No man knows the things of God

[Stewardofthemystery]

13 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Who do you believe the head is there StewardOfTheMystery?

Because if we are looking at these two verse in their context here, it starts with a "therefore" so what initially preceeds them has to apply in some way.

Isaiah 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail,

branch and rush, in one day. (what day is this speaking of?)

Isaiah 9:15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

If in the first verse (vs 14) it says, the LORD will "cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day". (all of them)

And the following verse (vs 15) tells us what the head and tail are (which are cut off in that one day)

The ancient and honourable, he is the head;(which is cut off) and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.(which is also cut off)

He is just defining what he is cutting off in just one day, so if it is not the head of Christ (God obviously) and not speaking of Christ (who is the head of the Church who was cut off) its speaking of others?

I was trying to get a better idea of what I am looking at because I don't really search these things out. But if  "ancient and honourable" being cut off applies more to how your putting it, such as "the top" parts/ chief men? (so to speak) the same are mentioned in "the taking away" thereof in Isaiah 3:1-7 Would this fit?

Isaiah 3:1-7 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, 
the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water, The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, 
and the ancient, The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.
And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them. And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, 
and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable. When 
a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand: In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

The two are mentioned in the above as being removed, and the people seem to be looking for a head (by way of rulership) and no one wants it.

But not sure, because although there are similarities, "the ancient and honorable" seems to be one, " a he" in particular rather than two sorts (referred to as either one or the other).

But no "ancient and honourable" as "a he" (as the head/ cut off ), in any way  referring to the "ancient of days"?

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Danieel 7:32 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

That would be a no, then. I will likely let you lay what you want to lay out and say no more because I dont know. I will just be blowing smoke into your thread fustrating your efforts.

Do you at least have a grip on what day the head/tail/branch/rush was cut off? I am clueless, and really stink with anything that is eschatological-ish, there is a great  need for me to do far more than brush up on it.

Peace to you in Christ

 

 

You ask some good questions.  If we look at the context of Isaiah 9 we see future prophecy of the coming of Messiah like verse 1 and 2…

9 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

² The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

And also in verse 6 and 7…

 

⁶ For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

⁷ Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Then in verses 13-17 we see Gods warning of why His wrath will be coming…..

 

¹³ For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the Lord of hosts.

¹⁴ Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

¹⁵ The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

¹⁶ For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

¹⁷ Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.”

So in the above verses we see the mention of “everyone”is a hypocrite and evil doer from the leaders (top) to those who are led of them (bottom).

It would be like saying the whole country is corrupt from the “top” (head) all the way to the “bottom”(tail).

Now to answer your question as to when this “one day” they would be “cut off from Israel.”

Spiritually speaking they could be “cut off from Israel” for having the “leaven” of false doctrine and of “hypocrisy”as mentioned above, and for not believing in Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Notice why the people would be “cut off from Israel”per God’s law…

 

Exodus 12:15

Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be “cut off from Israel.”

Exodus 12:19

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be “cut off from the congregation of Israel,”whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.”

 

And remember what Jesus said about the “leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees”

 

Matthew 16:11

How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

 

Or it could be they were physically cut off from Israel when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Either way they would cut off from Israel as prophesied.

Hope that helps.  Peace 

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

7 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

StewardOfTheMystery, can you fix your profile to accept a follow? 

How do I fix it?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

6 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

You ask some good questions.  If we look at the context of Isaiah 9 we see future prophecy of the coming of Messiah like verse 1 and 2…

9 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

² The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

And also in verse 6 and 7…

 

⁶ For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

⁷ Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”

Yes, yes Amen thank you.

6 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Then in verses 13-17 we see Gods warning of why His wrath will be coming…..

 

¹³ For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the Lord of hosts.

¹⁴ Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

¹⁵ The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

¹⁶ For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

¹⁷ Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.”

So in the above verses we see the mention of “everyone”is a hypocrite and evil doer from the leaders (top) to those who are led of them (bottom).

It would be like saying the whole country is corrupt from the “top” (head) all the way to the “bottom”(tail).

Much better StewardOfTheMystery , I think it was more of the leap from mind of Christ and mention of the ancient and honorable in both the head and the tail being cut off together that was making it a little difficult for me to see the forest through the trees. Like how can you be made either if you are both cut off?  I was thinking that perhaps Deut 28 and the below and above comparison with Jesus Christ's words might make for  better confirmation. 

Because I was thnking, Gees how can you make one a head or tail, whether thats above or below if you are cutting both of them off "over here" where the initial context begins with Christ. 

Well, just so that you get the way I was reasoning with it to catch what you were trying to show

6 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

Now to answer your question as to when this “one day” they would be “cut off from Israel.”

Spiritually speaking they could be “cut off from Israel” for having the “leaven” of false doctrine and of “hypocrisy”as mentioned above, and for not believing in Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Notice why the people would be “cut off from Israel”per God’s law…

 

Exodus 12:15

Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be “cut off from Israel.”

Exodus 12:19

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be “cut off from the congregation of Israel,”whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.”

 

And remember what Jesus said about the “leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees”

 

Matthew 16:11

How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

 

 

Or it could be they were physically cut off from Israel when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Either way they would cut off from Israel as prophesied.

Hope that helps.  Peace 

 

That same figure can be shown in the Church (Jesus is the head of) and again, I keep starting with Christ (the head) and his government in the context of Isaiah. You provided a good example there though. And yes I agree there is a spiritual comparison that could be made in the leaven in both the old and new. And especially when seeing houses as people and the leaven as hypocricy and even in relation to eating the blood sacrifice (in that which depicts Christ). Eating it with the leaven of what is insincere (hypocrisy) versus the unleavened bread of sincerity.

You can go back and forth between these

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Then they understood they

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Hitting on the leaven of just these 

Luke 12:1 Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Whereas Peter writes

1Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

Similar to put away leaven out of your houses Paul says

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Seeing it says similarly

Exodus 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven;
neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Keeping the feast and the mention of leaven here also

1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Even comparing the soul that should be cut off, those that are judged from within and putting away that wicked person down further then the verses I post, so it seems to apply individually and collectively (as far that which is called a brother) there (or in the context of the whole lump)

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

1Cr 5:2 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cr 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I need a better grip on the days there, the concept is clear and easy to compare between pictures but I havent gotten a grip on that.

I think we can move forward since I know where you are coming from much better now, thanks for clarifying a bit for me and your patience with my brain fog episodes.

Gods richest blessings in Christ be yours

Edited October 17, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

6 hours ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

How do I fix it?

I think you go into your settings and allow followers. I just realized I can just click see your content or I can just come over to your profile and find them. That works, I thought a follow might work better to do a follow, not sure. I think you would be my first follow, and I just wanted to see how that do-dad works. Haha

[Stewardofthemystery]

46 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

I think you go into your settings and allow followers. I just realized I can just click see your content or I can just come over to your profile and find them. That works, I thought a follow might work better to do a follow, not sure. I think you would be my first follow, and I just wanted to see how that do-dad works. Haha

On my options it says it does allow others to follow, so I’m not sure what the problem is?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

14 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

On my options it says it does allow others to follow, so I’m not sure what the problem is?

I can follow you now, and I just did, maybe it was me, maybe I wasnt seeing how I do that, afterall this my first time and I'm not too swift.

Its all good now, thanks brother

[Stewardofthemystery]

58 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Yes, yes Amen thank you.

Much better StewardOfTheMystery , I think it was more of the leap from mind of Christ and mention of the ancient and honorable in both the head and the tail being cut off together that was making it a little difficult for me to see the forest through the trees. Like how can you be made either if you are both cut off?  I was thinking that perhaps Deut 28 and the below and above comparison with Jesus Christ's words might make for  better confirmation. 

Because I was thnking, Gees how can you make one a head or tail, whether thats above or below if you are cutting both of them off "over here" where the initial context begins with Christ. 

Well, just so that you get the way I was reasoning with it to catch what you were trying to show

That same figure can be shown in the Church (Jesus is the head of) and again, I keep starting with Christ (the head) and his government in the context of Isaiah. You provided a good example there though. And yes I agree there is a spiritual comparison that could be made in the leaven in both the old and new. And especially when seeing houses as people and the leaven as hypocricy and even in relation to eating the blood sacrifice (in that which depicts Christ). Eating it with the leaven of what is insincere (hypocrisy) versus the unleavened bread of sincerity.

You can go back and forth between these

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Then they understood they

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Hitting on the leaven of just these 

Luke 12:1 Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Whereas Peter writes

1Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

Similar to put away leaven out of your houses Paul says

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Seeing it says similarly

Exodus 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven;
neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.

Keeping the feast and the mention of leaven here also

1Cr 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Even comparing the soul that should be cut off, those that are judged from within and putting away that wicked person down further then the verses I post, so it seems to apply individually and collectively (as far that which is called a brother) there (or in the context of the whole lump)

Exodus 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

1Cr 5:2 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Cr 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

I need a better grip on the days there, the concept is clear and easy to compare between pictures but I havent gotten a grip on that.

I think we can move forward since I know where you are coming from much better now, thanks for clarifying a bit for me and your patience with my brain fog episodes.

Gods richest blessings in Christ be yours

I’m glad you get where I am coming from on that.  If God and Christ are from “above,” then those who are of the world are from “below.”

The Lord saying the earth is His “footstool”paints this same picture, and so does making thine enemies thy “footstool.”
 

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy “footstool.”

 

Isaiah 66:1

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

You can also see this when the Lords disciples are given power from on “High” “over” the enemy to tread on serpents and scorpions. 

 

Luke 10:19

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and “over”all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

 

And God shall bruise Satan “under” our feet…

 

Romans 16:20

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

Think about how “low” the serpent is because God made it to crawl on it’s belly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

25 minutes ago, Stewardofthemystery said:

I’m glad you get where I am coming from on that.  If God and Christ are from “above,” then those who are of the world are from “below.”

The Lord saying the earth is His “footstool”paints this same picture, and so does making thine enemies thy “footstool.”
 

Psalm 110:1

The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy “footstool.”

 

Isaiah 66:1

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

 

You can also see this when the Lords disciples are given power from on “High” “over” the enemy to tread on serpents and scorpions. 

 

Luke 10:19

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and “over”all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

 

And God shall bruise Satan “under” our feet…

 

Romans 16:20

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

 

Think about how “low” the serpent is because God made it to crawl on it’s belly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with this, and have nothing to add to this actually.

Maybe one thing, its sort of odd that a serpent (which by nature goes upon its belly) to be cursed to go upon its belly though, dont you think?

After deceving Eve

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle,  and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Unlike the two legged ones here

Mat 23:23 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers

And of the same says,

Romans 6:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

As she and the man being a picture of Christ and the Church

2 Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Cr 11:4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Since friendship with the world is enmity with God, it also says

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

His seed (the Word of God) abideth in her/ the church

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Which can also mean her feet are his feet in the sense that the two are one flesh (and body) and He gives them power to tread (their feet) in that way too.

The belly thing is kind of cool though, cursed to go upon it, but also those who serve not Christ are said to serve their own bellies also deceiving the simple.

I could have written this better, but I was just tossing that in there.

I agree with your post, nothing to add there but an opportunity to catch something between the bellys haha.

 

God bless you brother

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[FJK]

5 minutes ago, AFlameOfFire said:

Maybe one thing, its sort of odd that a serpent (which by nature goes upon its belly) to be cursed to go upon its belly though, dont you think?

But did it go upon its belly before it was cursed to do so?

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

9 minutes ago, FJK said:

But did it go upon its belly before it was cursed to do so?

If it was a komodo dragon sort of serpent after a carnal truth likely not. 

Jesus shows serpents can have legs

 And just how God brought the beasts unto Adam to see what he would call them...

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by AFlameOfFire