Why there are no two Witnesses of Moses with Elijah and 144k Sealed Hebrew in modern Israel

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

You believe the 144000 of the tribes of Israel in chapter 7 rejected the lamb?

 

Ohhhh My

And here I was thinking they did everything Jesus commanded them to do in the gospel.If they had rejected the lamb then they would be hiding in the bomb shelters with everyone else in Israel.

 

 

 

Not at all. Romans 11 says that ISRAEL will remain hard and blind to the END. Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there is no Jew in the New Man. By calling them Israelites He banishes any thought of them being part of the New Man. Dan is missing. Yet scripture says "of ALL the tribes of Israel". This makes the 144,000 REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. The Tribes of Israel are "sealed" so as not to be hurt by the Great Tribulation (9:4), not sealed by the Holy Spirit as guarantee of resurrection like the Church.

They are Israelites. They being named Israelites makes them those who rejected their Messiah. Them being called "Israelites" makes them Paul's brethren "according to the FLESH" (Rom.9:3-4). A believer is a NEW CREATURE. Israelites came from Jacob.

[Shilohsfoal]

24 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Not at all. Romans 11 says that ISRAEL will remain hard and blind to the END. Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there is no Jew in the New Man. By calling them Israelites He banishes any thought of them being part of the New Man. Dan is missing. Yet scripture says "of ALL the tribes of Israel". This makes the 144,000 REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. The Tribes of Israel are "sealed" so as not to be hurt by the Great Tribulation (9:4), not sealed by the Holy Spirit as guarantee of resurrection like the Church.

They are Israelites. They being named Israelites makes them those who rejected their Messiah. Them being called "Israelites" makes them Paul's brethren "according to the FLESH" (Rom.9:3-4). A believer is a NEW CREATURE. Israelites came from Jacob.

So that means all the apostles rejected Christ too because they also were Jews and can not be in the new man .They could not have been sealed with the holy Ghost because they too are Israelites which came from Jacob.

 

So if your wrong and the apostles can be in Christ ,then also the 144000 can as well because they are all from.the same group of people.

 

 

 

Edited February 16 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

So that means all the apostles rejected Christ too because they also were Jews and can not be in the new man .They could not have been sealed with the holy Ghost because they too are Israelites which came from Jacob.

 

So if your wrong and the apostles can be in Christ ,then also the 144000 can as well because they are all from.the same group of people.

 

 

 

Perhaps the answer lies in Matthew 12:46-50

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The word "brethren" means that one has the same father. You can only say a man is your "brother" if you have the same father. Now, at the time  the mother and brothers and sisters of Jesus are called "His brethren" by scripture (v.46). This is correct because of the MOTHER. But our Lord Jesus DENIES that they are "brethren" and introduces His disciples as His "brethren". Did our Lord make a mistake?

No, He did not, because He made His brethren based according to the FATHER. This fact is introduced in John 1, and consummated in Chapter 20 on resurrection day;

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(Jn 1:11–13)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

TWO BIRTHS are revealed. One to your parents, and another, separate and distinct, to God the Father IF YOU BELIEVE. Christ's BRETHREN are divided into TWO. Israel - according to the FLESH, OR, the New Man - according to the SPIRIT.

Thus, the DISCIPLES and Israel are NOT the same group. They are light years apart.

[Shilohsfoal]

32 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Perhaps the answer lies in Matthew 12:46-50

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The word "brethren" means that one has the same father. You can only say a man is your "brother" if you have the same father. Now, at the time  the mother and brothers and sisters of Jesus are called "His brethren" by scripture (v.46). This is correct because of the MOTHER. But our Lord Jesus DENIES that they are "brethren" and introduces His disciples as His "brethren". Did our Lord make a mistake?

No, He did not, because He made His brethren based according to the FATHER. This fact is introduced in John 1, and consummated in Chapter 20 on resurrection day;

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(Jn 1:11–13)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

TWO BIRTHS are revealed. One to your parents, and another, separate and distinct, to God the Father IF YOU BELIEVE. Christ's BRETHREN are divided into TWO. Israel - according to the FLESH, OR, the New Man - according to the SPIRIT.

Thus, the DISCIPLES and Israel are NOT the same group. They are light years apart.

The disciples are children of Israel.Direct descendents of Jacob just like the 144000 servants of God.

This reminds me of God's servant named Israel ,out of who's mouth goes a sharp sword and is a light unto the gentiles.

You say Israel can not be in Christ.How about this Israel?

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

² And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

³ And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

⁴ Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

⁵ And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

⁶ And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

 

Edited February 16 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:18 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

The disciples are children of Israel.Direct descendents of Jacob just like the 144000 servants of God.

No! They are a New Creature with no past. I did not say this:

 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Co 5:16–17)

On 2/16/2024 at 3:18 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

This reminds me of God's servant named Israel ,out of who's mouth goes a sharp sword and is a light unto the gentiles.

You say Israel can not be in Christ.How about this Israel?

I await a commentary from you. A rhetorical question is not enough for this passage where more than one speak. But maybe you can address my commentary from Matthew 12.

[Shilohsfoal]

12 hours ago, AdHoc said:

No! They are a New Creature with no past. I did not say this:

 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new (2 Co 5:16–17)

I await a commentary from you. A rhetorical question is not enough for this passage where more than one speak. But maybe you can address my commentary from Matthew 12.

 

Of Course the holy nation of Israel has a past.

 

Exodus 19:6

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
 

 

Just because Christ washes away their sins does not mean they have no ancestors.Abraham ,Issac and Jacob will still be their ancestors even after Jacobs descendents become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.Nothing you can do to change the word of God.What God told the children of israel in Exodus 19:6 will be fulfilled with or without your approval.

 

Look,here they are reigning with Christ in the not so distant future.

 

Revelation 20

⁶ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[tatwo]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:08 AM, Shilohsfoal said:

On 2/15/2024 at 8:58 AM, FJK said:

That's true, but is being Hebrew a requirement for being one of the Two Witnesses?

They are more than likely gentiles.The army they command is definitely gentiles.

Brothers...

In making about "Hebrew, Jew, Gentile, Israeli" whatever natural ethnicity...you miss the point entirely. Allow the Spirit to show you...consider the following verse from Galatians 3  

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." 

Being filled with the Holy Spirit...is to be "in Christ" this is a reference to your "spiritual man - the inner man - eternal man"...it is in Christ. Paul clearly says..."you are all one in Christ Jesus."

While in your "flesh - body - temporal - physical" existence...you may be known by your carnal human attributes..."flesh." When your "human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit"...thus constituting the "New Creation - in Christ - One New Man"...Paul is saying we are not to see each other after the flesh any longer. It is by spiritual discernment "that one brother recognizes another brother." According to a "new race" perhaps is another way to say it.

Now couple that with Paul's teaching from II Corinthians 5..."Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."

The example Paul gives us..."those who know Christ...today...and are in Christ"...is very clear...do you know Christ? If you do...it is not in or after the flesh that you "know" Him...He is no longer knowable as "the man" that walked the earth as God in the "flesh - Body" in the first century.

The two witnesses are "in Christ" and they will not be recognized by their flesh and human genealogy, any more that you can recognize Yahshua that way today...He is a Spirit...you must have "spiritual eyes" to "see or recognize Him"...and that goes for all His family on earth.

The "two witnesses" are "in Christ" brothers...and one must be in Christ to "know them and know who they are."

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

Greetings AdHoc...

I am following along in this forum and your following post popped out at me...I saw your challenge to Shiloh...on your Matthew 12 commentary...perhaps it was not a challenge just looked like it to me.

I feel your breakdown here left me with a clear understand with what you are trying to show here...and I like the fact that I agree. Lets talk about your conclusion a bit if you will. I feel that this discussion (forum title) is important...and needs greater understanding.

On 2/16/2024 at 7:46 AM, AdHoc said:

Perhaps the answer lies in Matthew 12:46-50

46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The word "brethren" means that one has the same father. You can only say a man is your "brother" if you have the same father. Now, at the time  the mother and brothers and sisters of Jesus are called "His brethren" by scripture (v.46). This is correct because of the MOTHER. But our Lord Jesus DENIES that they are "brethren" and introduces His disciples as His "brethren". Did our Lord make a mistake?

No, He did not, because He made His brethren based according to the FATHER. This fact is introduced in John 1, and consummated in Chapter 20 on resurrection day;

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(Jn 1:11–13)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I am following with you to this point AdHoc…however the next couple sentences lose me a bit.

On 2/16/2024 at 7:46 AM, AdHoc said:

Christ's BRETHREN are divided into TWO. Israel - according to the FLESH, OR, the New Man - according to the SPIRIT.

I think I can see what you are saying with that statement…however…you “say”…”Christ’s brethren are divided into TWO”…now in reference to your John 1 quote…John is specifically speaking of “become the sons of God” it is these that are “Christ’s brethren” correct? Can you be "Christs brother" without being a "son of God" as you see it?

One new man…neither Jew nor gentile…a new creation…a spiritual man…which no longer includes those who are not sons of God (no Holy Spirit indwelling)…correct? Only the sons of God have the Holy Spirit…is that how you understand this?

On 2/16/2024 at 7:46 AM, AdHoc said:

Thus, the DISCIPLES and Israel are NOT the same group. They are light years apart.

Can you define these “light years apart” perhaps?

Tatwo...:)

[luigi]

The two witnesses in Revelation 11, also appear in Zechariah 4, while the curse that goes over the face of the whole world (Zechariah 5:3), the beasts system is in power.

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

[Shilohsfoal]

54 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Brothers...

In making about "Hebrew, Jew, Gentile, Israeli" whatever natural ethnicity...you miss the point entirely. Allow the Spirit to show you...consider the following verse from Galatians 3  

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." 

Being filled with the Holy Spirit...is to be "in Christ" this is a reference to your "spiritual man - the inner man - eternal man"...it is in Christ. Paul clearly says..."you are all one in Christ Jesus."

While in your "flesh - body - temporal - physical" existence...you may be known by your carnal human attributes..."flesh." When your "human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit"...thus constituting the "New Creation - in Christ - One New Man"...Paul is saying we are not to see each other after the flesh any longer. It is by spiritual discernment "that one brother recognizes another brother." According to a "new race" perhaps is another way to say it.

Now couple that with Paul's teaching from II Corinthians 5..."Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."

The example Paul gives us..."those who know Christ...today...and are in Christ"...is very clear...do you know Christ? If you do...it is not in or after the flesh that you "know" Him...He is no longer knowable as "the man" that walked the earth as God in the "flesh - Body" in the first century.

The two witnesses are "in Christ" and they will not be recognized by their flesh and human genealogy, any more that you can recognize Yahshua that way today...He is a Spirit...you must have "spiritual eyes" to "see or recognize Him"...and that goes for all His family on earth.

The "two witnesses" are "in Christ" brothers...and one must be in Christ to "know them and know who they are."

Tatwo...:)

The two witnesses break every commandment Christ gives in the gospel.

I'm sure they shall be rewarded as they have done.