Transgression of Israel still prevails now until the 70th week of Daniel is finished

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Okay and thanks. 

1) I believe the kingdoms are defined by the type of metal- revealing there are 4 distinct kingdoms. 
 
2) the clay is never “one” with the iron kingdom of Rome. The Stone would strike the feet and “break them” into pieces. This is because they (iron and clay elements) can / could never be joined together (they would never  to one another). 
 

3) I don’t think they refer at all to mean “mankind.” Daniel is written to and for His people and His city. The entire OT includes many peoples and nations but everything is running through His people.

4) The striking of the feet was not to “destroy” but to “break apart” and this also means the two elements are not “as one” truly combined kingdom. 
 

5) God identified His people (not Gentile or pagans) in the OT as “clay.” God also is identified as the “Potter.”

6) God is saving them. Not in the manner they expected- come as a conquering king to battle the Romans, but spiritually as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. 
 

7) God is showing us that His people will be back in their home (Jerusalem) and is captive to  Romans. This is symbolically appropriate since they will still not become part of the Roman Empire (iron) but continue to be separate and unlike any other people ever mentioned / found in any of the 4 kingdoms. God had clearly chosen them as a “set apart” nation, and at this time in history, they are found within the Roman Empire. This seems to be a perfect way to symbolize His people within this 4th kingdom at the time of His first coming. And it is also used perfectly since “He” will identify Himself as the “Stone” that will strike this kingdom (only where His people are - not the legs of Rome) to separate them for His use. 
 

His people are mentioned in all the kingdoms- they are held captive in Babylon, they were allowed to be released by the Medes-Persians, and they are mentioned with the 3rd kingdom. Each kingdom has its own relationship and mission within God’s plan of salvation. God has designed a perfect way to reveal His people at “that time” in their history for when He will arrive. 

Agree there are differences in the way each kingdom is ruled, and that will have a “play” in how the Jews will be treated within each of the separate kingdoms, but the “management” style, if you will, does not define the unique kingdom. It is the two part identification process in chapter 2 (belt and suspenders type approach so there can be no mistake in their identity) by using a very different metal type along with a very different part (s) of a man. 

Agreed. And once again, verse 40 is confirming the 4th kingdom with the “iron”  only (strength of iron), and not with the clay element- it is found WITHIN the iron kingdom but NOT of the iron kingdom. 

I think there is sufficient information within chapter 2 to be able to identify the 4 separate kingdoms. Daniel is written to the Jews and His city before His first coming. It begins with their captivity in Babylon and almost all of Daniel will speak to period ending with the completion of the 70 weeks of years prophecy in 33 / 34 AD (3.5 years after the Cross).
 

Agreed. But the Stone was “cut out” of the Mountain. The Messiah and God are one and the same. Jesus did not come to rule the earth as His people expected  Him to come. However, He did “set up” His earthly kingdom and had made a way for both Jew and Gentile to be saved. Those of His people that would come to accept Him as their Messiah would go out into the world and preach the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus (referred to as “pottery clay versus those who would reject Him - “ceramic clay”). 
 

So, in my interpretation, we have the “dream sequence” (big picture) where God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms we will find within Daniel (and remember, Daniel covers the entire period from 606 BC to His second coming so we will not add any other kingdom to these 4 for the entire period). 
 

God had also provided us with the 2 and only 2 “events” (actions) within the “Dream Sequence” - big picture that are the most important events that will ever take place WITHIN this 2600 year period. Meaning, here are the 4 borders and boundaries you NEED to consider and here are the 2 events you should consider when you these verses. When one tries to complete a large puzzle the first thing is to try and find the straight pieces that form the 4 outside borders. Here in Daniel’s puzzle are the 4 corners (kingdoms) where everything will take place, AND, He will also give us the 2 major events that divide this large puzzle into 2. The coming of the Messiah in the first century DOES indeed provide us with a well documented and identified place in WITHIN the puzzle to try and place the pieces of the puzzle. Again, most of the puzzle pieces (interpretation) will fit or be placed before the first event ( cross - 2:34). The last event 2:35 will also serve as the right side of the puzzle - the end of things. 
 

Without the cross identifying as 2:34, one would have to place almost all of the pieces as “end time events.” They would all have to be placed at or on the right end of the puzzle. But you can see that the events within the Hebrew chapters DID TAKE PLACE WITHIN (not at the end) the 4th beast kingdom. That is NOT the kingdom that will become known as papal Rome / little horn, but the 4th beast kingdom that was slain and its body destroyed- and that occurred in 476 BC. Again, this tells us that most of these puzzle pieces (interpretations) will have occurred before 476 BC. 
 

Now, that is my interpretation of the “Dream Sequence” verses in chapter 2 ONLY. Before moving on to the “Interpretation Sequence” verses (2:41-45), please let me know your thoughts on the above.

Thanks, Charlie 

 

 

I will just make some general observations as my last posting pretty much covers my view. The clay is our central point of difference

Since Israel were carried away by the first Kingdom of Daniel 2, clay should have appeared with the gold. It doesn't.

By the advent of the Roman Kingdom a small remnant of Jews had returned to the Good Land. The clay makes up part of the ten toes. That would mean that Israel belonged to Rome and matches them in their world rule. This is not the case.

Clay may well represent men, or mankind, but it belongs to Rome and not Jerusalem. Rather, the narrative shows the weakness of mixing Roman rule with mere men (democracy if you like).

Rome has not passed yet. In 313 AD it changed from armour to priests robes, but the Vatican is the single wealthiest and politically powerful entity on earth. With men's eternal future taught to be in their power, and with 1.3 billion adherents, there can be no substance to any argument that has the "little stone" in power yet.

I alluded to a possible absurdity, which you did not address (if my memory serves me). It is this. The Kingdoms arise AFTER each other. That means that when the fourth kingdom is crushed by the fifth (the little stone), how is it possible that the little stone crushes ALL FOUR? The other three have passed and cannot be engaged!

Israel's history, and prophecy, will not allow Israel to "save" anybody. The northern Kingdom was deported by the Assyrians. They never returned and became Captives of Babylon when Assyria was defeated. In view of the promise in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 that Israel would be returned to their Land if they returned to what Moses was teaching "that day" (the Law), Israel obviously did not return to even Moses, let alone Christ.

The Southern Kingdom were carried off the Babylon. Although released by cyrus, only 2.5% returned to build the second Temple and Jerusalem. 97.5% remained and were scattered to "the four winds". The Remnant that returned to Canaan were in crisis by the time Jesus came. The crisis peaked at the murder of Messiah. The resistance against Christ's Church was vicious. Then acme 70 AD and Israel were scattered again. Romans 11:25 onward predicts that Israel will stay hard till the end. There is no record of any kind of move toward Jesus by the NATION of Israel. Their recovery (Ezek.37) is a pure act of mercy says Romans 11. In verse ...

26 they need a "Deliverer". Of repentance nothing is said. They do not turn from ungodliness, but are turned by Christ

27 their sins need to be taken away by mechanism of Covenant

28 they are enemies in regard to the gospel

29 their recovery is dependent on God's actions and not theirs

30-31 they are NOT in belief

32 God CONCLUDES that there is no faith.

Israel only change course when the "Deliverer" HAS COME! Since faith is the hope of things NOT SEEN, saving faith never enters the picture for Israel as a Nation

There can be no talk of Israel taking part in the salvation of the world. Israel are a very privileged Nation. Their recovery to their National Inheritance is guaranteed. They ill host Emmanuel during the millennium. Nations will go up to Jerusalem and Israel will host them. But Israel are not party to the gospel. And the gospel age ends with the rapture.

 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I will just make some general observations as my last posting pretty much covers my view. The clay is our central point of difference

Since Israel were carried away by the first Kingdom of Daniel 2, clay should have appeared with the gold. It doesn't.

It doesn’t because God is revealing His people and their movements THROUGH  each kingdom as He wants to in order to give us the best opportunity to reveal / interpret His prophecies. Why did God choose the very different symbols for each of the 4 kingdoms in chapters 2,7 and 8? 

The Jews were sent to Babylon to punished for 70 years… in chapter 7, He reveals where they are and their different form of captivity within pagan Rome. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

By the advent of the Roman Kingdom a small remnant of Jews had returned to the Good Land. 

I believe there was a small remnant that returned from Babylon with most staying in place- they had a relatively nice and healthy life under Cyrus. But by the time of the Messiah, they were a healthy nation - in 70  AD the Roman army murdered more than a million Jews. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The clay makes up part of the ten toes.
 

Not sure I follow you here. There are three entities or elements within the feet;

1) the clay (which to me represents the Jewish nation / people that are held captive within pagan Rome,

2) there is the “iron element” which  is the continuation of the iron legs of the 4th kingdom,

3) there are the 10 toes, 

Please let me know your understanding of the identity of these 3…

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

That would mean that Israel belonged to Rome and matches them in their world rule. This is not the case.

I don’t know what you mean here. Rome conquered the entire world and Israel was no different. They were under the rule of Rome in every way the Romans desired. 
 

Have no idea what “Israel matches Rome.”

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Clay may well represent men, or mankind, but it belongs to Rome and not Jerusalem.
 

What is telling you the of the clay? Do you agree that God is writing to His people? He is providing the activity / events / movements through each of the 4 kingdoms AS THEY RELATE TO HIS PEOPLE. Also, as mentioned, can you see the relationship between the clay and the potter from Jeremiah? This symbols / metaphors are never used for Gentiles. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Rather, the narrative shows the weakness of mixing Roman rule with mere men (democracy if you like).

I don’t see that in these verses. This is at a time when Rome was at its strongest. Israel had no effect on the strength of Rome. It certainly did not dilute its power in the time of the Messiah. The reason God is using 2 different elements is to draw attention to the absolute power of mighty Rome - the 4th beast kingdom AND symbolizing His people WITHIN that kingdom and they are kept separate: The Jews were surprisingly allowed by Rome to maintain their identity - they were allowed to keep to themselves and the worship their “invisible” God. Their ceremonies, dietary laws, the 10 Commandments, their 7 Fesst days and their Sabbatical cycles were allowed to be kept. This is why the “clay” only represents His people. All other conquered nations just existed under pagan Rome and obeyed Rome in all matters. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Rome has not passed yet. In 313 AD it changed from armour to priests robes,

The Christian church that was started at the cross would change after the death of the Apostles. The church would eventually be taken over by the Gentiles and they would be successful in removing the Jews from within the church. That would take about 300 years until Constantine made Christianity the  of the Emoire.  But these events are brought out in the “Interpretation Sequence” verses in 2:41 - 44. We have yet to get through the “Dream Sequence” verses. God had given us the “big picture” or a better term is the “Blueprint or Structure” for the ENTIRE 2600 year period. If these 4 kingdoms AND the 2 major events (2:34 and 2:35) are not properly interpreted, then the rest of d the prophecies in Daniel (Hebrew chapters) will not be properly “timed and placed” WITHIN the 4 kingdom period- which is exactly what has occurred- most of Daniel has been thrown to the end times rather than to the time of His coming in the 1st century. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

but the Vatican is the single wealthiest and politically powerful entity on earth. With men's eternal future taught to be in their power, and with 1.3 billion adherents, there can be no substance to any argument that has the "little stone" in power yet.

Do not understand that s at all. The “Stone” represents the Messiah at His first coming. He had indeed “set up” His kingdom on earth but it will not be consummated until His s return. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

I alluded to a possible absurdity, which you did not address (if my memory serves me). It is this. The Kingdoms arise AFTER each other.

Agreed. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

That means that when the fourth kingdom is crushed by the fifth (the little stone), how is it possible that the little stone crushes ALL FOUR? The other three have passed and cannot be engaged!

First, there is NO 5th kingdom. There are only 4 kingdoms in the metal man image. This is why the chapter 2 image establishes the “Blueprint or the Structure” for the 4 kingdom image. It reveals these 4 will never change. They are fixed, identified in no less tha 2 very different ways so as not to be confused in any way about the number, the identity of each kingdom and the timing of each kingdom. 
 

Once again, 2:34 or the “Stone” does NOT crush or destroy the image or any of the 4 kingdoms. The Stone only breaks apart the iron and the clay elements found WITHIN the feet. 
 

Verse 2:35 represents the “crushing” of the elements into the wind at His second coming some 2000 years in the future. 

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Israel's history, and prophecy, will not allow Israel to "save" anybody

I have no idea what this means. No we’re in the Scriptures does it tell us that Israel can save the Gentile OR themselves! But God tells us that”salvation” will come “THROUGH the Jews. Wasn’t Jesus a Jew?

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

. The northern Kingdom was deported by the Assyrians. They never returned and became Captives of Babylon when Assyria was defeated. In view of the promise in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 that Israel would be returned to their Land if they returned to what Moses was teaching "that day" (the Law), Israel obviously did not return to even Moses, let alone Christ.

But this has nothing to do with Daniel.. we are discussing the verses in Daniel and what prophecies God is providing us for the next 2600 years. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The Southern Kingdom were carried off the Babylon. Although released by cyrus, only 2.5% returned to build the second Temple and Jerusalem. 97.5% remained and were scattered to "the four winds". The Remnant that returned to Canaan were in crisis by the time Jesus came. The crisis peaked at the murder of Messiah. The resistance against Christ's Church was vicious. Then acme 70 AD and Israel were scattered again. Romans 11:25 onward predicts that Israel will stay hard till the end. There is no record of any kind of move toward Jesus by the NATION of Israel. Their recovery (Ezek.37) is a pure act of mercy says Romans 11. In verse ...

Sorry, don’t know what this has taught do with the interpretations of the “Dream Sequence” verses in chapter 2. 

 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

26 they need a "Deliverer". Of repentance nothing is said. They do not turn from ungodliness, but are turned by Christ

27 their sins need to be taken away by mechanism of Covenant

28 they are enemies in regard to the gospel

29 their recovery is dependent on God's actions and not theirs

30-31 they are NOT in belief

32 God CONCLUDES that there is no faith.

I agree. The Jews rejected and crucified their Messiah and there is ONLY one way to salvation- through the blood of the Lamb of God. And because of their horrific transgression, God would remove His presence from them for the next 2000 years. The “CROSS” IS THE ABOMINATION THAT WOULD CAUSE THEIR COMPLETE DESOLATION GROM THEIR GOD FOR THE NEXT 2000 YEARS. 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Israel only change course when the "Deliverer" HAS COME! Since faith is the hope of things NOT SEEN, saving faith never enters the picture for Israel as a Nation

There can be no talk of Israel taking part in the salvation of the world. Israel are a very privileged Nation.

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

Their recovery to their National Inheritance is guaranteed. They ill host Emmanuel during the millennium. Nations will go up to Jerusalem and Israel will host them. But Israel are not party to  the gospel. And the gospel age ends with the rapture.

 

First, your responses have drifted far from chapter 2. And this usually happens when people discuss their views.  So, perhaps we might focus only on the chapter 2 verses WITHIN the “Dream Sequence” verses. If you would not mind responding to the questions I raised to your recent comments?

Look forward to your replies regarding the 4 kingdoms and the 2 events (2:34 -35).

Thanks, Charlie 

 

[AdHoc]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

nce again, 2:34 or the “Stone” does NOT crush or destroy the image or any of the 4 kingdoms. The Stone only breaks apart the iron and the clay elements found WITHIN the feet. 
 

Verse 2:35 represents the “crushing” of the elements into the wind at His second coming some 2000 years in the future. 

Hi Charlie. We've both put forward our arguments and maybe some others have profited from the exchange. As a summary of our differences, this quote of yours is closest. I will just quote the scripture involved and the difference of our understandings will immediately be ascertained.

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Verse 34: "feet that were of iron and clay AND BRAKE THEM TO PIECES"

Verse 35: "Then were ALL elements broken IN PIECES TOGETHER"

Verse 35: The pieces were ALL THE ELEMENTS were about as big as wheat husks

Verse 35: No place was found for THEM (all the elements)

The iron AND clay are one Kingdom. The clay was added later but the kingdom of iron remianed. When the iron was destroyed the clay was too. "No place was found for THEM."

I'm sorry that we cannot draw closer.

[Marilyn C]

The `iron and clay` represent the two aspects of Islam - Sunni and Shiites. 

Oct. 7 is but a taste of this terrifying beastly group which is waiting for their leader to arise. 

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

Hi Charlie. We've both put forward our arguments and maybe some others have profited from the exchange. As a summary of our differences, this quote of yours is closest. I will just quote the scripture involved and the difference of our understandings will immediately be ascertained.

 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Verse 34: "feet that were of iron and clay AND BRAKE THEM TO PIECES"

Verse 35: "Then were ALL elements broken IN PIECES TOGETHER"

Verse 35: The pieces were ALL THE ELEMENTS were about as big as wheat husks

Verse 35: No place was found for THEM (all the elements)

The iron AND clay are one Kingdom. The clay was added later but the kingdom of iron remianed. When the iron was destroyed the clay was too. "No place was found for THEM."

I'm sorry that we cannot draw closer.

No problem at all. I do understand that EVERYONE treats 2:34 and 2:35 as one and the same end time event.

I had gone through Daniel at least 100 times (specifically the Hebrew chapters) and there were many verses that I could not interpret- no  matter how I approached them, I could not find an interpretation for more than a few verses in chapters 7 and 8 (for example) that would “fit” with any interpretations in chapter 2. 
 

It was only when I took another look at 2:34 and 2:35 (since I really had skipped over them the many times I read chapter 2), that I noticed the very different wording between 34 and 35, AND the most important symbol within these verses would clearly provide the “timing” for 2:34. Everyone agrees the Stone represents the Messiah yet He is only referred to as such at His first coming. 
 

Once that became clear, it was easy to interpret the reason why Daniel specifically calls attention to the 2 separate elements of clay and iron (them). And of course, the Messiah and His people could easily be found in Jeremiah to be symbolized as the “Potter” and the clay. Further, it is no coincidence that the 10 toes are also “broken free” AFTER the Stone strikes the feet (not the toes). Then, the interpretations in the later books of Daniel came to the surface and made sense with those in chapter 2.
 

Finally, even before we would have moved on to chapter 7 to CLEARLY see how 2:34 can only speak of the Messiah’s symbolically “breaking apart the iron and the clay elements,” you MUST use this approach in interpreting 2:41-43.

So, if you would like, we can leave the 2:34 -35 issue alone and just discuss 2:41. 
 

How do you unpack or interpret 2:41?

Thanks again, Charlie 

 

[AdHoc]

10 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

No problem at all. I do understand that EVERYONE treats 2:34 and 2:35 as one and the same end time event.

I had gone through Daniel at least 100 times (specifically the Hebrew chapters) and there were many verses that I could not interpret- no  matter how I approached them, I could not find an interpretation for more than a few verses in chapters 7 and 8 (for example) that would “fit” with any interpretations in chapter 2. 
 

It was only when I took another look at 2:34 and 2:35 (since I really had skipped over them the many times I read chapter 2), that I noticed the very different wording between 34 and 35, AND the most important symbol within these verses would clearly provide the “timing” for 2:34. Everyone agrees the Stone represents the Messiah yet He is only referred to as such at His first coming. 
 

Once that became clear, it was easy to interpret the reason why Daniel specifically calls attention to the 2 separate elements of clay and iron (them). And of course, the Messiah and His people could easily be found in Jeremiah to be symbolized as the “Potter” and the clay. Further, it is no coincidence that the 10 toes are also “broken free” AFTER the Stone strikes the feet (not the toes). Then, the interpretations in the later books of Daniel came to the surface and made sense with those in chapter 2.
 

Finally, even before we would have moved on to chapter 7 to CLEARLY see how 2:34 can only speak of the Messiah’s symbolically “breaking apart the iron and the clay elements,” you MUST use this approach in interpreting 2:41-43.

So, if you would like, we can leave the 2:34 -35 issue alone and just discuss 2:41. 
 

How do you unpack or interpret 2:41?

Thanks again, Charlie 

 

To try to be fair, I propose that we use a short history of Roman government from a source that most probably has no agenda - like the following link from National Geographic;

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/romes-transition-republic-empire/

Now, GOLD is defined by the extent of Nebuchadnezzar's reign and his sovereign autocracy. We know from history AND the Bible, that Persia had a king who was, in part, subject to the nobility. SILVER designates this type of government. Rome's government is, at first, dsignated by IRON. If "miry clay" is added and the iron is not removed, the IRON type of Government is shown to have NOT CHANGED. It further says that the clay was weak, and that the clay and iron did not mate well at all. By the rules of exposition, if the IRON is a type of government, the CLAY must be an additional aspect of government, or a modification of the type of government.

This understanding is well supported by the article in the above link. Rome, initially a REPUBLIC, was interfered with by two political forces, namely DEMOCRACY and PLUTOCRACY. The constitution of a Republic is there to preserve and protect the rights of the weak and poor. Democracy demand the will of the majority and Plutocracy recognizes only the demands of the wealthy. That is, as history has shown, Republicanism can never reconcile with the other two. Notice also that a REPUBLIC is a type of government INDEPENDENT of the will of man while DEMOCRACY and PLUTOCRACY need the will of men.

I judge that Daniel 2:41 shows what happens to a kingdom when these opposing forms of government are applied concurrently. But there is an additional consideration.

It is this; Rome existed from between 500 and 700 years before Christ. It came to power about 170 BCE. In 313 AD it changed type of government to OCCULT THEOCRACY, but again men mixed in. The Roman Empire changed to "Holy Roman Empire". The High Priest of Roma donned a priest's robe but his title, Pontifex Maximus was not changed. My point with all this is that Rome went through changes from 500 BCE to today. Daniel does not try to show details. Just as Nebuchadnezzar was simply "GOLD", Rome was a constant Conqueror and Ruler of an Empire, but with men (clay) always mixing in and weakening an otherwise working government - that is, "partly strong, partly broken".

Note that this condition existed at the time the "Little Stone" arrived. That is, the mixture and its consequences was a fact long before Christ destroys Rome. Let me conclude with a very simple observation. If Christ returned today with an army from heaven the prophecies of Daniel 2 would be fulfilled to the last detail - today.

[Charlie744]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

To try to be fair, I propose that we use a short history of Roman government from a source that most probably has no agenda - like the following link from National Geographic;

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/romes-transition-republic-empire/

Now, GOLD is defined by the extent of Nebuchadnezzar's reign and his sovereign autocracy. We know from history AND the Bible, that Persia had a king who was, in part, subject to the nobility. SILVER designates this type of government. Rome's government is, at first, dsignated by IRON. If "miry clay" is added and the iron is not removed, the IRON type of Government is shown to have NOT CHANGED. It further says that the clay was weak, and that the clay and iron did not mate well at all. By the rules of exposition, if the IRON is a type of government, the CLAY must be an additional aspect of government, or a modification of the type of government.

This understanding is well supported by the article in the above link. Rome, initially a REPUBLIC, was interfered with by two political forces, namely DEMOCRACY and PLUTOCRACY. The constitution of a Republic is there to preserve and protect the rights of the weak and poor. Democracy demand the will of the majority and Plutocracy recognizes only the demands of the wealthy. That is, as history has shown, Republicanism can never reconcile with the other two. Notice also that a REPUBLIC is a type of government INDEPENDENT of the will of man while DEMOCRACY and PLUTOCRACY need the will of men.

I judge that Daniel 2:41 shows what happens to a kingdom when these opposing forms of government are applied concurrently. But there is an additional consideration.

It is this; Rome existed from between 500 and 700 years before Christ. It came to power about 170 BCE. In 313 AD it changed type of government to OCCULT THEOCRACY, but again men mixed in. The Roman Empire changed to "Holy Roman Empire". The High Priest of Roma donned a priest's robe but his title, Pontifex Maximus was not changed. My point with all this is that Rome went through changes from 500 BCE to today. Daniel does not try to show details. Just as Nebuchadnezzar was simply "GOLD", Rome was a constant Conqueror and Ruler of an Empire, but with men (clay) always mixing in and weakening an otherwise working government - that is, "partly strong, partly broken".

Note that this condition existed at the time the "Little Stone" arrived. That is, the mixture and its consequences was a fact long before Christ destroys Rome. Let me conclude with a very simple observation. If Christ returned today with an army from heaven the prophecies of Daniel 2 would be fulfilled to the last detail - today.

Thanks for your response! Please consider the following comments I would like to make:

1) It seems clear that you are looking at these verses in a “historical / secular / political way. (If you disagree please let me know). 
 

To be candid, I believe most commentators interpret Daniel in a historical manner, where the “kingdoms” and the actors within those kingdoms become or are the focus of Daniel. They become the story, rather than looking for the Messiah WITHIN AND THROUGH THESE KINGDOMS. 

And this is why I came to reject “today’s accepted interpretations.” God is using these 4 and only 4 kingdoms to present His prophecies for His people and His first coming. They are symbols that allow us to place His prophecies at the right time in history and in relation to His people as they move through these 4 kingdoms. 
 

Certainly, there are many studies that have compared the different characteristics of the 4 metals, whether by their relative strength, value, density, etc., and the different way each kingdom is ruled. But they are not the story. 
 

God will tell His story as His people are returning from captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem DURING these coming 1100 years (606 BC to ~ 500 AD when the little horn comes to power). But MOST of Daniel is designed to cover / speak to the 70 weeks of years prophecy WITHIN these 1100 years. This prophecy begins in 457 BC to 33 / 34’AD- 3.5 years after the Cross . 
 

The overall theme is quite clear- It is written about the Jews being taken captive, the length of their punishment and His plan to restore His people, His city, all of the Levitical ceremonies and practices, the Sabbatical cycles, their way of life as it was prior to Babylon WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT PURPOSE IN MAN’S history- the arrival of the Messiah and His ministry on earth DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE. 

Daniel is not a history lesson or study. It does not have to (and does not) follow and stay in line with our history books. God will and has used / selected those historical actors, events and kingdoms AS HE CHOOSES to present His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind. Thus, He can include and exclude whatever has or will take place that is relevant to His plan. 

2) And this brings me to the second critical error in determining “today’s accepted interpretations.” They have failed to look for the Messiah in Daniel. This is His story not a history lesson about the 4 kingdoms, etc. 

So, these verses in 2:41-43 as well as those in the coming chapters of 7,8 9 and 11 MUST all speak to one theme, have one focus, be consistent in the prophecies without any conflict among them, stay within their boundaries and borders a established in chapter 2, and understand they are ALL ABOUT THE COMING MESSIAH AND HIS PLAN OF RESTORATION AND SALVATION. 

Verses 2:41 -43 are some of the most difficult to interpret (they were for me) but only until 2:34 was found to represent His first coming as the Stone that broke apart, not the image, but only the iron and clay elements in the feet.

So although you and EVERYONE agree that 2:34 and 2:35 are not the same  end time event, then 2:41 will not support 2;34 and it too is thrown into the future. But it can be interpreted and not treated as a “general” interpretation thrown in the future without any real meaning behind it. God is very  with His prophecies and has a purpose for each he  term, phrase and word in 2:41 and, of course, every verse.

Verse 2:41 speaks directly to the results of the elements (iron and clay) AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN  INTO PIECES or SYMBOLICALLY SEPARATED FROM THE IRON KINGDOM OF ROME. And this ACTION that caused this is 2:34 -the Cross (the Stone striking the feet).

So, if you would like to help me break down 2:41 with you that might be interesting:

1) .. you saw the feet and toes…

Again, this is being discussed because it does NOT represent an end time event, but one that occurred AFTER THE CROSS symbolically separated the 2 elements in the feet. 
 

2) … the feet were composed of “partly of “potters clay” and partly of clay… 

Here is the composition of the FEET NOT THE KINGDOM. The 4th kingdom is Rome of iron. The clay element is WITHIN THIS 4th kingdom- it is symbolically held captive within Rome (Jews are captive within Rome— and again, the storyline is about their (Jews) restoration from Babylon. It is almost complete with ONLY the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah to be fulfilled at the first day of the 70th week)

    a) who are the iron in the feet?

    b) who are the clay within the feet? 
 

    c) where did the “pottery clay” come from?

    d) did you notice that the “pottery clay” is now found / shown in a “superior” position to that of the iron?

    e) in the “Dream Sequence” of verse 2:33 (where God established the 4 kingdoms AND its structure AND its borders and boundaries), He revealed the 4th kingdom was made of “legs of iron and feet “partly IRON AND PARTLY CLAY.” There was no mention of the type of clay in the “Dream Sequence” (image BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), and the order of the iron was in a superior position to that of the clay- the iron was dominant to that of the clay in this 4th kingdom (BEFORE THE STONE).
 

3) Here in 2:41, which is the first verse in the “Interpretation Sequence” verses (details of events that would take place WITHIN the “Dream Sequence” verse above, it now reveals the specific type of clay and a change in the position of the two different elements. Why? What has caused this and what is the significance of these changes? What is God revealing to us about this 4th kingdom?

4) …. The kingdom shall be divided… This is very interesting! Why is this 4th kingdom being “SYMBOLICALLY” divided? When did this occur? Why did God divide this kingdom?

5) … yet the strength of the  IRON  shall be in it, JUST AS YOU SAW THE IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY… 

      Wow, there is a lot going on here! What does all of this mean?

       a) Whst is meant by this “strength”?

       b) Why is God telling us this “divided” kingdom will continue to have this “strength” within it?

       c) Here God is telling us the “kingdom that you saw” (Nebuchadnezzar saw IN THE DREAM SEQUENCE BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), was composed of IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY. Where and who is this “ceramic clay”?

     d) What has changed in this 4th kingdom- gone from “ceramic clay” to “pottery clay” and why? 
 

With all due respect, these verses have not been addressed or properly interpreted by any of the scholars, academics, or theologians that have produced THEIR ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS OF 2:41. 
 

They have been “generally” treated as “must be end time events when the Messiah will return.”

Please consider the above and you can easily understand just how difficult and complicated this verse is to unpack. And it can not be done UNLESS one treats 2:34 as the Stone (Messiah) breaks the iron and the clay (only) into pieces at His first coming.

Look forward to your or anyone else’s thoughts and opinions. It is one thing to make a very general interpretation of these verses and throw them into the future, it is another thing to break them down in the time they occurred and their spiritual interpretation found within. 

 

 

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks for your response! Please consider the following comments I would like to make:

1) It seems clear that you are looking at these verses in a “historical / secular / political way. (If you disagree please let me know). 
 

To be candid, I believe most commentators interpret Daniel in a historical manner, where the “kingdoms” and the actors within those kingdoms become or are the focus of Daniel. They become the story, rather than looking for the Messiah WITHIN AND THROUGH THESE KINGDOMS. 

And this is why I came to reject “today’s accepted interpretations.” God is using these 4 and only 4 kingdoms to present His prophecies for His people and His first coming. They are symbols that allow us to place His prophecies at the right time in history and in relation to His people as they move through these 4 kingdoms. 
 

Certainly, there are many studies that have compared the different characteristics of the 4 metals, whether by their relative strength, value, density, etc., and the different way each kingdom is ruled. But they are not the story. 
 

God will tell His story as His people are returning from captivity in Babylon to Jerusalem DURING these coming 1100 years (606 BC to ~ 500 AD when the little horn comes to power). But MOST of Daniel is designed to cover / speak to the 70 weeks of years prophecy WITHIN these 1100 years. This prophecy begins in 457 BC to 33 / 34’AD- 3.5 years after the Cross . 
 

The overall theme is quite clear- It is written about the Jews being taken captive, the length of their punishment and His plan to restore His people, His city, all of the Levitical ceremonies and practices, the Sabbatical cycles, their way of life as it was prior to Babylon WITH THE MOST IMPORTANT PURPOSE IN MAN’S history- the arrival of the Messiah and His ministry on earth DURING THE LAST WEEK OF THE. 

Daniel is not a history lesson or study. It does not have to (and does not) follow and stay in line with our history books. God will and has used / selected those historical actors, events and kingdoms AS HE CHOOSES to present His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and mankind. Thus, He can include and exclude whatever has or will take place that is relevant to His plan. 

2) And this brings me to the second critical error in determining “today’s accepted interpretations.” They have failed to look for the Messiah in Daniel. This is His story not a history lesson about the 4 kingdoms, etc. 

So, these verses in 2:41-43 as well as those in the coming chapters of 7,8 9 and 11 MUST all speak to one theme, have one focus, be consistent in the prophecies without any conflict among them, stay within their boundaries and borders a established in chapter 2, and understand they are ALL ABOUT THE COMING MESSIAH AND HIS PLAN OF RESTORATION AND SALVATION. 

Verses 2:41 -43 are some of the most difficult to interpret (they were for me) but only until 2:34 was found to represent His first coming as the Stone that broke apart, not the image, but only the iron and clay elements in the feet.

So although you and EVERYONE agree that 2:34 and 2:35 are not the same  end time event, then 2:41 will not support 2;34 and it too is thrown into the future. But it can be interpreted and not treated as a “general” interpretation thrown in the future without any real meaning behind it. God is very  with His prophecies and has a purpose for each he  term, phrase and word in 2:41 and, of course, every verse.

Verse 2:41 speaks directly to the results of the elements (iron and clay) AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN  INTO PIECES or SYMBOLICALLY SEPARATED FROM THE IRON KINGDOM OF ROME. And this ACTION that caused this is 2:34 -the Cross (the Stone striking the feet).

So, if you would like to help me break down 2:41 with you that might be interesting:

1) .. you saw the feet and toes…

Again, this is being discussed because it does NOT represent an end time event, but one that occurred AFTER THE CROSS symbolically separated the 2 elements in the feet. 
 

2) … the feet were composed of “partly of “potters clay” and partly of clay… 

Here is the composition of the FEET NOT THE KINGDOM. The 4th kingdom is Rome of iron. The clay element is WITHIN THIS 4th kingdom- it is symbolically held captive within Rome (Jews are captive within Rome— and again, the storyline is about their (Jews) restoration from Babylon. It is almost complete with ONLY the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah to be fulfilled at the first day of the 70th week)

    a) who are the iron in the feet?

    b) who are the clay within the feet? 
 

    c) where did the “pottery clay” come from?

    d) did you notice that the “pottery clay” is now found / shown in a “superior” position to that of the iron?

    e) in the “Dream Sequence” of verse 2:33 (where God established the 4 kingdoms AND its structure AND its borders and boundaries), He revealed the 4th kingdom was made of “legs of iron and feet “partly IRON AND PARTLY CLAY.” There was no mention of the type of clay in the “Dream Sequence” (image BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), and the order of the iron was in a superior position to that of the clay- the iron was dominant to that of the clay in this 4th kingdom (BEFORE THE STONE).
 

3) Here in 2:41, which is the first verse in the “Interpretation Sequence” verses (details of events that would take place WITHIN the “Dream Sequence” verse above, it now reveals the specific type of clay and a change in the position of the two different elements. Why? What has caused this and what is the significance of these changes? What is God revealing to us about this 4th kingdom?

4) …. The kingdom shall be divided… This is very interesting! Why is this 4th kingdom being “SYMBOLICALLY” divided? When did this occur? Why did God divide this kingdom?

5) … yet the strength of the  IRON  shall be in it, JUST AS YOU SAW THE IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY… 

      Wow, there is a lot going on here! What does all of this mean?

       a) Whst is meant by this “strength”?

       b) Why is God telling us this “divided” kingdom will continue to have this “strength” within it?

       c) Here God is telling us the “kingdom that you saw” (Nebuchadnezzar saw IN THE DREAM SEQUENCE BEFORE THE STONE STRUCK THE FEET), was composed of IRON MIXED WITH CERAMIC CLAY. Where and who is this “ceramic clay”?

     d) What has changed in this 4th kingdom- gone from “ceramic clay” to “pottery clay” and why? 
 

With all due respect, these verses have not been addressed or properly interpreted by any of the scholars, academics, or theologians that have produced THEIR ACCEPTED INTERPRETATIONS OF 2:41. 
 

They have been “generally” treated as “must be end time events when the Messiah will return.”

Please consider the above and you can easily understand just how difficult and complicated this verse is to unpack. And it can not be done UNLESS one treats 2:34 as the Stone (Messiah) breaks the iron and the clay (only) into pieces at His first coming.

Look forward to your or anyone else’s thoughts and opinions. It is one thing to make a very general interpretation of these verses and throw them into the future, it is another thing to break them down in the time they occurred and their spiritual interpretation found within. 

 

 

I respect your studies and I respect your decision to reject current majority explanations.

You have seen my style. If you browse back you will see that I followed the wording, grammar and logical implications. I have been studying the Bible since summer 1982 and I find no reason to change that style. It is clear that I will reach a different conclusion to you. Prophecy is there to transfer information about events and the test is history (Deut.18:22). Daniel predicts the future for the following gentile Empires and is written in their language of the day - Aramaic. Daniel also predicts the future of "Daniel's People" and some events have no record in history. They are written in Hebrew and because the Book is sealed, they will remain a mystery until God reveals.

I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas we have had, but am not prepared to deviate from the first line of grammar and the prohibition in 2nd Peter 1:20. There is much "Symbolism" in prophecy, but the fulfillment is always a coherent and literal fulfillment. I know that I have much to still learn, but Daniel, the way the majority of scholars since the Reformation, and especially the last 200 years, have explained it, is my choice (with small changes which every student has). I think men like G.H. Pember and Sir Robert Anderson, were faithful to what was written. If my God has clouded the issue and those who stuck to the wording and grammar are blinded, I bow to that as well.

If the Bible says "Thou shalt not murder", I take it like that, precisely. I find no "symbolic meaning" and will not apply any allegory to so plain a statement. If the scriptures under study are obscure, I interpret using only the Bible and nature (2nd Pet.1.20, Rom.1:18-22).

May we both arrive at that great and fateful day having seen what Jehovah wanted us to see. And may Jehovah bless your efforts.

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I respect your studies and I respect your decision to reject current majority explanations.

You have seen my style. If you browse back you will see that I followed the wording, grammar and logical implications. I have been studying the Bible since summer 1982 and I find no reason to change that style. It is clear that I will reach a different conclusion to you. Prophecy is there to transfer information about events and the test is history (Deut.18:22). Daniel predicts the future for the following gentile Empires and is written in their language of the day - Aramaic. Daniel also predicts the future of "Daniel's People" and some events have no record in history. They are written in Hebrew and because the Book is sealed, they will remain a mystery until God reveals.

I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas we have had, but am not prepared to deviate from the first line of grammar and the prohibition in 2nd Peter 1:20. There is much "Symbolism" in prophecy, but the fulfillment is always a coherent and literal fulfillment. I know that I have much to still learn, but Daniel, the way the majority of scholars since the Reformation, and especially the last 200 years, have explained it, is my choice (with small changes which every student has). I think men like G.H. Pember and Sir Robert Anderson, were faithful to what was written. If my God has clouded the issue and those who stuck to the wording and grammar are blinded, I bow to that as well.

If the Bible says "Thou shalt not murder", I take it like that, precisely. I find no "symbolic meaning" and will not apply any allegory to so plain a statement. If the scriptures under study are obscure, I interpret using only the Bible and nature (2nd Pet.1.20, Rom.1:18-22).

May we both arrive at that great and fateful day having seen what Jehovah wanted us to see. And may Jehovah bless your efforts.

Thank you very much for your response. You certainly have a wonderful way of communicating your thoughts… very nice!

I appreciate the time and consideration you have given during this exercise. Best wishes always and I hope to continue reading more of your thoughts and opinions in this site, Charlie 

[abcdef]

 

The 70 weeks were ended in 37 AD when most of Israel rejected the new covenant that was confirmed by Jesus, Gal 3:17.

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It is important to remember that there are 2 Israels. One is believing Israel in the kingdom and the other is unbelieving Israel.

Some seem to think that all of Israel was cut off, but there were thousands of the children of Israel who entered the kingdom, 3000 of Pentecost alone.

Then faithful Israel (Woman Rev 12) fled from the Romans into the gentile nations after 70 AD.  So there were thousands and thousands of Israel who remained faithful.

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The (P)prince who brings the armies is Jesus coming as God and destroying Jerusalem and the temple. The people of the (P)prince are Roman armies brought by God. In history this is not new for Israel. It has happened many times before that God has brought gentile armies to bring His children to repentance, Ezek 38:4 for example.

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This is not hard. Either the 70 weeks ended exactly when they were supposed to or they didn't.

If they did end, then the prophecies are true.

If they didn't end, but kept going, then the 70 weeks turns into more than 70 weeks, making the prophecy longer than 70 weeks, with the result of making the prophecy a false prophecy.

There can be no "gap", that is a theory with no real support in the context. 

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The Dan 9, 70 weeks has nothing to do with the 3 1/2 or 7 times in the Revelation. The numbers are similar, but are used for different time periods.

The 70 weeks prophecy takes place around the time of Jesus, the Prince. The prophecy ended in 37 AD when most in Israel rejected the new Pentecost covenant. As a result of that rejection, Jerusalem fell and was made desolate in 70 AD completing the final part of the prophecy.

The 3 1/2 times of the Revelation is about the times of the gentiles and the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel, 70 AD-1967.