Enoch's DEATH is in Hebrews

[WilliamL]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:14 AM, AdHoc said:

Both these Witnesses could be resurrected to tell what they saw. But if they were to be killed again, then a grave problem would arise with God's Word because in Hebrews 9:27 it emphatically says that it is given to man "One to die and then comes judgment".

A "grave problem," eh? interesting choice of words.

  Now, with respect to the tone of the debate, we must remember how this all started out:

On 12/17/2023 at 8:33 AM, Serving said:

So Enoch died after all .. but the book of Enoch claims he did not die .. this means one thing and one thing only .. that the book of Enoch is a false testimony .. it is a LIE.

We can not dispute Hebrews 11, it is as plain as day .. no matter how much you like that book of Enoch, of whose doctrines you mixed with God's written word .. it is now incumbent on us all to fully reject that heretical book and any teachings we have mixed with God's written word .. and especially the ones mixed with God's prophecies .. we must purge them all away, we no longer have excuse to endorse such a writing .. so don't.

The book of Enoch lied .. 

There is no longer any excuse.

This is a very confrontational tone with respect to anyone who has a different opinion. Since this the the initial attitude, one shouldn't complain if one receives a confrontational tone in reply.

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

What does **see death** imply with Enoch in light of what Jesus said though?

Because all are speaking to the living,  for example here

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Even as Jesus is speaking of a man (which liveth) who keeps his saying here

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Even as it was speaking of Enoch who also lived and should not see the same here

Hebrews 11:10 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not **see death**; and was not found, because God had translated him:  for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Is there a difference between what is implied to be death (or seeing death) between them since Jesus also told us the same?

How do you guys put a difference, if you do at all between them?

[Sister]

4 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

What does **see death** imply with Enoch in light of what Jesus said though?

Because all are speaking to the living,  for example here

Psalm 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not **see death**? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Even as Jesus is speaking of a man (which liveth) who keeps his saying here

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep **my saying**, he shall never **see death**.

Even as it was speaking of Enoch who also lived and should not see the same here

Hebrews 11:10 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not **see death**; and was not found, because God had translated him:  for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Is there a difference between what is implied to be death (or seeing death) between them since Jesus also told us the same?

How do you guys put a difference, if you do at all between them?

Greetings

An example of 'not seeing death' would be going through a gruesome suffering (for the Lords sake) and consciously not being present with the body or connected to the flesh.

Remember Stephen?  At the start of his persecution when his enemies rose up against him, God gave him a vision and he was taken in the spirit to the heavenly realm.  He stayed in that spirit state, separated from his body until he was killed.  The Lord sent him a distraction so he would not feel the pain or sorrow, therefore he 'did not see death' but only visions of the kingdom. 

 

 Acts 7:54   When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

  Acts 7:55   But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

  Acts 7:56   And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

 

 

 

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

18 minutes ago, Sister said:

Greetings

An example of 'not seeing death' would be going through a gruesome suffering (for the Lords sake) and consciously not being present with the body or connected to the flesh.

Remember Stephen?  At the start of his persecution when his enemies rose up against him, God gave him a vision and he was taken in the spirit to the heavenly realm.  He stayed in that spirit state, separated from his body until he was killed.  The Lord sent him a distraction so he would not feel the pain or sorrow, therefore he 'did not see death' but only visions of the kingdom. 

 

 Acts 7:54   When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

  Acts 7:55   But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

  Acts 7:56   And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
 

 

 

 

 

Sister I would have never even considered this, thank you for sharing! 

[AdHoc]

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

A "grave problem," eh? interesting choice of words.

  Now, with respect to the tone of the debate, we must remember how this all started out:

This is a very confrontational tone with respect to anyone who has a different opinion. Since this the the initial attitude, one shouldn't complain if one receives a confrontational tone in reply.

You're right. "Serious" would have been more appropriate. Lets bury that one

I'm just like you. I have distract myself because when somebody gets radical I'm ready to give it straight back. And it's not always wrong. The Lord did it on occasions. But there is a flip-side to the matter - 1st Peter 2:23. But don't let me judge. I'll be the next one that falls.

Go well bro.

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

Greetings

An example of 'not seeing death' would be going through a gruesome suffering (for the Lords sake) and consciously not being present with the body or connected to the flesh.

Remember Stephen?  At the start of his persecution when his enemies rose up against him, God gave him a vision and he was taken in the spirit to the heavenly realm.  He stayed in that spirit state, separated from his body until he was killed.  The Lord sent him a distraction so he would not feel the pain or sorrow, therefore he 'did not see death' but only visions of the kingdom. 

 

 Acts 7:54   When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

  Acts 7:55   But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

  Acts 7:56   And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
 

 

 

 

 

An interesting concept - no doubt. Whether Stephen was relieved of his pain of death or not is debatable.* What is striking is the glorified Lord STANDING. His rank in the right hand of the Father's Throne makes Him second in command of the universe. This dictates that He SITS - for all are subordinate to Him except the Father. It is honor upon honor for any man who the Lord stands for. What a deep appreciation the Lord must have for His martyrs.

* In Matthew 10:28 the Lord threatens exquisite pain in Gehenna. He compares two pains - the pain of death at the hands of men versus the pain that God can inflict. So, death must involve some pain. Great is the reward for martyrdom (Rev.20:1-4), so I judge that great is the loss (or pain).

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

Here are a couple could they at all apply?

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

1 Cr 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

[Dennis1209]

On 12/17/2023 at 12:09 PM, tim_from_pa said:

@Mr. M  @Serving

OK, folks.  Here is what I am driving at.  First of all, I believe the Bible is clear in Hebrews 11 that Enoch died, and nobody ascended to heaven not the least of which being John 3:13 as my reason for believing that.  However... I'm wondering about the logical conclusion, Serving, as to how one can say that the book of Enoch says he did not die just because it says he ascended to heaven (which I don't believe anyway)?  In other words, the book of Enoch is very visionary and says a lot in parables and visions.  I don't believe it belongs in canon of Scripture, but what I am saying is one has to make a stronger case.  Another similar mention even in the Bible is the "Transfiguration" story in which that supposedly proves Moses and Elijah are in heaven.  It says no such thing.  They were having a vision akin to seeing through a portal to the future.  They are not there now.

Likewise, Mr. M, the idea of God taking him so that he would not see death, isn't a reference to not ever dying, but rather sparing Enoch death because he was a preacher of righteousness before the Flood and his life was in danger, so God removed him to a safe place.  Where?  I don't know, but he would have still died eventually.  The same can be said of Elijah.  He was taken to heaven (keep in mind of the various definitions of heaven but that's another topic), and yet awhile later we hear that King Jehoram received a letter from Elijah. Since he was a prophet, did he write it beforehand?  Was Elijah around somewhere yet? We can't conclude based on this passage alone, but we can see John 3:13 what Jesus said, and sometimes that's enough to clinch what DID not happen, i.e. not dying and living in heaven for either of them. The only other logical thing I can think of is being translated into a glorious body, but outside of heaven - not sure why the Lord would do that.

Clearly then I do not take the stance "dying and going to heaven" but rather sleeping until the resurrection.

You bring up some interesting points I have studied. The following is a short snippet of a long note. Elijah was ʻâlâh, taken up, ascended upward; Enoch was metatíthēmi, transferred or removed.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [I presume this to be from the coming deluge].

Could Elijah’s letter to King Jehoram be postdated as Isaiah’s letter to King Cyrus was? Or is it possible the Lord only retired Elijah and replaced him with Elisha?

Either the Biblical accounts are not chronological in order, the Kings of Judah – Israel are misunderstood, or Elijah was transported (harpazo) as Phillip was. Transported to Israel from Judah, living out his remaining days.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Elijah writes a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chronicles 21:12 but this was a latter king that lived years after God took Elijah. How did he write this letter?

The Elijah spoken of in 2 Chr. 21:12–15 is by some supposed to be a different person from the foregoing. He lived in the time of Jehoram, to whom he sent a letter of warning (comp. 1 Chr. 28:19; Jer. 36), and acted as a prophet in Judah; while the Tishbite was a prophet of the northern kingdom. But there does not seem any necessity for concluding that the writer of this letter was some other Elijah than the Tishbite. It may be supposed either that Elijah anticipated the character of Jehoram, and so wrote the warning message, which was preserved in the schools of the prophets till Jehoram ascended the throne after the Tishbite’s translation, or that the translation did not actually take place till after the accession of Jehoram to the throne (2 Chr. 21:12; 2 Kings 8:16). The events of 2 Kings 2 may not be recorded in chronological order, and thus there may be room for the opinion that Elijah was still alive in the beginning of Jehoram’s reign.¹

¹ Easton, M. G. Illustrated Bible Dictionary and Treasury of Biblical History, Biography, Geography, Doctrine, and Literature, Harper & Brothers, 1893, p. 223.

 

[Guest AFlameOfFire]

On another note, what does being tortured, and not accepting your own deliverance from it have to do with obtaining a better resurrection?

You never hear much about that, or practicing that. I am referring to Hebrews 11:35

Can you imagine being sawn asunder and your torturer says, okay, I am done now it is enough and the one being sawn asunder replies, no please continue I will have a better resurrection if you stay overtime and complete the job (for my greater good).

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by AFlameOfFire

[AdHoc]

4 hours ago, AFlameOfFire said:

On another note, what does being tortured, and not accepting your own deliverance from it have to do with obtaining a better resurrection?

You never hear much about that, or practicing that. I am referring to Hebrews 11:35

Can you imagine being sawn asunder and your torturer says, okay, I am done now it is enough and the one being sawn asunder replies, no please continue I will have a better resurrection if you stay overtime and complete the job (for my greater good).

 

 

God's original plan was for man to be in His image and likeness, and to subdue and then rule the earth, sea and sky and their contents (Gen.1:26-28). Since He promised "the seed of the woman", God is sovereignly working to restore and realize that plan. Whereas you and I would probably scrap the plan and start anew, God is sovereign and His councils are immutable. Nothing is too hard for Him, so He does not give up with mankind. He has joined Himself to man and with man He will ultimately accomplish what He st out to do.

In the process of saving man, God has five goals.
1.Institute a Substitute Who could pay for man's offenses 100%
2. Institute a process which will make man royalty, to make him an heir and to impart divine life so that man can be like God in behavior and rule with a godly character
3. Institute a process which will change the man's utterly evil nature to a godlike one
4. Institute a process whereby man's utterly corrupted body is replaced
5. Train a man to rule with righteousness worthy of God's Kingdom.

Points 1, 2 and 4 are achieved by a Work of God alone. Man is singularly incapable of paying for his sins, experiencing a divine and royal birth and raising his body from the dead. God does the Work and it is applied to mankind irrespective of his efforts. But points 3 and 5 is where God has restricted Himself and man's cooperation is needed. For instance in 2nd Corinthians 3:18 the transforming process need the man to behold Christ at length. In John Chapter 6 in order to be a spring of life man needs to eat Christ. In order to be a "help meet" for Christ man needs to seek a relationship.

God has established an incentive to ensure man cooperates. He is a God of REWARD. Any man who will invest his life fr God's purposes will be rewarded. The special resurrection is first alluded to in the harvests of Leviticus 23. God is Lord of the harvest and commands His portion. The first-fruits are His. The first fruits of the winter crop are followed by the first fruits of the summer crop, which are in turn, followed by the general harvest. If a plant is willing to take more rain and more hat of the sun, he/she will ripen first.

The special resurrection is first plainly elaborated on in Philippians 3:9-14. The word for "resurrection" in verse 11 is "exanastasis". It is used only once in the bible and literally means "the resurrection out of the resurrection". It must be ATTAINED to. As we know from 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 that the rapture follows resurrection, God has instituted a special rapture which in the same verses is PRIZE to be WORTHY of. The Greek in verse 14 is best translated; " the PRIZE of the UPWARD CALL!"

The special resurrection is again mentioned in Revelation 20. In verses 1-6 it is called "the FIRST resurrection". The Greek word for "first" is "protos". It can mean "first in time", or, it can mean "first in importance". Since there are multiple resurrections before the men are "beheaded" in Revelation 20, they are not "first in time". They must be from a special resurrection that is FIRST IN IMPORTANCE.

Many Christians feel that they owe God a lot and it is mercenary to want a reward. Well ... they do owe God a lot, but I think we should do things His way. If He thinks a reward system is good, lets not argue with Him. Let's be like Paul and STRIVE for the rewards He has set before us.