Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Buzzard3 said:

Wait ... you think "disobedience" in this passage refers to unbelief? 

"Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." (Ephesians 5:5-6).

Yes.  I see it as contrasting believing and not believing.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey (or disbelieves) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."  (John 3:36) 

[AdHoc]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:43 AM, Vine Abider said:

You bet! 

After reading and replying to the hundreds of posts on Worthy recently on this subject, I've come to see that there 3 main matters that some don't see, which might cause them to believe their eternal life in Christ is not secure (and think that they might even be sent to hell):

1) The matter of life regarding our rebirth . . . now we are children of God with Father's life/Spirit in us, and once anything is born with a life, it can't be unborn.

2) The matter of progressive sanctification - we have been saved/justified* (our spirits reborn), we are being saved now (our souls), and we will be saved (the wonderful hope of our bodies being redeemed/changed).

3) The matter of accountability, discipline and possible rewards or losses for the children of God, regarding how they have behaved and have built God's house (accountable both in this life & ultimately at the Bema Judgment of Christ).  He disciplines and chastens those He loves, and He loves His children beyond all measure!

UPDATE: It occurred to me that there's an addendum to #3 - differentiating the kingdom period from eternity.  If someone sees the kingdom government timeframe as being the same as eternity, this may be construed as loss of salvation (i.e., if someone is disciplined as per #3 above, or doesn't receive a kingdom reward).

* He did it all and paid it all to justify us, so this is about His all-sufficient sacrifice in our place . . . all we do is believe & receive this amazing justification!

So that's my observation regarding all these discussions we've been having around eternal security/insecurity - that is, not having a full understanding of some or all of these three matters, could possibly lead someone to think they might loose their eternal salvation and even be sent to hell.

I'm going to tag select ones who have contributed to this thread, to get their take on this observation of these three things: @AdHoc @Dennis1209 @Sower @Marilyn C @AFlameOfFire @Buzzard3

 

Been away for a few days, so the thread ran away from me. But to your request.

(1) There are three groups of Christians; (i) those who who believe that the Church is a Nation like Israel and God is in heaven and must be worshiped from a building, (ii) those who believe that God is the indwelling Spirit and a the Christian walk is an experimental way of life and that man's goal is to experience spiritual things, and (iii) those who search the scriptures for doctrine and subsequent rules of the successful Christian life.

Little is taught in the world's congregations about the Tree of Life, God's life and why God paid so high a price to get into man. God did not make man like toy robot and insert His Spirit like batteries. He did a most marvelous work and then made it available for men. The work was this.

God sent His Son to become a man and establish the perfect HUMANITY. But because this Son possessed the divine life of God, His humanity was flavored and regulated by divinity. Having put aside sin and sins judicially, God set about infusing the humanity of Jesus, coupled with His divine life. John 7:39 speaks of a Spirit "that was not yet". The word "given" is not in the original. This creates a difficulty because without the "given", the verse could mean that the Holy Spirit was not in existence. But if we are to remain true to God's Word without additions we must find another way to harmonize this verse. The solution is relatively easy. Here it is without the word "given":

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The verse does not make the Holy Spirit the subject. The verse makes the subject " ... the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive ...". God allowed the eternal to become a Man and live a perfect HUMAN life. This was a first. God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24), so human life was something to be added to God. And as this verse was was before Christ's resurrection, His "glorification" was still future in time. The resurrection in turn was proof that every little sin was dealt with. Man, was , at this point, still not justified by Christ's death and so was not in a position to receive the indwelling Spirit.

I realize my words are not elegant but what happened in fact was that the perfect human life was added to the Holy Spirit and then He came to dwell in us, not as a LAWGIVER, but to impart this human life embedded in the divine life. The same occurs in John 6. We must eat Jesus, NOT as the Spirit, but His FLESH and BLOOD - both containers of His humanity. But the result is we get it embedded in the divine life of God.

And because of its divine element, this life is called "Eternal life" because it had no beginning nor can it end. The argument that this divine life of God can be extinguished is absurd. Just the name, "eternal" means "ETERNAL" - no beginning and no end. Once God has joined Himself to men by making him "partaker of the divine life" (1st Pet.1:4), a course, a road has been started that cannot end. God, in all His power to regulate circumstances, does not need to overrule man's free will. He just allows circumstances to do His work.

God is ALL-mighty. His councils are immutable. His sons will come to maturity, even if it takes 1,000 years. He will have men and women in His image and likeness, though they be as stubborn and stiff-necked as iron. The argument that this security is an encouragement to live evilly is moot. Israel always came to the point of reason. they always cried to the Lord when His dealing had dome their work. How much more shall a Christian, who is "Temple" to the holy Spirit - one who has the very God of the universe IN HIM, not finally come to his senses? Does a refiner ever believe that he will not remove all impurities. Do they teach soldiers that if they are captured they will be able to resist interrogation? If savage men can turn your will, how much more the Living God?

(2) God protects His holiness. he only inserts His Spirit in the human spirit of man (Jn.3:6). the flesh of man is hopelessly lost. The soul of man has been trained to pander to the flesh. So God does not insert His Spirit in the soul and flesh. But from the time He comes to dwell in the human spirit, He starts a work of metamorphosis in a man's soul to make him think like, feel like and decide like Jesus did. This is a process where the organs of the soul, mind, emotion and will are dealt with by a combination of divine human life, chastisement, and training. At God's disposal is TIME. The man who is dealt with by God has his lifetime to cooperate with God. If he is stubborn he get the process of sanctification taught over the 1,000 years.

God will present His Son with a Bride "without spot and blemish" His track record is 100%. Fearsome and independent monarchs like Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were broken by Him. Nebuchadnezzar declared some of the most profound attributes of God. Does mere man think he can stay God's hand? Who is the Christian who has such a low estimate of Jehovah that (a) God's life can be extinguished - IN or OUTSIDE a man??? And (b) He can be thwarted in His councils?

The men who cooperate with God by eating His Word, denying the soul, crucifying the flesh and walking the same road that His Son Jesus did get to join Him "in His JOY". The rest - the rebellious Christians will be cast from the presence of Christ and be subject to the same "Transforming work" as his fellow Christian, except he has foolishly decided to be trained in the age of "the rule of the Rod of Iron".

"Many Stripes", "few stripes", tribulation, anguish, tears, gnashing of teeth will be the portion of the slothful and rebellious. Christians like to downplay the Judgment Seat of Christ. How foolish! To a Church our Lord Jesus warned that they could "hurt of the Second death".

The Lord has not set heaven as the goal. That is a Babylonian myth. God has set the "salvation of your soul" as the goal - now, in this age of grace, or in the next - by fire.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

9 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

Yes.  I see it as contrasting believing and not believing.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey (or disbelieves) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him."  (John 3:36) 

They can be contrasted I agree

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

I adopted your color scheme to make it easier to see.

[Buzzard3]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sorry, but this is NOT true. God doesn't give out His justification to just anyone!

Jesus died for everyone.

"While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly

... But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us."  (Romans 5:6-8).

 

"For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all ... And he died for all ... God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself" (2Cor 5:14-21)

 

 "we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1 Tim. 4:10). 

 

"God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved ... the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:3-6)

 

"For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men"  (Titus 2:11)

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Vine Abider]

On 10/15/2023 at 12:49 PM, AdHoc said:

Been away for a few days, so the thread ran away from me. But to your request.

(1) There are three groups of Christians; (i) those who who believe that the Church is a Nation like Israel and God is in heaven and must be worshiped from a building, (ii) those who believe that God is the indwelling Spirit and a the Christian walk is an experimental way of life and that man's goal is to experience spiritual things, and (iii) those who search the scriptures for doctrine and subsequent rules of the successful Christian life.

Little is taught in the world's congregations about the Tree of Life, God's life and why God paid so high a price to get into man. God did not make man like toy robot and insert His Spirit like batteries. He did a most marvelous work and then made it available for men. The work was this.

God sent His Son to become a man and establish the perfect HUMANITY. But because this Son possessed the divine life of God, His humanity was flavored and regulated by divinity. Having put aside sin and sins judicially, God set about infusing the humanity of Jesus, coupled with His divine life. John 7:39 speaks of a Spirit "that was not yet". The word "given" is not in the original. This creates a difficulty because without the "given", the verse could mean that the Holy Spirit was not in existence. But if we are to remain true to God's Word without additions we must find another way to harmonize this verse. The solution is relatively easy. Here it is without the word "given":

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The verse does not make the Holy Spirit the subject. The verse makes the subject " ... the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive ...". God allowed the eternal to become a Man and live a perfect HUMAN life. This was a first. God is a Spirit (Jn.4:24), so human life was something to be added to God. And as this verse was was before Christ's resurrection, His "glorification" was still future in time. The resurrection in turn was proof that every little sin was dealt with. Man, was , at this point, still not justified by Christ's death and so was not in a position to receive the indwelling Spirit.

I realize my words are not elegant but what happened in fact was that the perfect human life was added to the Holy Spirit and then He came to dwell in us, not as a LAWGIVER, but to impart this human life embedded in the divine life. The same occurs in John 6. We must eat Jesus, NOT as the Spirit, but His FLESH and BLOOD - both containers of His humanity. But the result is we get it embedded in the divine life of God.

And because of its divine element, this life is called "Eternal life" because it had no beginning nor can it end. The argument that this divine life of God can be extinguished is absurd. Just the name, "eternal" means "ETERNAL" - no beginning and no end. Once God has joined Himself to men by making him "partaker of the divine life" (1st Pet.1:4), a course, a road has been started that cannot end. God, in all His power to regulate circumstances, does not need to overrule man's free will. He just allows circumstances to do His work.

God is ALL-mighty. His councils are immutable. His sons will come to maturity, even if it takes 1,000 years. He will have men and women in His image and likeness, though they be as stubborn and stiff-necked as iron. The argument that this security is an encouragement to live evilly is moot. Israel always came to the point of reason. they always cried to the Lord when His dealing had dome their work. How much more shall a Christian, who is "Temple" to the holy Spirit - one who has the very God of the universe IN HIM, not finally come to his senses? Does a refiner ever believe that he will not remove all impurities. Do they teach soldiers that if they are captured they will be able to resist interrogation? If savage men can turn your will, how much more the Living God?

(2) God protects His holiness. he only inserts His Spirit in the human spirit of man (Jn.3:6). the flesh of man is hopelessly lost. The soul of man has been trained to pander to the flesh. So God does not insert His Spirit in the soul and flesh. But from the time He comes to dwell in the human spirit, He starts a work of metamorphosis in a man's soul to make him think like, feel like and decide like Jesus did. This is a process where the organs of the soul, mind, emotion and will are dealt with by a combination of divine human life, chastisement, and training. At God's disposal is TIME. The man who is dealt with by God has his lifetime to cooperate with God. If he is stubborn he get the process of sanctification taught over the 1,000 years.

God will present His Son with a Bride "without spot and blemish" His track record is 100%. Fearsome and independent monarchs like Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were broken by Him. Nebuchadnezzar declared some of the most profound attributes of God. Does mere man think he can stay God's hand? Who is the Christian who has such a low estimate of Jehovah that (a) God's life can be extinguished - IN or OUTSIDE a man??? And (b) He can be thwarted in His councils?

The men who cooperate with God by eating His Word, denying the soul, crucifying the flesh and walking the same road that His Son Jesus did get to join Him "in His JOY". The rest - the rebellious Christians will be cast from the presence of Christ and be subject to the same "Transforming work" as his fellow Christian, except he has foolishly decided to be trained in the age of "the rule of the Rod of Iron".

"Many Stripes", "few stripes", tribulation, anguish, tears, gnashing of teeth will be the portion of the slothful and rebellious. Christians like to downplay the Judgment Seat of Christ. How foolish! To a Church our Lord Jesus warned that they could "hurt of the Second death".

The Lord has not set heaven as the goal. That is a Babylonian myth. God has set the "salvation of your soul" as the goal - now, in this age of grace, or in the next - by fire.

That was a lengthy post/response, but well worth the read!  You bring out some good points and have a way or conveying things which incorporates wide-scope, salient supporting thoughts. 

Do you find scriptural support stating that all disobedient/immature Christians will spend the entire thousand years getting matured?  Or is this a matter of degrees?

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

That was a lengthy post/response, but well worth the read!  You bring out some good points and have a way or conveying things which incorporates wide-scope, salient supporting thoughts. 

Do you find scriptural support stating that all disobedient/immature Christians will spend the entire thousand years getting matured?  Or is this a matter of degrees?

I could be wrong but a number of factors lead me to this understanding.

1. The REWARD must be a reward. The mature, loyal, Overcomers paid a price. The reward was open to all, but a few paid the price.
2. The five foolish Virgins bought the right amount of oil, but were refused entry anyway.
3. In Daniel 12:1-2 addresses Israel. But the principle is the same. What you sowed  - you reap. the "contempt is everlasting"
4. "Stripes" is retribution. "Gnashing of teeth" is regret.
5. God only wipes away tears from His People after the New Earth is manifested (Rev.21:4)

A counter argument could be built. The end of the age is a harvest. The Great Tribulation obviously matures the living who missed the pre-tribulation rapture of firstfruits. But notice in Revelation 7:9-17 - they do not rule, but "serve".

Finally, for what it's worth, Peter denied our Lord and was not counted among the eleven. But then he is restored by the Lord in a private meeting and will sit on a throne over a Tribe of Israel. Judas likewise fails, but is not restored. Another must be selected immediately. It is what we do now that counts for the whole Millennium.

[Marilyn C]

On 10/5/2023 at 3:10 PM, Susan Miller said:

Today one of my Christian friends told me that no matter what he does, Lord Jesus will forgive his sin, since he has accepted Lord Jesus as savior, and finally he shall enter into God's kingdom. 

But I remember that our Lord Jesus said: “Not everyone that said to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).We can see from this that entering the kingdom of heaven is not a simple matter, not as long as we believe in the Lord we can enter the kingdom of heaven, we must strive to pursue. What's your opinion, my friends？

Hi Susan,

Yes, God forgives our sins, however if we willfully choose to continue in sinning and not choosing to work with the Holy Spirit to overcome in those areas then we will harden our hearts and have our conscience seared.

This means that we have willfully turned away from God, rejecting His Holy Spirit from working in our lives, and will suffer the consequence - hell and lake of fire.   

[Buzzard3]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:37 PM, Michael37 said:

I don't agree to adding anything to salvation by grace through faith. Romans 10:8-10

In that case, how does the following passage fit into your theology? 

"And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him;  but whoever keeps his word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:  he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."  1John 2:3-6

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that passage says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments don't know him, are liars and the truth is not in them.  It also says believers who don't keep Christ's commandments are not "in him" and do not abide on him.

In short, it says those who don't keep Christ's commandments are not saved.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Buzzard3

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

In short, it says those who don't keep Christ's commandments are not saved.

It is faith that pleases God and provides a conduit for His saving grace.

Heb 11:5-6  By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.  (6)  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

[Buzzard3]

On 10/14/2023 at 3:55 PM, Retrobyter said:

Galatians 2:15-21 (KJV)

 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

What Paul means by "works of the law" in that passage is the ritual laws of Moses, such as circumcision.  He is not saying a believer is not justified by any works.  That would contradict James 2:24 - "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" - and 1John 2:3-11, for starters.  Paul would also be contradicting himself (Gal 5:19-21, 1Cor 6:9-11).

Edited October 17, 2023 by Buzzard3