Dilemma about holy spirit, in Acts 2:14-21

[nebula]

You know, it always concerns me when a man starts devaluing emotions and calling them evil.

It makes me wonder if he has a problem with females - as it is considered fact that women are emotional creatures....

[2nd2n1roc]

You know, it always concerns me when a man starts devaluing emotions and calling them evil.

I guess sarcasm is pointed towards me, and all I can say is, " You need to read better, because,

I have said that those emotions powered by fear ( because fear is base of huge number of emotions ) define Satan. I did not say evil emotions.

It makes me wonder if he has a problem with females - as it is considered fact that women are emotional creatures....

I am happily married with two kids. If that is something that supposed to represent problem,

you've pictured wrong guy.

[Ovedya]

Genesis 2:25 " The man and his wife were both naked and they felt no shame. "

This is contrary to what ?

Genesis 3:7 " Then ( after both of them ate from The tree ) the eyes of both of them were

opened, and they realized they were naked, so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. "

eyes getting open, and FEAR, as #1 emotion is kicking in

Can you be so kind and find Us a verse proving emotion ( other than Love ) in Adam,

before Sin ?

The sewing together of fig leaves indicates shame, which is the result of guilt. Their fear was also motivated by the shame and guilt for what they had done. However, because Adam and Eve showed guilt, shame and fear, does not mean that these feelings were never present before the fall. You are simply making the assumption that such feelings were not present before.

However, as you will see from my answer to the second part of your response, human emotions were present in Adam and Eve before the fall.

Here's another one that prooves that Adam did not have fear before " His eyes were open "

Gen. 3:10 " He answered ( Adam ), I heard you in the garden, and I was AFRAID because

I was naked, so I hid . "

Adam have disobeyed God, and steped on the side of Satan, anger, rage, envy, fear, and all other emotions powered by fear define Satan, not God . God is Love. 100 %

As I wrote above this kind of fear was motivated by guilt and shame, which come from Adam's willingful disobedience. The emotions of anger, rage, and envy are not powered by fear. Fear is essentially the unreasonable emotional response to the unknown or to perceived or immediate danger. Fear does not power anything. Fear is powerless is is the state of being powerless. Of the four you listed above, only anger, envy and fear are genuine emotions.

Now, as for emotions being present before the fall, we can look to a couple of concrete examples:

In Genesis 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, and 25 the word "good" is used to describe God's pleasure regarding each part of His creation; and in verse 31 the term "very good" is used to describe His pleasure regarding His creation as a whole.

The Hebrew word for "good" is Towb (transliterated), which means "good, pleasant, or agreeable; something that is pleasant. As an adjective, Towb is used to describe something that is pleasant, or something that brings joy, happiness or satisfaction. As a verb the word is used to describe the state of being joyful.

Happiness is an emotion. Joy is an emotion. Therefore, God's stating that each individual part of creation was "good" means that He was happy, joyful, and satisfied with each part. Furthermore, the term "very good" means that He was exceedingly or abundantly happy, joyful, and satisfied with His creation entirely.

Furthermore Genesis 2:18 God said, "It is not good for man to be alone." This indicates that God was not happy with Adam's being alone, without a counterpart. Although Genesis is not clear on the matter, I believe that God's conclusion regarding Adam's being alone was due to Adam's feeling. We can see a little hint of this in verse 20 where Adam could not find a helper that was fit for him. Certainly Adam was lonely! Finally, in verse 23 Adam said, "This at last is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh." That term, "at last" really is best translated as "is now." In other words Adam was saying, "This time it is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh." The term itself indicates Adam's satisfaction and joy at having a woman that matched him."

As I wrote in my previous answer, the story of Adam and Eve is a picture of God's economy, according to His will and heart's desire. Adam is a picture of our wonderful Christ, who died upon the cross in order to produce the church which will be presented to Himself as His counterpart, His bride. So if in the beginning God said, "It is not good for man to be alone," isn't it reasonable to say that God was also talking about Himself? God desires a bride! It was foreshadowed in the story of Genesis, and this desire is fully culminated in at the end of Revelation. Why would God desire a bride, a counterpart? Is it possible that God desires to share eternity with a loving corporate woman? Is it possible that in creating all things, God's heart's desire was for this corporate woman? I believe so. I also believe that it was not only love that motivated God for this, but also that He purposed in Himself that it was not good to have the entirety of the universe and eternity for Himself. Can God exerience lonliness? Sure He can!

Finally, in Genesis 3:6 Eve saw that the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was "pleasant to the sight." That phrase in Hebrew means, "desirable; Something to be longed for with the heart." Desire in and of itself is not an impure emotion, although after the fall desire is almost always associated with lust.

If the fall was responsible for human emotion then there is no way that Eve could have desired the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She would not have seen that the fruit was "pleasant to the sight and desired to make one wise." Now, you could argue that the serpent made Eve desire the fruit, but there is just no evidence of that at all. In fact, not only did the enemy of God blind Eve to the fact of the tree's inherant evil, he actually played upon her emotions, her desire for knowledge and wisdom. The devil could never have manipulated Eve into disobedience if she had not had emotions in the first place.

" he did not have the eternal life of God " ??

In Genesis 2:9 " ...... In the midle of the Garden were tree of life*, and the tree of knowledge

of good and evil. " and then Genesis 2:16,17.

If He was already mortal what sense would make God's commandement " ..... don't eat of it

or you'll surely die. "

* what does free use of this tree mean to you ?

Well, it doesn't mean that Adam had already eaten of the tree of life. The tree of life contained the eternal life of God Himself.

Genesis 3:22 it says, "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- "

It's a common mistake that some believe that Adam had eternal life before the fall. To say that Adam had eternal life before the fall not only contradicts the verses above, it also implies that the power of sin is greater than the eternal life of God. No, Adam did not have eternal life before the fall, and there is nothing in the first 3 chapters of Genesis that indicates that He did.

In the creation story of Genesis 1 God created the entire environmental "cycle of life." That means that all of creation creation is born, lives, dies, and renews itself every generation. Man has never been an exception to that rule. He was created within the sphere of the environment, and so he must follow the same rules as everything else that was created. The difference is that God's intention was for man to have eternal life devoid of sin. He created man and gave him the choice between death and eternal life. Obviously man chose wrongly, and death, spiritual death and disease entered into the sphere of the creation that God gave man authority over.

Grace to you,

~O

[Ovedya]

this is a good discussion.

a sunday school class discussed similar things pertaining to mans conscious.

if he was created with one, and he was created perfect in Gods image, why would God create something that had no use(sort of a belly button topic) until man sinned, and this leads to the thought that God created man to "chose" sin or not....

but it is God who 'pre-chose' the elect......so does man actually have his own will?

(calvinist type discussion)...

Wheeeewwww...I can see a discussion like that being a whole "animal" unto itself.

[2nd2n1roc]

Genesis 3:22 it says, "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" -- "

It's a common mistake that some believe that Adam had eternal life before the fall. To say that Adam had eternal life before the fall not only contradicts the verses above, it also implies that the power of sin is greater than the eternal life of God. No, Adam did not have eternal life before the fall, and there is nothing in the first 3 chapters of Genesis that indicates that He did.

In my (NIV) Bible Genesis 3:22 says " .... He must NOT be allowed to reach out his hand

and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. " then in Gen. 3:24, God even

put cherubim with flaming sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

God's plan for people to fullfil the planet is showing inevitable fall in order to procreate.

Adam and Eve, created in their high twenties to stay like that forever, because of free use of tree of life. Their counterpart is todays God's church, that is going to go through reverse

process of steppin from mortality into eternity

He created man and gave him the choice between death and eternal life. Obviously man chose wrongly, and death, spiritual death and disease entered into the sphere of the creation that God gave man authority over.

Grace to you,

~O

First you've said Adam was created mortal, now you saying He had a choice. Death is not

choice but matter of time if one is mortal.

So far in my life, did not have chance to talk to a Christian who believes Adam was created mortal, regardless of his choice.

Just be who you are, and if you ask me, It's all Good

Grace 2 U 2

[2nd2n1roc]

if he was created with one, and he was created perfect in Gods image, why would God create something that had no use(sort of a belly button topic) until man sinned, and this leads to the thought that God created man to "chose" sin or not....

If you ask me, future of this dicussion depends on your definition of " Perfect ".

If you feel that Perfect Man is the one who did infact chose Death over Eternal Life, than,

our visions of the perfect Man are different.

but it is God who 'pre-chose' the elect......so does man actually have his own will?

(calvinist type discussion)...

God creates everything, including everyones life. We are making choices, that can give us

only two possible outcomes, we live or we die. As long as you are alive, that choice wasn't

yours but God's, if you die, that choice was yours, because it wrapped up your destiny.

To me, free means no limitations of any kind. Death is huge limitation, especialy for not knowing

when will it happen'.

People can only believe they have free will, truth is they don't.

[Ovedya]

"Free use" of the tree of life does not mean that Adam ate of the fruit of it. God's blocking the way to the tree of life proves that Adam had not partaken of it.

Let me ask you this, brother, is sin and death greater than the eternal uncreated life of God?

[2nd2n1roc]

"Free use" of the tree of life does not mean that Adam ate of the fruit of it. God's blocking the way to the tree of life proves that Adam had not partaken of it.

Two trees in the center of Eden, one gives eternal life, another one certain physical death.

Sin came onto sceen that very instant, when Adam felt change in his mind, fear and shame, and realized what God's words " If you eat from it, you will surely die "

God's blocking the way to the tree of life proves that Adam was able to have children,

live 930 years and die. " Adam had not partaken of it " is an Assumption, because thanks to that

tree of life he lived as 29 year old for thousand years, from creation til fall.

Which makes fruit from the Tree of life, something that " dumb blonde " would die for.

Let me ask you this, brother, is sin and death greater than the eternal uncreated life of God?

Sin and death produce nonexistence, eternal life is opposite to that, how can death be greater than life ?

[Ovedya]

Two trees in the center of Eden, one gives eternal life, another one certain physical death.

Sin came onto sceen that very instant, when Adam felt change in his mind, fear and shame, and realized what God's words " If you eat from it, you will surely die "

God's blocking the way to the tree of life proves that Adam was able to have children,

live 930 years and die. " Adam had not partaken of it " is an Assumption, because thanks to that

tree of life he lived as 29 year old for thousand years, from creation til fall.

Which makes fruit from the Tree of life, something that " dumb blonde " would die for.

I'm sorry, I'm afraid this makes no sense to me. I don't understand what you are tryuing to say here at all.

What I think you're saying is two things: 1) That Adam lived as a 29-year old man for a thousand years, until the fall, and 2) That Adam was not able to have children until after the fall.

If that's what you're saying, then I'd certainly like to see evidence of that from Scripture. Because, I have no found any evidence of any specified period of time between Adam's creation and the time he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Nor have I found any evidence that Adam was exactly 29 years old. He could have been 13 or 16 years old for all we know.

In Genesis 1:20-24 God created all the creatures "after their own kind" and tols them to "be fruitful and multiply." This tells us that all the animals were able to reproduce after their own kind. Why would God have then created Adam and Eve without the capability of procreation? This runs contrary to the principals that God established in His creation. Not only that, but your statement would also imply that man's procreation was the result of the fall, and so is a kind of curse upon mankind.

If this is not what you are trying to say here, please be so kind as to clarify a little bit more. I hate to draw wrong conclusions.

Sin and death produce nonexistence, eternal life is opposite to that, how can death be greater than life ?

I asked you if sin and death are greater than the eternal life of God. Is this your answer to that question? A simple yes or no is easier to decipher than a question.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Ovedya

[Ovedya]

2nd2n1roc,

Brother, before you respond to my last comments, I would encourage you to carefully consider the implications of your answers. The answers you provided in your last response imply that sin and death are greater than the eternal life of God.

Think about it: If Adam had eaten of the tree of life, what would have happened to Him? Well, obviously the tree of life is something more than natural physical life. Adam already had his natural physical life. It also must have been something other than Adam's "soul life," because Adam posessed all the capabilities inherant to the human soul: He had a mind which with to think, emotions with which to feel (That is apparently debatable to you, however), and he had a will with which to act.

So the tree of life must have been something of God - it must have been the eternal and uncreated life of God. In fact, the verse that I gave above from Genesis 2 pretty much tells us this, because God said, "Lest he stretch out his hand...and eat, and live forever..." So, if God had blocked Adam's way to the tree of life, it must have meant that Adam's access to the eternal life of God was cut off. This is important to note, considering the fact that Christ's death re-opened that way, and it was foreordained by God that this should happen. The provision for man's access to eternal life was given the very same day that God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden.

Now, back to the hypothetical. If Adam had eaten of the tree of life first, as you claimed, then that would mean that sin and death - the power of sin and death - are greater than the life of God, because he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil second; then sin and death entered into creation. Sin and death would have to be more powerful than the eternal and uncreated life of God by the facts that: A) Adam's eternal life was "cut off," and he began to age physically and he died spiritually, B)Adam inherited corrupted emotions, which are something more than God created or posessed, and, C) Sin and death are able to produce that which eternal life cannot create, that being children.

This all runs contrary to the explicit words in the Scriptures regarding the eternal life of God. The first chapter of the book of John refutes every single thing that I've just written. God's eternal life is much greater than sin and death. This life was in the Person of Jesus Christ, who even conquored the power of sin and death by this life.

So please, please, consider the implications of your statements here. They are no solidly grounded in the Bible.

Grace to you,

~O