BODY AND SOUL AND SPIRIT

[jeremiah1five]

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

The righteousness/holiness that is created is imputed, and has nothing to do with the human spirit.  You are simply ignoring the obvious meaning of being RE-generated, which is because the human spirit is already in the human being, but non-functioning.  So, at saving faith, the spirit is RE-generated.  It's already there, but "made alive" as Eph 2:5 plainly says.

God's righteousness or holiness is not created. It is God Himself just as "God is love" so, too, God is righteousness or God is Holy/holiness. Neither are created so there is something else in view here and that is the new man which is created in [God's] righteousness and holiness and it is these attributes of God that are imputed, not created. And the new man (body, soul, and human spirit) is the new man as opposed to the old man which is body and soul - no human spirit. And the word "created" transliterated into Hebrew is "bara" which means something being "created" out of nothing.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Please give evidence when making a claim.  And you are ignoring the clear words of Eph 2:5.

This is hardly a blanket proof for your claim.  

You have just ignored what I posted above.  Death doesn't equal "ceasing to exist" as I've pointed out by the FACT that after death, the body is still here with us.

This isn't about atonement, but the indwelling Holy Spirit, which occurs at saving faith in Christ.

None of these are about salvation.  

I'm starting to think you don't know HOW one receives salvation by your claim.  The New Covenant is specifically about salvation.  

What do you think the words "saving faith" means?

"Saving faith" is a construct which doesn't hold any relation to salvation since God saves merely on His promise to save, and that His covenant people. Theologians have made up this term but one does not need faith to be saved as there is no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. God makes promise to Abraham and his seed and then keeps every promise He's made to Abraham and his seed. 

The Abraham Covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17. The Mosaic Covenant doesn't require faith but it does require obedience for God says so.

And the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 doesn't mention faith. 

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

How does any of your response relate to what I said above?  Seems you just ignore what I post and continue on in your own dialogue.  The point of Matt 25:46 is that there will be an eternal punishment for the unsaved.  Why do you ignore that?

I don't ignore it, I understand it.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

In the Bible, 'fire' can be used as a metaphor for several things:  eternal punishment, physical punishment, and an evaluation, such as 1 Cor 3:14-15.

I suggest you choose your words more carefully, because my comments are based on what you post.

So then, do you believe that the soul will exist eternally?  You've not been clear on that.

Will oxygen be required in eternity?

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

What I posted is clear enough.  The unsaved bodies will be raised back to life but will still be mortal, and subject to die again, which will occur when they are cast into the LOF per Rev 20:14.  The LOF is called "the second death", which refers to the FACT that the mortal body "raised to life" to appear before the GWT judgment will die AGAIN.

The believer's bodies will be resurrected like the body Jesus was resurrected in:  immortal and glorified, never to die again.

Alll this is rather confused.  God created both Adam and the woman without sin or corruption.  Otherwise, you have to defend a perfect and holy God creating evil.  God gave the 2 freedom to make choices, which led to rebellion, which is evil.

God create Adam and the woman sinful (missing the mark.) The word is sin.

And God created everything that exists in creation - even evil.

      7       I form the light, and create darkness:
      I make peace, and create evil:
      I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7.

The LORD does all those things and everything in existence as part of His creation.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

iow, God permits evil to exist, but He cannot create it.

You're trying to equate what man does with what God has done.  Nope.

When perfect God says His creation is "good" He means just that, without sin.

That's a leap. "Good" only means "good enough" or "to specification." In other words after creating God says it is "good" or "to specification" to what He desired it be after He's created [the thing.] We say the same thing for a job well done. "How did the chair you built turn out?" "Good. Exactly how I wanted it."

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

There was no need for a Savior until they sinned, so your understanding is in error.

God is Savior. And here is where they sinned. They added to God's Word and were proven liars:

      6       Add thou not unto his words,
      Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Prov. 30:6.

They added to God's Word when they added "neither shall ye touch it." Sin comes from sinners just as holiness comes from holy. The contrast between the first and second/last Adam is clear. Adam was created siful and sinned twice. First, by adding to God's Word and again in eating the forbidden tree/fruit. Sin comes from sinner:

 13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:12–13.

Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Jesus Christ was Holy and did no sin. At all.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

The promise of a Savior came at Gen 3:15, which is AFTER they sinned.  No need until they became sinners.

If God created them as sinners, you have to defend a perfect holy God creating sin.  I thoroughly reject that opinion.  Nor does the Bible support your claim.

 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [BEFORE] the foundation (creation) of the world. Rev. 13:7–8.

Before God created heaven, earth, and man a lamb was slain in the heavenly Tabernacle. This was a sacrifice which allowed a Righteous God to create an unrighteous being: man.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Right.  Once A&E sinned, all their progeny were born sinners.  Romans 5 covers this in detail.

No, they sinned because they were created sinners. Sin does not come from holy.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Except for A&E.  They became sinners.  Read Romans 5.

Nope.  That was Eve's failure to pay attention to commands.  That was no sin, because only God sets the standards in the Garden, and the ONLY SIN possible was eating of the forbidden tree.  The text is clear enough.

Yes, the text is clear enough. Adam and the woman were created sinful which is why they sinned. They added to God's Word and then they ate from the forbidden tree/fruit. Lying is a sin according to God.

      6       Add thou not unto his words,
      Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Prov. 30:6.

They added to God's word when they said, "neither shall ye touch it."

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Apparently you misunderstand.  Eve didn't lie.  She was confused and deceived.

And so, she was excused? Childbearing, among other things, was the punishment for their sins. I don't make excuses for sin.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

No one lied in the Garden except the master liar, Satan.

Sorry, but your opinions just don't align with Scripture.  

Gen 3:22 - And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

So, if eating the Tree of Life would make them live forever (eternal) then this means they were not eternal in their creation which means they "fell short of the glory of God." Saul calls that "sin" (Romans.)

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

The point here is that in their new sinful condition, if they ate from that tree, they would "live forever" in a sinful state, with no chance for salvation.

Yeah, that is the textbook answer and reasoning, and I used to believe that lie.

The bottom line is that neither Adam and the woman in their creation cannot stand blameless before a Holy God as Christ could and did. In order to stand before a Holy God blameless they would have to possess ALL the Deific Attributes and Nature of God or else they would "fall short of [that] glory." The word for that is "sin."

Only Christ can stand before a Holy God blameless. 

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

So it seems you don't believe Matt 25:46 or Regv 20:11-15.  Why not?

Both the soul and spirit are immaterial.  So your point about being "ex nihilo" is immaterial as well.  Just as a human dead body continues to exist, so does a human spirit that has died.  But you are free to disagree.  But your views don't align with Scripture.  You are clearly ignoring the meaning of words:  RE-generation, being made alive.  These clearly refer to a dead human spirit that comes back to life.

If a born-again person's sins are all paid for on the cross why do men still die? Death is the punishment for sin is it not?

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Such a theology is foreign to the Bible.  To "believe in Christ" means to "put your trust in Christ".  Salvation is based on faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.  Apparently you align with Calvinism, which holds to the idea that God chooses who to save by giving them regeneration so that they will believe.  That is not in the Bible.

Faith is a gift and no one who is alive physically and yet dead before God in trespasses and sin do not have faith to speak of. Faith is a gift given. Besides this dead men do not have faith. The faith that saves was 'exercised' by Christ. It is HIS FAITH God honored and by which anyone is saved.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

What you seem to be totally unaware of is the FACT that the offer of salvation is to everyone, per Titus 2:11.  And eternal life is given to those who believe the gospel promise of salvation.  John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 10:28.  

Salvation - according to Scripture - is between God, Abraham and Abraham's seed, a people to be known as the children of Israel. As far as my reading of the Hebrew Scripture is concerned, I find no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. None. And God has covenant with the Hebrew seed of Abraham. That's all.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

A jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO DO DO to be saved, and Paul's answer was:  believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

The jailer would have to be the seed of Abraham for this would make him an heir of the promises. Otherwise, if the jailer was a non-Hebrew Gentiles, then Scripture (Hebrew Scripture) would be broken and Jesus said this "cannot be done."

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

So it is clear that your opinions are directly opposed to Paul's answer.

There is no such thing as "predestined saved".  Romans 8 mentions predestination, but it isn't about salvation.  Rom 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Saul as rabbi and Pharisee is addressing Jews. They are already in covenant from Abraham going forward and salvation is a by-product of covenant. The Mosaic Covenant commanded a sin sacrifice and the Bible says the blood of the covenant was sprinkled upon the waiting people as per covenant. The high priest did not leave Israel, go to the Gentiles and offer sacrifices for their sin, did he? No, and neither did Christ as High Priest break Scripture and do the same for non-Hebrew Gentiles.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

That isn't about salvation, but becoming "Christ-like".  And when all believers receive their resurrection bodies, they will fulfill that verse.

So, Peter, Saul, James - none of the biblical Christians were "Christ-like" in their Christianity? 

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

I thoroghly reject that error.  Romans 5 refutes it.

The Bible is very clear about how to be saved and receive eternal life, which is through faith in Christ.  Those who d0n't believe that are in direct opposition to Scripture.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

These verses clearly refute your claim.

Saul was writing to Jews as was James, Peter, John, Jude, etc. The whole of Scripture from Genesis to Malachi records God's dealing with His covenant people the Hebrews through Abraham. Timothy would have to be a Hebrew or a mixed heritage Hebrew for he would still be the seed of Abraham or else Scripture is broken. I don't hold to beliefs that are not found in Scripture. 

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

What you have missed is what His promise is BASED ON.  See the verses above.

Also, 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Saul wrote to Jews and Jewish Christians at Corinth. None of the Hebrew Scripture from Genesis to Malachi, or from Matthew to Revelation are written to non-Hebrew Gentiles. 

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

Which Lazarus are you referring to?  Luke 16 or John 11?

John 11.

On 2/19/2025 at 9:48 AM, FreeGrace said:

I have proven my views from actual Scripture.  You've repeatedly mentioned what you "hold to", which is just your opinions.

Dead men do not have faith. Thus, it was Jesus' faith God honored by which anyone is saved. Faith is a gift, is it not? And it is also given AFTER one is born-again, but it is Jesus' faith that God honored by which His covenant people are saved.

This is bible.

[FreeGrace]

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Of course I do. I take what is written in Scripture for my understanding in and under the anointing. Now, about the New Covenant here is the passage describing Jeremiah's prophecy:

      31       Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
      That I will make a new covenant
      With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
      32       Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
      In the day that I took them by the hand
      To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
      Which my covenant they brake,
      Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
      33       But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
      After those days, saith the LORD,
      fI will put my law in their inward parts,
      And write it in their hearts;
      And will be their God,
      And they shall be my people.
      34       And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
      Know the LORD:
      For they shall all know me,
      From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
      For I will forgive their iniquity,
      And I will remember their sin no more. Jeremiah 31:31–34.

And honest reading shows that faith is not mentioned nor a requirement. Instead, the New Covenant shows only what God is going to do to save His people and there is no requirement for faith.

There is no mention of being saved either.  Jeremiah was describing what God would do to saved people.

The NT is full of verses that state faith/belief/trust is THE requirement for salvation/eternal life.

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Saul says that men are dead in trespasses and sins. Lazarus was dead in trespasses and sins and laid in the grave unable to "have faith" in anything to change his condition.

Lazarus was a saved man, as was his 2 sisters.  They were disciples of Christ.  Of course faith wasn't a condition at all.  Jesus was demonstrating His power as God.

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

In fact, Lazarus remained in the grave dead three, then four days until Jesus even got up to go to him and his family. It wasn't faith that saved Lazarus from this time in the grave UNTIL Jesus commanded "Lazarus, [to] Come Forth!" This is a powerful lessonpl on being raised from the dead being killed by trespasses and sin. Faith played no part in Lazarus' resurrection.

And no one says otherwise.

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

The Abraham Covenant is found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17, and an honest reading of the pertinent passages reveals no faith is required in this covenant.

Did you overlook Gen 15:6?  Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

And please read all of Romans 4, which is about justification.

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

And it should be said that Abraham was an obedient believer who had relationship with God before God stepped out and gave Abraham promises as we find in these chapters in Genesis. And the faith that Saul writes about that he had had nothing to do with the covenant promises in chapters 12, 15, and 17. The only requirement was to "walk perfect before God" and "circumcision. The faith Saul is referencing surrounds Abraham going up the mount to sacrifice Isaac. And faith of Abraham in this event is found in Genesis 22:5 AFTER the closing of the Abrahamic Covenant.

None of this has to do with salvation.

4 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen. 22:5.

If Abraham was successful is sacrificing Isaac Abraham's faith is wrapped up knowing that Isaac is a promised birth and the covenant is to pass to him so Abe's faith which he exercised is holding God to "provide" and that Isaac will be his rightful heir and would have to raise Isaac from death to bring that about. 

But a reading of the Abraham Covenant found in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 does not mention faith nor is faith a requirement.

The very many verses that specifically mention faith/believing/trust for the reception of salvation/eternal life refutes your claims.

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

God's righteousness or holiness is not created.

God imputes His righteousness to those who believe.  I never said it was created.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

It is God Himself just as "God is love" so, too, God is righteousness or God is Holy/holiness. Neither are created so there is something else in view here and that is the new man which is created in [God's] righteousness and holiness and it is these attributes of God that are imputed, not created.

What is new is the formerly dead human spirit is "made alive" (Eph 2:5) when a person believes in Christ.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

And the new man (body, soul, and human spirit) is the new man as opposed to the old man which is body and soul - no human spirit.

The very words "RE-generation" and "born AGAIN" clearly indicate a new birth.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

And the word "created" transliterated into Hebrew is "bara" which means something being "created" out of nothing.

That obviously refers to the soul/spirit complex that God breathed into Adam's nostrils.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

"Saving faith" is a construct which doesn't hold any relation to salvation since God saves merely on His promise to save, and that His covenant people.

Again, the Bible says otherwise.  1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

And Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved:

Acts 16:31 - They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

So your comments do not align with Scripture.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Theologians have made up this term but one does not need faith to be saved as there is no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants. God makes promise to Abraham and his seed and then keeps every promise He's made to Abraham and his seed.

Proven wrong by the verses I've showed you.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Only Christ can stand before a Holy God blameless.

No argument there.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

If a born-again person's sins are all paid for on the cross why do men still die? Death is the punishment for sin is it not?

Define your terms please.  Heb 9:27 says EVERYONE is appointed once to die and then the judgment.  Do you understand what all that means?

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Faith is a gift and no one who is alive physically and yet dead before God in trespasses and sin do not have faith to speak of. Faith is a gift given.

Again, please define terms.  Are you referring to the noun or verb?  Makes a big difference.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

Salvation - according to Scripture - is between God, Abraham and Abraham's seed, a people to be known as the children of Israel. As far as my reading of the Hebrew Scripture is concerned, I find no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles. None. And God has covenant with the Hebrew seed of Abraham. That's all.

Taking this at face value, then NO Gentile can ever be saved.  Have you really thought through your views?

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

The jailer would have to be the seed of Abraham for this would make him an heir of the promises. Otherwise, if the jailer was a non-Hebrew Gentiles, then Scripture (Hebrew Scripture) would be broken and Jesus said this "cannot be done."

Clearly you have no grasp of Romans 4.

3 hours ago, jeremiah1five said:

This is bible.

Rather, I have shared the Bible, and your claims do not align with it.

With all that "covenant" talk, and no requirement for faith, pretty much sounds like Calvinism, only without mentioning "election".