Are you sure that you shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven?

[Susan Miller]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:03 PM, AFlameOfFire said:

Is Susan speaking more along the lines of "sin through ignorance" (as the law might even describe it) or is she speaking more along the lines of  sinning "wilfully" (as Hebrews 10:26 speaks of it) ?

Sorry for late reply. i mean both situations. 

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Let's parse the question you asked (above):

1) God already granted eternal life - "Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts . . ."  Therefore, being already born-again as a child of God, this one can't be unborn of God.

21 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

Says who?

Let's just focus on this key thing -->  To my knowledge, a living creature being born and then being unborn never occures:

1) In scripture

2) In God's creation

Do you know of an example in either?

[Buzzard3]

6 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Let's just focus on this key thing -->  To my knowledge, a living creature being born and then being unborn never occures:

1) In scripture

2) In God's creation

Do you know of an example in either?

Poor analogy.  Being born physically isn't the same as being born spiritually.

Since being "born again" refers to baptism (John 3:3-5), it's impossible to be un-baptized.  

[Vine Abider]

1 minute ago, Buzzard3 said:

Poor analogy.  Being born physically isn't the same as being born spiritually.

Since being "born again" refers to baptism (John 3:3-5), it's impossible to be un-baptized.  

I'm thinking I read that Jesus was the one who first used the term, "born again" and it puzzled ol' Nicodemus.  Jesus then explained the analogy to him. "That which is born of Spirit is spirit."  This life when born in someone can't be unborn.  A child of God, born of His eternal life, doesn't ever stop being His child, any more than a human father can't stop his children from being his children.  And if a child misbehaves, a loving father doesn't (and can't) cause them to not be a child of their life . . . however, there will be consequences and discipline to correct them (just not eternal death).

 

[Buzzard3]

1 hour ago, Vine Abider said:

Therefore, being already born-again as a child of God, this one can't be unborn of God.

The following passage clearly implies that a believer (whom you refer to as "born again") can fall away and lose his salvation:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.  For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.  But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."  (Heb 6:4-8)

[Vine Abider]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard3 said:

The following passage clearly implies that a believer (whom you refer to as "born again") can fall away and lose his salvation:

"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.  For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.  But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."  (Heb 6:4-8)

While Hebrews 6 can be challenging and might appear to demonstrate what you say, nonetheless it doesn't show specifically being unborn, right?  The key concept being conveyed in the gospel of John is LIFE!  We are not just designated children of God - WE ACTUALLY RECEIVE GOD'S VERY ETERNAL LIFE INSIDE, REGENERATING OUR SPIRIT WITH HIS!  This is a simple and primary thing John was conveying for us throughout that gospel- LIFE, LIFE & MORE LIFE

So then, regarding the passage in Hebrews 6, I posted the below on another thread several weeks ago, and will copy it here for your perusal:

This is an interesting passage, which has been a challenge to many. If we look at the context of the preceding verses, the writer is addressing the Hebrew believers. The chapter starts off in verse one speaking about "Leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ" and being "brought on to maturity" and about "not laying again a foundation of repentance."  So the writer is speaking in verses one and two about a progression in the believer's faith and mentions a number of things in their foundation, and exhorts them to go on to further growth and  maturity.  And in verse three it confirms about being brought on into this maturity ("if God permits").

Then in verse four and five, it talks about this foundation which was already laid down.   Just like the foundation of a house being built, is is neigh impossible to go back and lay this foundation again - Christ did His work and the Hebrew believer has accepted Him and has been saved (born-again), and this constitutes a good, beginning foundation

Verse six then begins to say what will happen to these ones if they go back and adopt their old Jewish religion again (trying to lay another foundation).  They have fallen away, just like the Galatian Christians who went back to bring aspects of the law into the gospel of grace. Galatians 5:4 says, "You have been brought to naught from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."  They are trying to lay the same foundation again, except this time trying to justify themselves, and make themselves approved of God, by works.  They will not be under grace any longer, but under the old covenant (which has actually been replaced by the new covenant) of the law and dead works.

This is serious, to try and go back is greatly dishonoring to the Lord and His sacrifice for us! (see also Hebrews 10:29 "trampled under foot")

So what will be the result of this going back, and not continuing on into maturity?  Verse eight tells us it is like the ground "bringing forth thorns and thistles."  These things are "near a curse" and the end of growing thorns and thistles is for this "inedible produce" to be burned.

Interesting things in this verse as it says "near a curse."  Christians retreating from the grace they've been given and are brought into is a huge dishonor to all involved ("disapproved"), and is getting very close ("near") to being burned.

Being burned is serious, but I don't believe this is referring to a child of God loosing their life or salvation.  To put the burning into context, if we look at the passage in 1st Corinthians 3 it talks about the judging fire upon a believer's works done during their life.  If their works are not worthy, the works themselves will be burned, yet the person will be saved ("yet as through fire" in verse 15).  And I think the foundation mentioned a number of times in 1 Corinthians 3:10-12 is the same foundation as stated in this chapter in Hebrews 6.

[Buzzard3]

15 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

While Hebrews 6 can be challenging and might appear to demonstrate what you say, nonetheless it doesn't show specifically being unborn, right?  

What do you think, "its end is to be burned" (v.8) means?   

[Buzzard3]

34 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

While Hebrews 6 can be challenging and might appear to demonstrate what you say, nonetheless it doesn't show specifically being unborn

Hebrews 10:26-39 more or less reiterates what Heb 6:4-8 says ... that believers can lose their salvation (through sin or loss of faith) and be "destroyed":

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries ...

 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? ...

  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God ...

'but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him'

But we are not of those who shrink back and are DESTROYED, but of those who have faith and keep their souls"  (Hebrews 10:26-39).

[Michael37]

4 hours ago, Buzzard3 said:

So we're not saved by faith alone?  

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. If someone stops abiding in the Vine, they are not recipients of saving grace.

The faith plus works doctrine puts people back under the law.

Gal 2:16  know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 2:21  I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing.

Gal 5:4  You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[Buzzard3]

8 hours ago, Michael37 said:

No. Such a branch would die on the Vine, and be pruned and then burnt.

Well, if a believer who leads a life of sin and evil can die on the vine and be "burnt", we're not saved by faith alone, are we?   

What you're saying is we're saved by faith and righteousness, aka faith and obedience, aka faith and works.   I agree.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Buzzard3