AnOrangeCat Posted February 2 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 57 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,413 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 1,834 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/24/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 7 hours ago, Who me said: Jesus does not forgive those who do not repent, and he does not expect us to do so either. Luke17:3 shows that repentance is a vital part of forgiveness. The parabel of the unjust servant shows we who have been forgiven, on our repentance, must forgive those who repent of offending against us. As you rightly say we are to pray for and to do good to those who offend against us. I agree with this. As someone who's been abused by family well into adulthood this is something I've had to think about a lot, as well as just what exactly forgiveness entails. Praying for and doing good to those who offend us is a part of it and very much in the spirit of forgiveness. 9 hours ago, Starise said: I have at times forgiven others but in my heart it still doesn't feel as if I forgave them. God knows I have every intent to forgive and I believe I did, but the wreckage left behind is too great to ignore and maybe that's what I see, especially when events can reoccur again opening up those wounds. To protect ourselves I think we need some distance and if that isn't possible, we need ways to cope with it. Absolutely. I've been there, and the distance is vital. I've come to see forgiveness in a very similar if not identical way as I see doubt/faith and love. As long as we're living our earthly lives it's very natural for us to harbor some measure of doubt. We've never physically interacted with God, and we often have circumstances that press in on us and pressure us to take wrong actions. To my way of thinking it's precisely because of these completely natural doubts that we can act in faith to begin with. If we had the benefit of having met God in the flesh we'd be acting on knowledge, not faith. Because we act on it, it becomes a matter of faith with works. Similarly with forgiveness we have feelings telling us one thing and the Bible telling us the opposite. We can deny our feelings and do what God wants us to do, even if it's just forcing ourselves to pray for the person in question. I do firmly believe we don't need to expose ourselves to further hurt, though. I'd probably go visit my earthly father on his deathbed. But I don't think forgiveness would entail inviting him into my already cramped home for an extended stay where he'd be confrontational and aggressive and indulge in his lifestyle of drugs and alcohol. I went through similar with my mother since she lived with me in her final years, but she always seemed conscious of the fact that she messed up the parenting process. She made some effort to quit, too, but the flesh is weak. As a final bit of consideration to offer on the topic, remember the guy in the church in I Corinthians 5 that was involved in incest? That's a really interesting case because on one hand Paul told the church to shun him, going so far as to forbid them from even eating with him. Yet Paul also says of him to hand him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved. Bit of food for thought on forgiveness there. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted February 2 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,108 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,612 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 2 Thanks for your honesty and openess here @AnOrangeCat. Very helpful. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Adrien Posted February 2 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 470 Content Per Day: 4.35 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/22/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 11 hours ago, Who me said: Are we! Jesus does not forgive those who do not repent, and he does not expect us to do so either. Luke17:3 shows that repentance is a vital part of forgiveness. The parabel of the unjust servant shows we who have been forgiven, on our repentance, must forgive those who repent of offending against us. As you rightly say we are to pray for and to do good to those who offend against us. That praying involves us opening up to God about how they have hurt us, about our feelings and to ask that God deals with us and our hurt feelings as well as for God to deal with the offender. Jesus forgave all those involved in His scourging and crucifixion while hanging on the cross. None of them had repented. Luke 23:24 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted February 2 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,108 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,612 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 2 11 hours ago, D. Adrien said: Jesus forgave all those involved in His scourging and crucifixion while hanging on the cross. None of them had repented. Luke 23:24 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” Do you think the Father honored His wishes? Just curious. I would love to know how their lives developed over time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.70 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 46 minutes ago, Starise said: Do you think the Father honored His wishes? Just curious. I would love to know how their lives developed over time. I'd like to know that as well, what became of those that executed Jesus. But as for the Father honoring His wishes, we don't know that as a fact but I think we can get a hint from Jesus' teaching that if we ask the Father for any good thing he will give it to us and then ask ourselves if Jesus would ask for anything that was not good? An interesting point of discussion, but one that I doubt would produce an answer that would be accepted by all as universally true. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starise Posted February 2 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 13 Topic Count: 279 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 13,108 Content Per Day: 9.69 Reputation: 13,612 Days Won: 149 Joined: 08/26/2020 Status: Online Author Share Posted February 2 1 minute ago, FJK said: I'd like to know that as well, what became of those that executed Jesus. But as for the Father honoring His wishes, we don't know that as a fact but I think we can get a hint from Jesus' teaching that if we ask the Father for any good thing he will give it to us and then ask ourselves if Jesus would ask for anything that was not good? An interesting point of discussion, but one that I doubt would produce an answer that would be accepted by all as universally true. Stephen did something similar at his stoning. I think that takes a very deep understanding of what awaited those so charged. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Adrien Posted February 2 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 470 Content Per Day: 4.35 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/22/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 Interesting points made here on Jesus asking forgiveness of the unrepentant. Ever consider how He never resorted to violence during the whole ordeal, from being captured to His questioning. Peter used a sword in the garden, but Jesus told him to put it away, which fulfilled a prophecy about being counted with the criminals. Are we as Christians authorized to resort to violence? For us too Our kingdom is not of this world. Isn't violence a tool of the Adversary only? It would be an interesting study to know the outcomes of the Sanhedrin and a definitive history of Pilate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.70 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 10 minutes ago, D. Adrien said: Are we as Christians authorized to resort to violence? We're warned against living by the sword, not against the use of violence when appropriate (The difference between making a living by shooting at people and reluctantly shooting back at someone who is shooting at you, IMO). There is a great deal of God ordained violence in the OT (Jesus would have been with the Father at that time) and in agreement with him) and I don't think Jesus never condemned it or forbade violence in self defense while he was on earth. Maybe I'm wrong, if so I would like to hear from those who think differently about why they think differently. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Adrien Posted February 2 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 470 Content Per Day: 4.35 Reputation: 405 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/22/2024 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 8 minutes ago, FJK said: We're warned against living by the sword, not against the use of violence when appropriate (The difference between making a living by shooting at people and reluctantly shooting back at someone who is shooting at you, IMO). There is a great deal of God ordained violence in the OT (Jesus would have been with the Father at that time) and in agreement with him) and I don't think Jesus never condemned it or forbade violence in self defense while he was on earth. Maybe I'm wrong, if so I would like to hear from those who think differently about why they think differently. But in the O.T. Israelis weren't expected to do more than the requirement of the law. It was okay to hate your neighbor, you just needed to make sure you offered up the correct sacrifice. Mat. 5,6 and 7 magnify the letter of the law and Jesus explains how the spirit of the law is to be kept moving forward. I find it hard to see room for violence, even the thinking of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted February 2 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.70 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2 1 minute ago, D. Adrien said: I find it hard to see room for violence, even the thinking of it. I've struggled with that myself, particularly in relation to Matthew 5:40 and Luke 6:30. Yet we are told also that "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" could easily mean to fight (violently) for the life of his friends who are being attacked without regard for his own life as a soldier defending against an enemy attacking his country or a policeman shooting a violent criminal attacking someone might do. I can easily find myself debating with myself both for and against the idea. Something difficult to reach a solid conclusion on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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