desire whether it's pleasing unto, the Lord or not.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Stan Murff

[SavedOnebyGrace]

3 hours ago, Mr. M said:

I didn't have anything to say on this, so I won't be taking anything that you have said personally. My only concern is how anyone presents the Word of God, not how rich they are, not how popular they are, or what they do with all that money. God has given all judgment to His Son, He will decide.

Thanks for sharing, I read every word. You are sometimes difficult to follow and understand, but I did feel that you conveyed much emotion over this. All I will say on the matter is that I do not believe that the apostolic doctrine tells me what I am in Christ, and all I have to do is believe and receive. My faith, if you even care, is that we are taught The Way, and The Truth, and The Life that we are to live during our time on earth, that is pleasing to the Father, as His Son always pleased Him, which is in righteousness and holiness.

I believe we will be judged by a higher standard than that required by the Law of Moses. I find that it is abundantly clear that the forgiveness of sin by the blood of Jesus Christ is never, ever a  license to sin, and we cannot take a casual, "God knows my heart" (O yes He does, you better believe that) and I will try harder next time. We must refrain from passing judgment on one another, for the measure we use will be used against us.

When I say that I repent and confess my faults daily, it is because I am bothered every time I think a thought about someone else, and realize by the Spirit that is not His thoughts, and I am convicted. I do not think that makes me a sinner, or living a life of sin. I think that I am just a man striving to be holy, even as He is holy. Correct me if that is not taught in the Word.

I believe that my life must be dedicated to bringing glory to the Son by living the life of a bondservant. I am not sure how you would define that, but a good word is slave. I only possess what I absolutely need because I want to avoid being possessed by possessions. I have not owned a car since 1980. Everything I have I can put in a large suitcase, a small carry on bag, and a backpack. My desire is that if the Lord says go here, I do not say, Lord, first let me take care of this or that.

I do not in any way think that anyone else should follow my example. They should follow Christ. What I know is that I hear the Voice of the Spirit every day, because that is what I do, I listen. You can go to my profile page, select my activity, select topics, and double right arrow over to the very first thread I ever posted, and all you will find is a short Bible study that came out of my own personal devotions that day, at that hour. No commentaries, no theology, no writings of the church fathers, no popular preachers, no devotionals by others. Feel free to judge me on that, for I am accountable for every word.

I used to avoid my own words entirely, posting only the scriptures that were reviewed in the course of the study, while using bold print to highlight connections from one verse to another. I got nothing but grief from this, comments to the tune of "you posted some scriptures but you don't say what they mean, what's your point? This has proven time and again to be complete hypocrisy, as these persons were just looking for something to find fault in, debate, and criticize.

Why ask me what the scriptures are trying to convey, that is the role of the Holy Spirit. Am I the Lord? The criticism is most always ill founded and inappropriate, and I have come to accept that is the way of these forums, and I don't post for them. I post for the hundreds of guests who come on line and read the lessons. I don't need anyone's thumbs up. Often this is a backhanded insult anyway. If you ever want to actually discuss apostolic and Holy Spirit filled teaching without any emotional baggage, maybe start with something that says something like this:

Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying...

68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

I would consider this sound doctrine, how about you? Do you believe that we are expected to live in holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life? Or is that works based salvation? Or maybe you would prefer what I have heard many many times before: "just trust Jesus and when you die you will go to heaven". No need to be concerned with how you lived your life, Jesus accomplished everything at the Cross, so there is nothing for us to do.  I did not just make that up. That is standard "altar call, sinners prayer" material. So maybe show some emotion over that handling of God's Word of Grace, Truth and Life.

Jesus said that those who would be greatest, would humble themselves to be the least, and a servant of all. Have I taken anything from you? Have I asked anything from you? Go then, sow into the Kingdom, give your money away to the famous ones that you defend. They obviously have justified themselves by their charity work. Then again, so has Bill Gates.

I wish you the best. Now you can comment on something that I actually said. As to the links I provided, they were from just one of dozens that attack these media driven ministries, not for their wealth, or how they manage it, but for how they teach and preach the Gospel. All I did was solicit input from the forum. Thanks again for yours. For review, this is what I posted, in regards to my own words.

So yes, I do know what I am talking about, and what I have and have not said.

Back to you Blade.

Mr. M

This is a touchy subject for some. My wife and I were members of a "full Gospel" church following the teachings of: E. W. Kenyon, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, et al. The light turned on for us when watching "The John Ankerberg Show" regarding the influx of the "New Age Movement" into Christian Churches. Constance Cumby and Dave Hunt wrote books detailing what was happening and how this was anti-Christian and not biblical. I saw this happen first-hand in a church we were members of in St. Louis County. It's one of the reasons I've started warning people about yoga and TM. No good can come of this. Thanks Mr. M for starting this thread.

SObG

[Mr. M]

1 minute ago, SavedOnebyGrace said:

Mr. M

This is a touchy subject for some. My wife and I were members of a "full Gospel" church following the teachings of: E. W. Kenyon, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, et al. The light turned on for us when watching "The John Ankerberg Show" regarding the influx of the "New Age Movement" into Christian Churches. Constance Cumby and Dave Hunt wrote books detailing what was happening and how this was anti-Christian and not biblical. I saw this happen first-hand in a church we were members of in St. Louis County. It's one of the reasons I've started warning people about yoga and TM. No good can come of this. Thanks Mr. M for starting this thread.

SObG

Yes, it is always tricky to offer correction, that is why I tried to "stay out of the way" and let members react to the links and solicit input. This is very important, that we discern worldly wisdom by the scriptures and the Anointing on our fellowship. We have sound advice to follow, and can grow in maturity ourselves, even as we reach out to others.

Thank you for your encouraging response, and may we do our best not to offend, or come off as "holier than thou". Full disclosure, I came out of a world of darkness back to the light. Eastern mysticism and martial arts, Carlos Castaneda, Tao of physics, native american shamanism, you name it, I dabbled in it.

After returning to the Lord, one night the Holy Spirit reminded me of my Catholic Confirmation at age 12, and I vividly remembered my zeal for giving my life to Christ. He remained faithful even as I went off to serve in the Nuclear Navy, study physics, and all that jazz, punk, and roots rock reggae. haha. What a head case! What a prodigal! 

May we continue to fulfill the Law of Christ in the ministry of truth!

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual,

restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself,

lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

When I lived and worked in Los Angeles, a friend loaned me his copy of Carlos Castaneda's book which he wrote high on mushrooms, if I remember right. I think there were 4 books in the series. He was big into UFOs, or as they're now called, UAP's. He claimed to have seen one but I don't know if he was a credible eyewitness.

I went from Roman Catholic, to Seeker, to Agnostic, to Charismatic, to Christian. I went through my books in the late '80s and got rid of all Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, E. W. Kenyon, Oral Roberts, and other books espousing "new age techniques". The pastor at my full-gospel church was getting into TM, visualizing your hands are Christ's hands when laying hands on the sick.

Keep up the good work Mr. M.