Neighbor Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 962 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,724 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,117 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Where, within God's word the Bible, is the justification for that part of the preamble to the USA declaration of independence that declares all men are created equal, along with rights for personal happiness, to be found? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -Preamble to the Declaration of Independence Is there truth to this preamble? Has God given certain "rights" to all men? What of life itself? And liberty, does God grant liberty? If it is so, just where is it found in the Bible that happiness, liberty and life are all rights granted to all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,265 Content Per Day: 2.89 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 The preamble does not have any Biblical justification despite the appeal to a "Creator". It's a deeply humanistic concept stemming from the Enlightenment. God grants us life, but he clearly can demand our lives at his pleasure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,273 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,898 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 3 hours ago, Neighbor said: Is there truth to this preamble? Has God given certain "rights" to all men? What of life itself? And liberty, does God grant liberty? If it is so, just where is it found in the Bible that happiness, liberty and life are all rights granted to all? Never heard anyone question our Preamble before but here's my take. The fact you posted here tells me you have been granted life, created by God, and the choice you made to start this dissection of the Declaration of Independence speaks of your liberties to do so. Galatians 5:1 "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Concerning the pursuit of happiness, with our freedoms in this country, God shows us how to pursue it, as granted by His word; Just a few. Psalm 37: 4 "Take delight in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." Ecclesiastes 9:7 "Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do." Psalm 34: 5 "Those who look to him for help will be radiant with joy; no shadow of shame will darken their faces." Romans 15: 13 "May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." Psalm 119: 1-3 "Joyful are people of integrity who follow the instructions of the Lord. Joyful are those who obey his laws and search for him with all their hearts. They do not compromise with evil, and they walk only in his paths." Psalm 16:20 "Those who listen to instruction will prosper; those who trust the Lord will be joyful." Thanks Neighbor...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sower Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 14 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,273 Content Per Day: 0.97 Reputation: 5,898 Days Won: 1 Joined: 07/09/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 1 hour ago, teddyv said: The preamble does not have any Biblical justification despite the appeal to a "Creator". It's a deeply humanistic concept stemming from the Enlightenment. You say; deeply humanistic concept (jealous?)....... You need to be an American patriot to understand, like saying the pledge of allegiance, or singing America! America! God shed His grace on thee And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea.... It's true teddy, God has shed his Grace on America and blessed this country mightily. (humanisticaly speaking, of course.........) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,265 Content Per Day: 2.89 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Sower said: You say; deeply humanistic concept (jealous?)....... You need to be an American patriot to understand, like saying the pledge of allegiance, or singing America! America! God shed His grace on thee And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea.... It's true teddy, God has shed his Grace on America and blessed this country mightily. (humanisticaly speaking, of course.........) That sounds like idolatry to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,361 Content Per Day: 7.12 Reputation: 13,404 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sower said: You say; deeply humanistic concept (jealous?)....... You need to be an American patriot to understand, like saying the pledge of allegiance, or singing America! America! God shed His grace on thee And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea.... It's true teddy, God has shed his Grace on America and blessed this country mightily. (humanisticaly speaking, of course.........) @teddyv made a factually correct assertion and you accuse him of jealousy? It's true: The Enlightenment, fomented by French philosophers' discontent with monarchial Europe, was a humanistic movement. Furthermore, the Enlightenment influenced key members of the nascent United States such as Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, et. al., and served as the philosophical basis for the foundation of the United States. Additionally, the Deism of those same individuals was an outgrowth of the humanistic Enlightenment and was inseminated in that preamble. Deism is not Christian at all. Thomas Jefferson in particular stands out for his Deist beliefs and practices. Edited December 10, 2023 by Marathoner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,718 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,535 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted December 10, 2023 Anyone who thinks these are not in the Bible, does not believe in heaven, or even in Christ. Now before you come down on me, let me ask you, do you believe Christ offers salvation from death? Is that not life, true life? Does this salvation also give you freedom from sin? Does it not give you a place in heaven? Do you not think heaven is going to be a happy place? Or do you plan to be miserable there? If you believe in the above then you believe in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness as well. Just unlike most of the world we just realize we can't obtain true life, liberty, nor happiness while here on earth. Those are the very thing Christ offers us in salvation. The founding fathers were in essence trying to at least partially model that. Now, was their definition God's definition? No they were trying to offer us those things here on earth, because they can't offer us heaven, but it was indeed their model. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teddyv Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 4,265 Content Per Day: 2.89 Reputation: 2,302 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/03/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted December 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, The_Patriot21 said: Anyone who thinks these are not in the Bible, does not believe in heaven, or even in Christ. Now before you come down on me, let me ask you, do you believe Christ offers salvation from death? Is that not life, true life? Does this salvation also give you freedom from sin? Does it not give you a place in heaven? Do you not think heaven is going to be a happy place? Or do you plan to be miserable there? If you believe in the above then you believe in the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness as well. Just unlike most of the world we just realize we can't obtain true life, liberty, nor happiness while here on earth. Those are the very thing Christ offers us in salvation. The founding fathers were in essence trying to at least partially model that. Now, was their definition God's definition? No they were trying to offer us those things here on earth, because they can't offer us heaven, but it was indeed their model. The Bible does not support these as absolute rights. Salvation is by grace, a gift of God, not by some declaration a selection of deists, theists and miscellaneous others. God desires the best for us, but that often means suffering into this world (Jeremiah, Job, etc). It is explicitly stated that we will experience suffering for the faith. I don't disagree with the intent of the US declaration as it is an excellent document for the basis of a more equitable society. Of course, it still took them a lot of time to even figure out the equitable part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlade Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 2,238 Content Per Day: 1.35 Reputation: 1,141 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/06/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1961 Share Posted December 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Neighbor said: Where, within God's word the Bible, is the justification for that part of the preamble to the USA declaration of independence that declares all men are created equal, along with rights for personal happiness, to be found? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -Preamble to the Declaration of Independence Is there truth to this preamble? Has God given certain "rights" to all men? What of life itself? And liberty, does God grant liberty? If it is so, just where is it found in the Bible that happiness, liberty and life are all rights granted to all? Ever read the letters they wrote as they were first coming to the new world (America)? The covenant they wanted to make with God? So beautiful anyway did you look into "liberty" and all created "equal" etc? First you have to go back in time to just who were these people and where were they coming from? How was the "Church" back then blah blah blah. It was not like it is today nor was it like when the 12/120/3000 walked this earth. that thought, idea, dream was not of man but God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael37 Posted December 10, 2023 Group: Servant Followers: 21 Topic Count: 245 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 7,036 Content Per Day: 3.28 Reputation: 4,946 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2018 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/23/1954 Share Posted December 10, 2023 7 hours ago, Neighbor said: the pursuit of Happiness." . . . hence the need for peacemakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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