Is Your Church Serving Money

[bdavidc]

Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.    ~ Galatians 2:4-5

Both then and now, we have to be discerning about who teaches us. You’re not saved if you don’t take your salvation seriously. Those who understand God’s word and read the Bible for themselves should be very discerning about the leaders in the church they’re attending. Supporting complacent and compromising leaders will lead you, your family, and the people you invite on the path to hell. They use clever and indirect methods to deceive (and may not even realize they are doing so) which is a trick of Satan. It’s only by knowing God and His word in the Bible that you’ll know if you’re being deceived.

Is Your Church Serving Money

Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. ~ Galatians 2:10

There is no doubt that this is not an isolated verse. There are numerous references to this in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is God’s people’s duty to remember the poor and to be eager to remember them.

Seems to me when trying to find a Church whose main goal is to serve Jesus Christ and teach the Bible it has been tough to find one that does not often talk about needing your money so they can build a nicer building. Plus they ask that it is beyond your regular giving. Also if someone in the Church needs help they take up a special offering beyond your regular giving for them. My Bible study seems to point out that people are more important than the building and seeking the lost is more important than the building. Often when they actually give something to help out missions or people they don’t give much (a couple hundred) which doesn’t buy much. Then they parade them in front of the Church to show how great helping them was. Very sad and not what I read in the Bible that we should do.

A church that loses its outward focus, as evidenced by where it spends its money, is showing signs of spiritual weakness. Church consultant and author Thom S. Rainer, in his book Autopsy of a Dead Church, states that one of the symptoms of a dying church is that the percentage of the budget for members’ needs keeps increasing, while the money earmarked for outreach decreases.

Read more

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

16 minutes ago, bdavidc said:

Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. ~ Galatians 2:10

A good question is.... do we blindly give to the poor?

If a poor person living on the street is a heroin addict and we give him money and he overdoes and dies.... which happens frequently these days... it would be obvious we cannot give to every poor person because it will damage some of them.

I used to blindly give to the poor until the Lord led me to not do that without spending a little time talking to them to witness to them.  If there's a hint of them being an alcoholic or on drugs then giving to them is most liking paying for their drugs which further damages them. 

Maybe the thing to do is just give to a ministry that helps poor folks and let them deal with it?

[farouk]

21 minutes ago, bdavidc said:

Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.    ~ Galatians 2:4-5

Both then and now, we have to be discerning about who teaches us. You’re not saved if you don’t take your salvation seriously. Those who understand God’s word and read the Bible for themselves should be very discerning about the leaders in the church they’re attending. Supporting complacent and compromising leaders will lead you, your family, and the people you invite on the path to hell. They use clever and indirect methods to deceive (and may not even realize they are doing so) which is a trick of Satan. It’s only by knowing God and His word in the Bible that you’ll know if you’re being deceived.

Is Your Church Serving Money

Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. ~ Galatians 2:10

There is no doubt that this is not an isolated verse. There are numerous references to this in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is God’s people’s duty to remember the poor and to be eager to remember them.

Seems to me when trying to find a Church whose main goal is to serve Jesus Christ and teach the Bible it has been tough to find one that does not often talk about needing your money so they can build a nicer building. Plus they ask that it is beyond your regular giving. Also if someone in the Church needs help they take up a special offering beyond your regular giving for them. My Bible study seems to point out that people are more important than the building and seeking the lost is more important than the building. Often when they actually give something to help out missions or people they don’t give much (a couple hundred) which doesn’t buy much. Then they parade them in front of the Church to show how great helping them was. Very sad and not what I read in the Bible that we should do.

A church that loses its outward focus, as evidenced by where it spends its money, is showing signs of spiritual weakness. Church consultant and author Thom S. Rainer, in his book Autopsy of a Dead Church, states that one of the symptoms of a dying church is that the percentage of the budget for members’ needs keeps increasing, while the money earmarked for outreach decreases.

Read more

@bdavidc Shows just how much we need to focus morally and spiritually on 'looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12.2), rather than to material things.

[bdavidc]

20 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

A good question is.... do we blindly give to the poor?

If a poor person living on the street is a heroin addict and we give him money and he overdoes and dies.... which happens frequently these days... it would be obvious we cannot give to every poor person because it will damage some of them.

I used to blindly give to the poor until the Lord led me to not do that without spending a little time talking to them to witness to them.  If there's a hint of them being an alcoholic or on drugs then giving to them is most liking paying for their drugs which further damages them. 

Maybe the thing to do is just give to a ministry that helps poor folks and let them deal with it?

I agree we should not blindly give to the poor. But that is not what I was getting at. It seems a lot of Churches spend the majority of the money they collect on themselves (huge Church buildings and feeding themselves)  and don't even help the people in their own Church who are less fortunate and need help. If they do say they help someone they do not give them much. They make giving a big deal very often and then spend it on themselves and not on what the Lord asks us to spend it on. Just the way I see it most of the time. 

I don't think I am the only one seeing this as many are leaving the Church buildings and gathering with other Christians on their own that want to do as the Bible teaches and give to others, not just to comfort themselves.

We all will answer to God for what WE did not for what others did and do. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by bdavidc
correction

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

21 hours ago, bdavidc said:

Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery— to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.    ~ Galatians 2:4-5

Both then and now, we have to be discerning about who teaches us. You’re not saved if you don’t take your salvation seriously. Those who understand God’s word and read the Bible for themselves should be very discerning about the leaders in the church they’re attending. Supporting complacent and compromising leaders will lead you, your family, and the people you invite on the path to hell. They use clever and indirect methods to deceive (and may not even realize they are doing so) which is a trick of Satan. It’s only by knowing God and His word in the Bible that you’ll know if you’re being deceived.

Is Your Church Serving Money

Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. ~ Galatians 2:10

There is no doubt that this is not an isolated verse. There are numerous references to this in the Bible, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is God’s people’s duty to remember the poor and to be eager to remember them.

Seems to me when trying to find a Church whose main goal is to serve Jesus Christ and teach the Bible it has been tough to find one that does not often talk about needing your money so they can build a nicer building. Plus they ask that it is beyond your regular giving. Also if someone in the Church needs help they take up a special offering beyond your regular giving for them. My Bible study seems to point out that people are more important than the building and seeking the lost is more important than the building. Often when they actually give something to help out missions or people they don’t give much (a couple hundred) which doesn’t buy much. Then they parade them in front of the Church to show how great helping them was. Very sad and not what I read in the Bible that we should do.

A church that loses its outward focus, as evidenced by where it spends its money, is showing signs of spiritual weakness. Church consultant and author Thom S. Rainer, in his book Autopsy of a Dead Church, states that one of the symptoms of a dying church is that the percentage of the budget for members’ needs keeps increasing, while the money earmarked for outreach decreases.

Read more

I definitely think most churches serve money. Sometimes it will be the rich people in a church that serve in leadership positions like an elders board. Sometimes a pastor will censor his sermons based on what the BIG donors want. But I think we should look at the buildings themselves. Churches that have state of the art sound systems and big ornate buildings, brand new carpet with giant heaters or air conditioners. Lavish sculptures and paintings. Joel Osteen spent almost 100 Million on his church in Houston. I don't know how much he actually serves his community ( I do know that his church brings in millions each week ) but I wonder how many of the poor ( which Houston has a large population of poverty ) could have been helped by those millions. Also, there is no possible way that a pastor who makes a 6 figure salary ( and some even make a 7 figure salary ) is serving God with his whole heart. MY OPINION is that a pastor should not receive a salary at all. The church can provide him with housing and transportation and food and clothing. What else does he need? You can't claim to be a servant if you are much better off than the people you are supposed to be serving. Maybe I'm being overly harsh or critical, but it seems to me that pastors and churches are simply not held accountable for how they operate, especially when it comes to money. 

[Big Boy Stan Murf]

We are supposed to be giving... to the household of faith first!

I went to a church back in the day and if someone needed financial help they would be required to "receive" counseling which meant they would have to open up their entire lives to allowing one of the pastors to tell them how to live.

That could be OK if the person needing help was in agreement and really needed help with the simple things concerning earning, saving, and spending money... but it became overbearing for some folks getting the church's "help" where their lives were being micromanaged and if they objected then they were told that they were being "unteachable" and resisting the Holy Ghost.

Yeah, on the church building thing... a lot of that is about keeping up with the joneses in that other churches have nice buildings so we have to catch up!  Church leaders think they are more successful if they have an ongoing building program to continually be expanding.

This is why I always used to do my giving in cash!  That way they couldn't track how much I was or wasn't giving... so they had no way to claim "you need to be giving more to the building program"!

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

20 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

A good question is.... do we blindly give to the poor?

Definitely. I see "supposed" homeless people that I can clearly see are in good shape and able bodied standing around my town with their signs. I also know that some of these people make MUCH MORE money doing that than I do working, and their money is tax free. Its odd because I firmly believe that good people created the homeless epidemic. Many people choose to be homeless knowing they can get free food, clothing, healthcare, and money, so why work and pay bills and taxes? I would say that 90% of homeless is by choice. I've met many homeless who simply choose not to work because they know people will give them money. There is an abundance of jobs in my state and in my town. The only reason someone doesn't work is by choice. We could actually cure homelessness by eliminating the tons of free handouts that we give and if people STOPPED handing the guy on the corner with a sign money. It's really the generosity of others that has created this issue. 

[JimmyB]

30 minutes ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

Definitely. I see "supposed" homeless people that I can clearly see are in good shape and able bodied standing around my town with their signs. I also know that some of these people make MUCH MORE money doing that than I do working, and their money is tax free. Its odd because I firmly believe that good people created the homeless epidemic. Many people choose to be homeless knowing they can get free food, clothing, healthcare, and money, so why work and pay bills and taxes? I would say that 90% of homeless is by choice. I've met many homeless who simply choose not to work because they know people will give them money. There is an abundance of jobs in my state and in my town. The only reason someone doesn't work is by choice. We could actually cure homelessness by eliminating the tons of free handouts that we give and if people STOPPED handing the guy on the corner with a sign money. It's really the generosity of others that has created this issue. 

Clearly you don't understand what it's like to be homeless>  Try living outside for extended periods of time, not sure where your next meal is going to come from, and you might have a different attitude.

Do you seriously believe that "some of these people make MUCH MORE money doing that than I do working"?  What do you do for a living?

Nobody chooses to be homeless!  I have no idea where you came up with that but it's simply not true.  Not having a roof over your head and not knowing where your next meal is coming from is not a lifestyle that anyone chooses!  If you are so envious of them, why not become homeless yourself?  Good shelter, good food, no taxes, good health care, etc!

People work and have homes because they need money to survive and want shelter from the weather.  If you're so envious, why not become homeless and live the life you suppose they live?

Saying that the only reason someone doesn't work is by choice is simply wrong.  Would you hire someone with no skills, no training, little to no education, etc? 

You make it sound like being homeless is almost paradise! If you truly it is, why not join them?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, JimmyB said:

Nobody chooses to be homeless!  I have no idea where you came up with that but it's simply not true.  Not having a roof over your head and not knowing where your next meal is coming from is not a lifestyle that anyone chooses!  If you are so envious of them, why not become homeless yourself?  Good shelter, good food, no taxes, good health care, etc!

Have to disagree with you on this bro - I chose to be homeless for a few years between the ages of 18 and 23.  I thought it would be a big party!  And I knew many others who were of that same ilk. Eventually I came to my senses, went to school, got a job, etc.  Of course, the Lord transforming me from the inside had much to do with that too!

And this week I was in a city with a significant amount of homeless. That city chooses to give them a lot of handouts, with no questions asked.  It was obvious that the homeless were quite attracted to that.  (as I was, when I lived on the streets)

Previous to this week, I've been somewhat of two minds regarding the homeless situation.  One side of me wanted to come alongside each one and ask, "What happened?  How did you get here?" And then do what I could to get them off the street permanently and headed in a better direction.  But the other side of me knew the problem is only exacerbated by giving handouts - I think there are vast numbers who are enabled by that sort of feel-good welfare, and then they will just continue to live that way.  There's not much incentive for them to change.*

(*Regarding that last statement of many homeless not wanting to change, I've heard this from a number of people who interact with homeless folks: "I don't really want your help.  You see, I have little responsibility and I like it like that. So I know you mean well, but please leave me alone."  This also was my own thoughts & experience, when I was homeless.)

So after several discussions while visiting that city, my actions toward the homeless are now two-fold: 

1) I won't give money or handouts (in most cases & unless lead of Him) and will push for it not to be so easy for homeless to camp on local streets (much like tough-love to a teenager)

2) I give my support to a local agency that is very successful in helping homeless and disadvantaged get solid jobs (they did this with over 6000 people last year).

BTW - I don't mean to imply that everyone homeless can be lumped into one category, by any means!  People become homeless for varying reasons, and certainly not everyone chooses to live like that.

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

3 hours ago, JimmyB said:

Clearly you don't understand what it's like to be homeless>  Try living outside for extended periods of time, not sure where your next meal is going to come from, and you might have a different attitude.

Do you seriously believe that "some of these people make MUCH MORE money doing that than I do working"?  What do you do for a living?

Nobody chooses to be homeless!  I have no idea where you came up with that but it's simply not true.  Not having a roof over your head and not knowing where your next meal is coming from is not a lifestyle that anyone chooses!  If you are so envious of them, why not become homeless yourself?  Good shelter, good food, no taxes, good health care, etc!

People work and have homes because they need money to survive and want shelter from the weather.  If you're so envious, why not become homeless and live the life you suppose they live?

Saying that the only reason someone doesn't work is by choice is simply wrong.  Would you hire someone with no skills, no training, little to no education, etc? 

You make it sound like being homeless is almost paradise! If you truly it is, why not join them?

You are incorrect. I actually WAS homeless for about 6 months. While other people made signs and smoked and just hung out at "spots" around town, I went and got a job and worked and then got an apartment. 

 

While I was homeless, I went to the soup kitchen on any day I wasn't working and enjoyed the all you can eat with an entree and multiple sides and dessert, plus leftovers to take with you. Each night I returned to the shelter ( which had between 200-300 men and women in it ) and took my shower with all hygiene free and slept on an 8 inch mattress with a couple blankets. I would hear some people actually complain on the days when they made under $100 from panhandling ( those days were rare, once or twice a month ). I knew some people that put on great costumes to look like old war vets or physical disabilities ( canes or wheelchairs ) that would regularly bring in $200 a day plus food people had bought for them. So the question has an obvious answer, but WHY would someone who can make $100 - $200 a day panhandling want to go work a job that pays less than that after taxes. When you can simply sit somewhere and people will hand you food, clothing, money, etc, you DON'T need to work to survive. 

 

Being homeless isn't a paradise, but its no nightmare either. I live in Colorado and a few of our cities are right next to the mountains. I actually knew this 20 year old who did his panhandling racket and then biked to his giant 12 man 3 room tent that was about 5 miles outside town in the mountains. His tent was on lush grass with a clear creek he actually drank from la couple hundred feet away. He would tell me how much he DID love the freedom to hold a sign and hang out with his friends, and not have to get up at a certain time to go work and pay bills at a house. 

 

I'm NOT saying everyone is lazy or conning people. I did see legitimate mental illness and people in bad shape physically that couldn't work. But those people are the minority. MOST people can work if they want to, they simply choose not to. I can't live that lifestyle because I have a family to take care of. BUT, if I was alone, I definitely would be tempted to go back to that life. I'd be homeless and work during the 6 summer months and get an apartment the other 6 colder months. I'm not trying to attack the homeless community as a whole, BUT I am saying people should NOT give money to panhandlers or others unless they KNOW that person really needs it. I work but there are homeless people with ALOT more money than me. 

 

Just trying to get people to think about it a little before they throw away their hard earned money.