WHAT IS TRUE?

[choir loft]

The subject for discussion here is, WHAT IS TRUE.

1918 US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson is purported to have said: The first casualty when war comes, is truth.

It isn't meant to be a logical or religious or philosophical definition of truth itself, but rather a cultural one - one more political than scientific and one more subjective than objective.

It has been said that PERCEPTION IS REALITY, meaning that one's opinion on a subject is normally based upon attitude rather than evidence.  

"What a fool believes, no wise man can reason away." (Doobie Brothers song of the year 1988)

In this first quarter of the 21st century, we find ourselves subject to manipulation at every level.  

- Retail advertising is designed to encourage us to part with our hard earned money (or revolving credit) to buy things we don't really need.  

- Reelection campaigns promote those who hope to gain an advantage in society.  Contributors donate millions of dollars to their favorite candidate who in turn exposes us, the gullible American public, into voting them into office - whereupon they will act according to the desires of their contributors rather than in the best interests of the voters.    Does it work any other way?  Certainly not in 21st century America.

- Religion is no less active in the arena of attempts to manipulate its captive audience.   Unfortunately in this day and age it doesn't seem to be as expert in manipulation as it competitors for public attention.  Declining regular attendance proves this point true.

- Government manipulation is at an all time high - being dedicated to selling the general population on the necessity of continued undeclared war upon any party or nation that opposes the national interests of our mega corporations, military and intelligence community, to the detriment of maintenance of public infrastructure, the defense of our borders and public safety.

The impetus of this manipulation is a principle of propaganda called PERCEPTION OF REALITY.  

"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." (H. L. Mencken)

Any and every device known to man is employed to pervert the sense of tradition and what is commonly thought to be truth.  In the end truth itself is the first casualty.  It's obvious to everyone that there are more churches and church denominations in America than one can shake a stick at....more excuses for continuation of war than there are proofs... and more reasons to doubt everything than there are TV stations on our cable or internet feed....and almost every one of them quotes the Bible in one fashion or another to justify its erroneous manipulations.

So what is true?

How do we tell the difference when even the Great Opposer has quoted scripture to the Son of God so as to manipulate Him to lawless action?

Is scripture a reliable benchmark of truth or is there something else ... or a combination of sources ... or nothing at all?

Which is it?  Which should we embrace and which should we deny?  Bear in mind that scripture alone cannot provide guidance because every tyrant and con artist also quotes scripture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, choir loft said:

The subject for discussion here is, WHAT IS TRUE.

1918 US Senator Hiram Warren Johnson is purported to have said: The first casualty when war comes, is truth.

It isn't meant to be a logical or religious or philosophical definition of truth itself, but rather a cultural one - one more political than scientific and one more subjective than objective.

It has been said that PERCEPTION IS REALITY, meaning that one's opinion on a subject is normally based upon attitude rather than evidence.  

"What a fool believes, no wise man can reason away." (Doobie Brothers song of the year 1988)

In this first quarter of the 21st century, we find ourselves subject to manipulation at every level.  

- Retail advertising is designed to encourage us to part with our hard earned money (or revolving credit) to buy things we don't really need.  

- Reelection campaigns promote those who hope to gain an advantage in society.  Contributors donate millions of dollars to their favorite candidate who in turn exposes us, the gullible American public, into voting them into office - whereupon they will act according to the desires of their contributors rather than in the best interests of the voters.    Does it work any other way?  Certainly not in 21st century America.

- Religion is no less active in the arena of attempts to manipulate its captive audience.   Unfortunately in this day and age it doesn't seem to be as expert in manipulation as it competitors for public attention.  Declining regular attendance proves this point true.

- Government manipulation is at an all time high - being dedicated to selling the general population on the necessity of continued undeclared war upon any party or nation that opposes the national interests of our mega corporations, military and intelligence community, to the detriment of maintenance of public infrastructure, the defense of our borders and public safety.

The impetus of this manipulation is a principle of propaganda called PERCEPTION OF REALITY.  

"The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth." (H. L. Mencken)

Any and every device known to man is employed to pervert the sense of tradition and what is commonly thought to be truth.  In the end truth itself is the first casualty.  It's obvious to everyone that there are more churches and church denominations in America than one can shake a stick at....more excuses for continuation of war than there are proofs... and more reasons to doubt everything than there are TV stations on our cable or internet feed....and almost every one of them quotes the Bible in one fashion or another to justify its erroneous manipulations.

So what is true?

How do we tell the difference when even the Great Opposer has quoted scripture to the Son of God so as to manipulate Him to lawless action?

Is scripture a reliable benchmark of truth or is there something else ... or a combination of sources ... or nothing at all?

Which is it?  Which should we embrace and which should we deny?  Bear in mind that scripture alone cannot provide guidance because every tyrant and con artist also quotes scripture.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Shalom, choir loft.

The first order of business is to understand that "Truth" is a PERSON, not a concept. Take HIS teachings as truth first, and then supplement them with the rest of the Bible. Thus, start with the Gospels - ALL FOUR of them - and then read Proverbs and the Psalms, particularly those written by David. Saturate your mind with GOD'S Truth first, and let Him FILL your mind with what is right. Remember:

Philippians 4:4-9 (KJV)

4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation (fairness) be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Sometimes, we need to BLOCK OUT all of the distractions found in the news, in advertisements, in TV shows, in movies, in sports, etc., and just get alone with God.

Eventually, we will see the truth again, and when we look at what others are saying, who are telling the truth and who are speaking lies will become VIVIDLY apparent!

[choir loft]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

The first order of business is to understand that "Truth" is a PERSON, not a concept. Take HIS teachings as truth first, and then supplement them with the rest of the Bible. Thus, start with the Gospels - ALL FOUR of them - and then read Proverbs and the Psalms, particularly those written by David. Saturate your mind with GOD'S Truth first, and let Him FILL your mind with what is right. Remember:

Philippians 4:4-9 (KJV)

4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: [and] again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation (fairness) be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Sometimes, we need to BLOCK OUT all of the distractions found in the news, in advertisements, in TV shows, in movies, in sports, etc., and just get alone with God.

Eventually, we will see the truth again, and when we look at what others are saying, who are telling the truth and who are speaking lies will become VIVIDLY apparent!

You are way off the rails on this.     

My post isn't an attempt to affirm religious convictions, but to determine how to sift through all the chaff and rhetoric that is presented to us by the world.   May I remind you, sir, that the world does NOT recognize Jesus as being the personification of what is essentially an abstract concept.   This is why we endure murder thievery lies and why we, including most Christians in America, glorify war and those who participate in it.  

If peacemakers are the sons of God, then who are those who glorify and promote war?  Is not the pursuit of American wars nothing less than the manipulation of an entire population into believing a lie?  How do we determine the truth of things?  What measure do we use?

Most who read John 14:6 misrepresent and misunderstand what the Son of Man was saying to His Talmudim *.   What is truth?   If Jesus claimed to BE the truth, then we need to know what truth IS do we not? 

Truth is that which is consistent with what is. (def: Merriam Webster dictionary)

Let's be clear on this.  When Jesus said He IS the truth He was saying He is consistent with what IS.  Within the context of the religious conversation He was having with His Talmudim He was saying He and the Father are the same thing - the same person.  Jews of the time disbelieved it. Christians today don't understand it.  Instead they content themselves with parroting words they do not comprehend.

Within the context of atomic physics, any scientific physicist can also lay claim to the truth when He publishes a scientific paper on his discoveries.  The same is true for any field of endeavor humans may attempt or discover including the local auto mechanic.  Context is important here when referring to the person and nature of Christ or anything else.  

Discernment is also important when we attempt to discover the manipulations of society, politicians, the government, our schools and even our religious institutions.   Most of the time most of them are NOT true.  Variations and exceptions are the rule in 21st century America.  Most of them now have an agenda that is inconsistent with what IS - inconsistent with God's Holy LAW.

This is my point here.  This is what I'm trying to illicit from readers and posters.  What is true in society and what isn't?  What benchmark do we use to determine we aren't being conned into believing and acting upon something that IS NOT......true?

According to the Bible, God's LAW is the benchmark for all things moral and spiritual.  Unfortunately the church now completely denies the LAW as do many Jews (some Reform Jews deny Torah and Adonai altogether).  These are the days of lawlessness - not violence alone, though that is certainly on the rise, but of the lawlessness that results from refusal to be bound by God's LAW any more.

(There are videos on YouTube showing satanists and representatives of the Gay Agenda in the act of tearing to pieces a copy of the Bible.  While Christians and Jews may look upon this with horrified eyes, they DO THE SAME THING in their solemn assemblies when they reject God's LAW or make excuses for ignoring it in their hearts and with their mouths.)

The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom everything that causes SIN, and those who commit lawlessness (Matthew 13:41).  The wages of SIN is death. (Romans 6:23)

Therefore since we have all REJECTED any representation of truth whether it be an abstract concept, the Son of Man or the LAW itself how are we to judge what we're being told?

Pointing to a dead guy on a stick won't persuade those who deny any and all legal and moral standards of behavior.

What do we do?

Do we accept God's LAW as a personal benchmark or do we sit on the fence and watch the world circle the drain of history?

Choose wisely, for it is God who will ultimately judge US according to what we've done with the salvation He's provided.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Talmudim - (def) a disciple or student.  

In the context of the time of the gospels, Talmudim were those who had attached themselves to a teacher (Rabbi) for the purposes of learning philosophy, religious laws (mitzvah) and history.  While modern Judaism continues  to support formal learning in its Yeshivas (rabbinical schools), Christians make little or no effort to do so.  Some churches deny the veracity of any formal education at all (ie: Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas).  All students typically choose an institution or teacher for learning.  Jesus turned the process on its head when He chose His students instead of them choosing Him.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by choir loft
verb tense and punctuation

[Who me]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:30 PM, choir loft said:

So what is true?

As retobyter has said Truth is Jesus.

You rejected that saying a secular world does not recognise Jesus.

You also make a blanket claim that churches tear up God's law. So what, an unknown offence committed  by unknown parties on unknown dates, is laughable.

That a secular world does not recognise  Jesus is to be expected, they are following there master the devil.

 

Your accusation of churches sounds like you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

It is not churches God is interested in but people.

 

[Retrobyter]

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You are way off the rails on this.     

My post isn't an attempt to affirm religious convictions, but to determine how to sift through all the chaff and rhetoric that is presented to us by the world.   May I remind you, sir, that the world does NOT recognize Jesus as being the personification of what is essentially an abstract concept.   This is why we endure murder thievery lies and why we, including most Christians in America, glorify war and those who participate in it.  

Shalom, choir loft.

Where do you think determining "how to sift through all the chaff" comes from? We can only do it if our heads are "screwed on the right way!" Also, I'm a literalist. One doesn't have "convictions" if he's not been "convicted" of something. We cannot sift through ANYTHING if we have not received wisdom from God, which are really philosophical stances we take, based upon God's ABSOLUTE commands. The world suffers sins and the results from sin BECAUSE they've lost their moorings in NOT recognizing that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") is not just the personification of Truth, but actually IS the source of all Truth!

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

If peacemakers are the sons of God, then who are those who glorify and promote war?  Is not the pursuit of American wars nothing less than the manipulation of an entire population into believing a lie?  How do we determine the truth of things?  What measure do we use?

Wars, like guns, are TOOLS to protect one's innocent people and to defeat foes who WON'T back off! Just as guns are at the individual level, wars are at the national level. Paul said,

Romans 12:18 (KJV)

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

He said this KNOWING that this was not a "law" to believers, but was a suggestion. Therefore, he qualified it with "if it be possible," and "as much as lieth in you." Sometimes, one must stand up to an aggressor to protect one's family and himself or herself. While Yeeshuwa` did say to turn the other cheek, and to walk with a soldier for two miles, if he forces you to walk a mile with him, carrying a load, He NEVER suggested we be a pushover or a weakling! We can show kindness to an enemy, but we should be "wise as serpents," while being "harmless as doves."

 

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Most who read John 14:6 misrepresent and misunderstand what the Son of Man was saying to His Talmudim *.   What is truth?   If Jesus claimed to BE the truth, then we need to know what truth IS do we not? 

Yes, but since He IS the Truth, then we learn what Truth IS by learning about HIM!

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Truth is that which is consistent with what is. (def: Merriam Webster dictionary)

Let's be clear on this.  When Jesus said He IS the truth He was saying He is consistent with what IS.  Within the context of the religious conversation He was having with His Talmudim He was saying He and the Father are the same thing - the same person.  Jews of the time disbelieved it. Christians today don't understand it.  Instead they content themselves with parroting words they do not comprehend.

No. This is error. He was NOT saying "He and the Father are the same thing - the same person!" That makes Him out to be a CRAZY person, talking constantly to Himself, since He frequently prayed to His Father! He and His Father are TWO SEPARATE PERSONS! When He said, "I and my Father are one," He said it like a man and his wife are one! They were INTIMATELY UNITED IN THOUGHT! And, He constantly kept that fresh by keeping His line of communication open with His Father! After the Word was made flesh and was named Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus"), He was NEVER called "God!" He was called "the SON of God!" This is an important distinction that most Christians today gloss over, ignoring the distinction. Practically speaking, Yeeshuwa` is NO LONGER "God." He gave that up to become a Man and to be the Mediator - the "Go-Between" - between God and mankind. He has now become the logical Person to judge mankind, since He is a Man (or as He said it, "the Son of Man - a true Human Being"). And, "He shall reign as King over the house of Israel forever, and of His Kingdom there shall be no end!" He gave up His God-ness to become a Man, and in the process, He became LIMITED to the body He became. He is now LOCALIZED to a particular place. That's why He could LEAVE us and COME AGAIN. When He comes again, He will take up His role as King of Israel, but He will also annex other nations, and become a King of kings. As His Kingdom grows, He will, over the course of a thousand years, become the World Emperor, and when all of His enemies have been subdued (including Death itself), then He turns over the Empire to His Father, and He will go on reigning over the house of Israel. Long story short, in a matter of a few short years, He will BE THE FINAL SAY in what is Truth!

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Within the context of atomic physics, any scientific physicist can also lay claim to the truth when He publishes a scientific paper on his discoveries.  

IF he or she can back up his or her paper with significant experimentations and conclusive results from those experiments.

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The same is true for any field of endeavor humans may attempt or discover including the local auto mechanic.  Context is important here when referring to the person and nature of Christ or anything else.

With hesitation (based upon the direction of your reasoning), I agree.

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Discernment is also important when we attempt to discover the manipulations of society, politicians, the government, our schools and even our religious institutions.   Most of the time most of them are NOT true.  Variations and exceptions are the rule in 21st century America.  Most of them now have an agenda that is inconsistent with what IS - inconsistent with God's Holy LAW.

... And, with His CHARACTER and ATTRIBUTES. Yes, we live in a SUBJECTIVE world today; HOWEVER, that does NOT negate the existence of ABSOLUTES! There are still somethings that one can count on! Simplistically speaking, I can COUNT ON getting hurt or dying if I step off a high cliff! Gravity still works! It's not always true that "no one's opinion is better than another's."

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

This is my point here.  This is what I'm trying to illicit from readers and posters.  What is true in society and what isn't?  What benchmark do we use to determine we aren't being conned into believing and acting upon something that IS NOT......true?

The SCRIPTURES ONLY! "Sola Scriptura! " While the Scriptures are NOT a textbook on any branch of science, when it speaks about science, it is correct and gives us the truth!

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

According to the Bible, God's LAW is the benchmark for all things moral and spiritual.  Unfortunately the church now completely denies the LAW as do many Jews (some Reform Jews deny Torah and Adonai altogether).  These are the days of lawlessness - not violence alone, though that is certainly on the rise, but of the lawlessness that results from refusal to be bound by God's LAW any more.

Here, I think you've made a broad generalization that is not necessarily true. Who says that is what God's people are doing? Not everyone who believes that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God will make that mistake. In fact, those who are TRULY God's people WON'T make that mistake! Not everyone who claims to be a "Christian" is indeed a Christian. Not every organization that claims to be "God's church" is indeed God's church! Don't let the negative news reported be your ONLY SOURCE of news! 

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

(There are videos on YouTube showing satanists and representatives of the Gay Agenda in the act of tearing to pieces a copy of the Bible.  While Christians and Jews may look upon this with horrified eyes, they DO THE SAME THING in their solemn assemblies when they reject God's LAW or make excuses for ignoring it in their hearts and with their mouths.)

It's only as one would expect, given the strangeness of their agendas.

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom everything that causes SIN, and those who commit lawlessness (Matthew 13:41).

This occurs at the END of the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, wheen He is the King of kings, and becomes the Judge upon the Great White Throne. It will be some time before this occurs.

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The wages of SIN is death. (Romans 6:23)

Therefore since we have all REJECTED any representation of truth whether it be an abstract concept, the Son of Man or the LAW itself how are we to judge what we're being told?

Not all of us HAVE "rejected any representation of truth!" I still believe in the Son of Man and in the Law of God, and they are my standard - my "yardstick" - on what we're being told. If it doesn't measure up to God's Truth, then it is error.

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Pointing to a dead guy on a stick won't persuade those who deny any and all legal and moral standards of behavior.

What do we do?

 We do what we should have been doing all along! We WITNESS to them! Give them God's Word because "His Word will not return void!" The problem is that many of the churches today have allowed themselves to be seduced by this "my way is not any better than your way" mentality, and it's BOGUS!

35 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Do we accept God's LAW as a personal benchmark or do we sit on the fence and watch the world circle the drain of history?

Choose wisely, for it is God who will ultimately judge US according to what we've done with the salvation He's provided.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Talmudim - (def) a disciple or student.  

In the context of the time of the gospels, Talmudim were those who had attached themselves to a teacher (Rabbi) for the purposes of learning philosophy, religious laws (mitzvah) and history.  While modern Judaism continues  to support formal learning in its Yeshivas (rabbinical schools), Christians make little or no effort to do so.  Some churches deny the veracity of any formal education at all (ie: Lakewood Church in Houston, Texas).  All students typically choose an institution or teacher for learning.  Jesus turned the process on its head when He chose His students instead of them choosing Him.

 

What we do today is actually ALREADY TOO LATE to undo the damage that has been done by the negligence we've shown in the past. All we can do at this point is repent - turn back to God and His Absolutes, and pray for His intervention. Miracles can still happen, if He so chooses.

[choir loft]

9 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

Where do you think determining "how to sift through all the chaff" comes from? We can only do it if our heads are "screwed on the right way!" Also, I'm a literalist. One doesn't have "convictions" if he's not been "convicted" of something. We cannot sift through ANYTHING if we have not received wisdom from God, which are really philosophical stances we take, based upon God's ABSOLUTE commands. The world suffers sins and the results from sin BECAUSE they've lost their moorings in NOT recognizing that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") is not just the personification of Truth, but actually IS the source of all Truth!

Wars, like guns, are TOOLS to protect one's innocent people and to defeat foes who WON'T back off! Just as guns are at the individual level, wars are at the national level. Paul said,

Romans 12:18 (KJV)

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

He said this KNOWING that this was not a "law" to believers, but was a suggestion. Therefore, he qualified it with "if it be possible," and "as much as lieth in you." Sometimes, one must stand up to an aggressor to protect one's family and himself or herself. While Yeeshuwa` did say to turn the other cheek, and to walk with a soldier for two miles, if he forces you to walk a mile with him, carrying a load, He NEVER suggested we be a pushover or a weakling! We can show kindness to an enemy, but we should be "wise as serpents," while being "harmless as doves."

 

Yes, but since He IS the Truth, then we learn what Truth IS by learning about HIM!

No. This is error. He was NOT saying "He and the Father are the same thing - the same person!" That makes Him out to be a CRAZY person, talking constantly to Himself, since He frequently prayed to His Father! He and His Father are TWO SEPARATE PERSONS! When He said, "I and my Father are one," He said it like a man and his wife are one! They were INTIMATELY UNITED IN THOUGHT! And, He constantly kept that fresh by keeping His line of communication open with His Father! After the Word was made flesh and was named Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus"), He was NEVER called "God!" He was called "the SON of God!" This is an important distinction that most Christians today gloss over, ignoring the distinction. Practically speaking, Yeeshuwa` is NO LONGER "God." He gave that up to become a Man and to be the Mediator - the "Go-Between" - between God and mankind. He has now become the logical Person to judge mankind, since He is a Man (or as He said it, "the Son of Man - a true Human Being"). And, "He shall reign as King over the house of Israel forever, and of His Kingdom there shall be no end!" He gave up His God-ness to become a Man, and in the process, He became LIMITED to the body He became. He is now LOCALIZED to a particular place. That's why He could LEAVE us and COME AGAIN. When He comes again, He will take up His role as King of Israel, but He will also annex other nations, and become a King of kings. As His Kingdom grows, He will, over the course of a thousand years, become the World Emperor, and when all of His enemies have been subdued (including Death itself), then He turns over the Empire to His Father, and He will go on reigning over the house of Israel. Long story short, in a matter of a few short years, He will BE THE FINAL SAY in what is Truth!

IF he or she can back up his or her paper with significant experimentations and conclusive results from those experiments.

With hesitation (based upon the direction of your reasoning), I agree.

... And, with His CHARACTER and ATTRIBUTES. Yes, we live in a SUBJECTIVE world today; HOWEVER, that does NOT negate the existence of ABSOLUTES! There are still somethings that one can count on! Simplistically speaking, I can COUNT ON getting hurt or dying if I step off a high cliff! Gravity still works! It's not always true that "no one's opinion is better than another's."

The SCRIPTURES ONLY! "Sola Scriptura! " While the Scriptures are NOT a textbook on any branch of science, when it speaks about science, it is correct and gives us the truth!

Here, I think you've made a broad generalization that is not necessarily true. Who says that is what God's people are doing? Not everyone who believes that Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God will make that mistake. In fact, those who are TRULY God's people WON'T make that mistake! Not everyone who claims to be a "Christian" is indeed a Christian. Not every organization that claims to be "God's church" is indeed God's church! Don't let the negative news reported be your ONLY SOURCE of news! 

It's only as one would expect, given the strangeness of their agendas.

This occurs at the END of the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign, wheen He is the King of kings, and becomes the Judge upon the Great White Throne. It will be some time before this occurs.

Not all of us HAVE "rejected any representation of truth!" I still believe in the Son of Man and in the Law of God, and they are my standard - my "yardstick" - on what we're being told. If it doesn't measure up to God's Truth, then it is error.

 We do what we should have been doing all along! We WITNESS to them! Give them God's Word because "His Word will not return void!" The problem is that many of the churches today have allowed themselves to be seduced by this "my way is not any better than your way" mentality, and it's BOGUS!

What we do today is actually ALREADY TOO LATE to undo the damage that has been done by the negligence we've shown in the past. All we can do at this point is repent - turn back to God and His Absolutes, and pray for His intervention. Miracles can still happen, if He so chooses.

Nice spin, but quite a dizzy one.

Let me put it to you this way........if Christ isn't God, then His death meant nothing in terms of providing atonement for SIN. 

According to the LAW, atonement for SIN can only be accepted by God if a suitable BLOOD sacrifice is offered.  

Prior to Jesus' death on the cross, the acceptable sacrifice for SINs was animal blood.  Various animals were offered at different times for different reasons too numerous to go into here.  Bottom line is that the life of the creature is its blood, which is why blood must be offered.

However, the sacrifice of animals was eventually declared by God to be obsolete (Heb 8:13) because it was temporary.

A perfect animal, however clean it may be, is still mortal ... still subject to the natural effects of mortality, meaning limited life span.   This is why animal sacrifices had to be made continually.

A perfect man, especially one that is IMMORTAL, is the acceptable PERMANENT sacrifice for SIN.   It only needed to have been offered one time to last for all time for all who benefit from it.

Only God is immortal.  (1 Tim 6:16)   This is one of the reasons Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

Therefore it is the immortal God who died upon the cross, who's death will benefit all who claim it for their own.

In Matthew 7:17 Jesus says MOST PEOPLE WILL DIE without the justification offered by His death.  Most people will reject it.

We see the truth of this in history.  

Most people do not accept the Lordship of Christ and most people, being informed of God's generous mercy, CHOOSE TO REJECT IT.....they "JUDGE THEMSELVES worthy of immortal life" (Acts 13:46)

(Which is WHY Jesus told His disciples not to judge others....they didn't need to do so....because the 'others' judged themselves already.)

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

Nice spin, but quite a dizzy one.

Shalom, choir loft. Thanks. I understand that one might not fully grasp all I've said, but I've done my best to be clear.

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

Let me put it to you this way........if Christ isn't God, then His death meant nothing in terms of providing atonement for SIN. 

Really? That's not what I read! His death meant EVERYTHING, and He could NOT be G-D or He would not have been able to die! As the SON of G-D, a human being, for He was the Word made flesh, He was made a body that COULD die! And, He DID die to provide "the Lamb of G-D" ("haKeves Elohiym") required for sin. By His death, G-D His Father was FREE to provide that sinless death as a payment for the sins of others. One must really pay close attention to the wording of Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he (the Messiah of G-D) shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A "soul" (Hebrew: נֶפֶשׁ nefesh) is an "air-breathing creature." So, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE, He was made an "offering for sin." God saw the "travail of His air-breathing creature," and was SATISFIED!

 

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

According to the LAW, atonement for SIN can only be accepted by God if a suitable BLOOD sacrifice is offered.  

Prior to Jesus' death on the cross, the acceptable sacrifice for SINs was animal blood.  Various animals were offered at different times for different reasons too numerous to go into here.  Bottom line is that the life of the creature is its blood, which is why blood must be offered.

However, the sacrifice of animals was eventually declared by God to be obsolete (Heb 8:13) because it was temporary.

A perfect animal, however clean it may be, is still mortal ... still subject to the natural effects of mortality, meaning limited life span.   This is why animal sacrifices had to be made continually.

Correct ... so far.

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

A perfect man, especially one that is IMMORTAL, is the acceptable PERMANENT sacrifice for SIN.   It only needed to have been offered one time to last for all time for all who benefit from it.

No. He couldn't have been immortal or He wouldn't have been able to die. That's what "mortality" is, the "ability to die!" To be "immortal" negates that! You are right, however, that He only needed to offer Himself once "to last for all time for all who benefit from it."

Remember how Paul worded it in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)

21 For he (G-D His Father) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin;that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is the Great Exchange! This is how it works! G-D called the Messiah "SIN" on our behalf, and poured out His wrath on that "SIN" until He was satisfied! And, now, He can call those who come to Him "HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" that was within His own Son! And, the exchange is completed: Just as He looked upon His righteous Son and saw "SIN," in spite of His Son's righteousness, or rather His own righteousness within His Son; so now He can look upon us who are sinners and see "HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS," in spite of our sins!

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

Only God is immortal.  (1 Tim 6:16)  

  Correct.

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

This is one of the reasons Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30)

No, this only means that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was ON THE SAME PAGE as His Father! They were in INTIMATE AGREEMENT! It's the same phrase used for a husband and wife! The husband and the wife are not one grotesque monster of two people merged, they are in INTIMATE COMMUNION with each other!

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

Therefore it is the immortal God who died upon the cross, who's death will benefit all who claim it for their own.

No, again, an immortal Being cannot die, upon the cross or anywhere!

13 hours ago, choir loft said:

In Matthew 7:17 Jesus says MOST PEOPLE WILL DIE without the justification offered by His death.  Most people will reject it.

We see the truth of this in history.  

Most people do not accept the Lordship of Christ and most people, being informed of God's generous mercy, CHOOSE TO REJECT IT.....they "JUDGE THEMSELVES unworthy of immortal life" (Acts 13:46)

(Which is WHY Jesus told His disciples not to judge others....they didn't need to do so....because the 'others' judged themselves already.)

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

With this part I can agree.

[choir loft]

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft. Thanks. I understand that one might not fully grasp all I've said, but I've done my best to be clear.

Really? That's not what I read! His death meant EVERYTHING, and He could NOT be G-D or He would not have been able to die! As the SON of G-D, a human being, for He was the Word made flesh, He was made a body that COULD die! And, He DID die to provide "the Lamb of G-D" ("haKeves Elohiym") required for sin. By His death, G-D His Father was FREE to provide that sinless death as a payment for the sins of others. One must really pay close attention to the wording of Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53:1-12 (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he (the Messiah of G-D) shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

A "soul" (Hebrew: נֶפֶשׁ nefesh) is an "air-breathing creature." So, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE, He was made an "offering for sin." God saw the "travail of His air-breathing creature," and was SATISFIED!

 

Correct ... so far.

No. He couldn't have been immortal or He wouldn't have been able to die. That's what "mortality" is, the "ability to die!" To be "immortal" negates that! You are right, however, that He only needed to offer Himself once "to last for all time for all who benefit from it."

Remember how Paul worded it in 2 Corinthians:

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)

21 For he (G-D His Father) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who knew no sin;that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This is the Great Exchange! This is how it works! G-D called the Messiah "SIN" on our behalf, and poured out His wrath on that "SIN" until He was satisfied! And, now, He can call those who come to Him "HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS" that was within His own Son! And, the exchange is completed: Just as He looked upon His righteous Son and saw "SIN," in spite of His Son's righteousness, or rather His own righteousness within His Son; so now He can look upon us who are sinners and see "HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS," in spite of our sins!

  Correct.

No, this only means that Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was ON THE SAME PAGE as His Father! They were in INTIMATE AGREEMENT! It's the same phrase used for a husband and wife! The husband and the wife are not one grotesque monster of two people merged, they are in INTIMATE COMMUNION with each other!

No, again, an immortal Being cannot die, upon the cross or anywhere!

With this part I can agree.

If you deny that Jesus, the immortal God He admitted to being, died on the cross then you deny any possibility of salvation by His blood ACCORDING TO THE LAW.   For it is by His blood we are saved once and for all time.

Therefore there remains no hope of justification, of forgiveness or of fellowship with God according to your agenda.

If I believed in hell, which I don't, I might be justified in saying, "see you there".

Does not the scripture say He tasted death for us all?   He didn't have to do so, but He did.

Your argument is rather like Muslims who deny God can be human (who also deny the Qur'an's statement of the possibility in surah 28). 

Which is it?  Can God become human and actually die as scripture said He would and as it said He did  or can He NOT because YOU say its impossible?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

If you deny that Jesus, the immortal God He admitted to being, died on the cross then you deny any possibility of salvation by His blood ACCORDING TO THE LAW.   For it is by His blood we are saved once and for all time.

Shalom, choir loft.

First, Yeeshuwa` did NOT admit to being "the immortal God!" Where did you get THAT nonsense?! However, He was NOT "immortal" and therefore He COULD die, and He DID DIE on the cross! I'm not denying that in the SLIGHTEST! The IMMORTAL God CANNOT DIE, BY DEFINITION!!!

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

Therefore there remains no hope of justification, of forgiveness or of fellowship with God according to your agenda.

If I believed in hell, which I don't, I might be justified in saying, "see you there".

Does not the scripture say He tasted death for us all?   He didn't have to do so, but He did.

You're going off on your own tangent, and you didn't read a word I wrote! OF COURSE, He died! DUH! All I'm saying is that GOD didn't die; GOD was His Father, and Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was called "the SON of God!" He could not be God for God IS INDEED immortal. But, if He had been GOD, then He couldn't have died! 

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

Your argument is rather like Muslims who deny God can be human (who also deny the Qur'an's statement of the possibility in surah 28). 

No, not really. I DO believe that God can do whatever He chooses to do. The Holy Spirit came upon Miryam ("Mary") and she conceived a son and called His name "Yeeshuwa`" in Hebrew --> "Ieesous" in Greek --> "Iesus" in Latin --> "Jesus" in English!

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

Which is it?  Can God become human and actually die as scripture said He would and as it said He did  or can He NOT because YOU say its impossible?

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You're just FULL of nonsense, aren't you? God DID become human! God the Word was MADE FLESH! But, in being so made, He was NO LONGER GOD! That's not to say He isn't the same PERSON, the Word, but when the Word was made flesh and was born, they named Him "Yeeshuwa`" or "Jesus." However, He no longer has the attributes of GOD! (Philippians 2:5-9). This is why He is called "the SON of God!" He was LOCALIZED as a body, He could now die, He could be buried, and He could be raised to life again BY His Father! He could now LEAVE the earth (Acts 1:9) and go away to His Father's House (John 14:1-6), and He will COME AGAIN when the Father says it's time! (Acts 1:7, 11). Neither God the Father nor the Holy Spirit of God can "leave" or "arrive" because they are INFINITE in size and are EVERYWHERE all at the same time, and are SPIRIT! The Word - Yeeshuwa` the Messiah - iS NOT SPIRIT but is now FLESH AND BONES! (Luke 24:39). Therefore, He MUST arrive PHYSICALLY as promised by Himself and the two men in white clothes. And, GaVriy-'Eel ("Gabriel") prophesied,

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV)

31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called 'the Son of the Highest (God)': and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

So, you're right that the "rapture" won't occur as some believe it will be - taking all His people to "Heaven." Instead, having just come BACK from the New Jerusalem (which was under construction all this time), the "harpazoo" (using "oo" for an omega, and the word meaning "seizing or snatching away") will be a "mass transit system" instead, taking all those who belong to Him to Israel, (1) to oust the Gentiles from His Land, and (2) to set up His Kingdom over the house of Jacob, renamed "Israel," forever!

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, choir loft.

First, Yeeshuwa` did NOT admit to being "the immortal God!" Where did you get THAT nonsense?! However, He was NOT "immortal" and therefore He COULD die, and He DID DIE on the cross! I'm not denying that in the SLIGHTEST! The IMMORTAL God CANNOT DIE, BY DEFINITION!!!

You're going off on your own tangent, and you didn't read a word I wrote! OF COURSE, He died! DUH! All I'm saying is that GOD didn't die; GOD was His Father, and Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") was called "the SON of God!" He could not be God for God IS INDEED immortal. But, if He had been GOD, then He couldn't have died! 

No, not really. I DO believe that God can do whatever He chooses to do. The Holy Spirit came upon Miryam ("Mary") and she conceived a son and called His name "Yeeshuwa`" in Hebrew --> "Ieesous" in Greek --> "Iesus" in Latin --> "Jesus" in English!

You're just FULL of nonsense, aren't you? God DID become human! God the Word was MADE FLESH! But, in being so made, He was NO LONGER GOD! That's not to say He isn't the same PERSON, the Word, but when the Word was made flesh and was born, they named Him "Yeeshuwa`" or "Jesus." However, He no longer has the attributes of GOD! (Philippians 2:5-9). This is why He is called "the SON of God!" He was LOCALIZED as a body, He could now die, He could be buried, and He could be raised to life again BY His Father! He could now LEAVE the earth (Acts 1:9) and go away to His Father's House (John 14:1-6), and He will COME AGAIN when the Father says it's time! (Acts 1:7, 11). Neither God the Father nor the Holy Spirit of God can "leave" or "arrive" because they are INFINITE in size and are EVERYWHERE all at the same time, and are SPIRIT! The Word - Yeeshuwa` the Messiah - iS NOT SPIRIT but is now FLESH AND BONES! (Luke 24:39). Therefore, He MUST arrive PHYSICALLY as promised by Himself and the two men in white clothes. And, GaVriy-'Eel ("Gabriel") prophesied,

Luke 1:31-33 (KJV)

31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name 'JESUS.' 32 He shall be great, and shall be called 'the Son of the Highest (God)': and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

So, you're right that the "rapture" won't occur as some believe it will be - taking all His people to "Heaven." Instead, having just come BACK from the New Jerusalem (which was under construction all this time), the "harpazoo" (using "oo" for an omega, and the word meaning "seizing or snatching away") will be a "mass transit system" instead, taking all those who belong to Him to Israel, (1) to oust the Gentiles from His Land, and (2) to set up His Kingdom over the house of Jacob, renamed "Israel," forever!

I do believe Jesus is God. There are no limitations on Him. He designed a prefect way to become the only sacrifice that would take away our sin. 

He is the “I am.”

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

He is the Word made flesh. In the beginning was the Word. It (He) was not made “in the beginning,” He was in the beginning.

The 4 Gospels reveal God (Jesus) in 4 different ways:

1) Matthew  - as the Messiah, 

2) Mark - as the suffering servant,

3) Luke - as a man,

4) John - as the Word, the Word was God.

Jesus was all 4 of these and so much more. God did not create Jesus or these 4, He is the only One who could present Himself to us in these 4 ways. 
 

It is impossible to understand our God .. but He revealed Himself in many ways to us in ways we could possibly understand Him (physically and spiritually).