Why there are no two Witnesses of Moses with Elijah and 144k Sealed Hebrew in modern Israel

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, tatwo said:

Greetings AdHoc...

I am following along in this forum and your following post popped out at me...I saw your challenge to Shiloh...on your Matthew 12 commentary...perhaps it was not a challenge just looked like it to me.

I feel your breakdown here left me with a clear understand with what you are trying to show here...and I like the fact that I agree. Lets talk about your conclusion a bit if you will. I feel that this discussion (forum title) is important...and needs greater understanding.

I am following with you to this point AdHoc…however the next couple sentences lose me a bit.

I think I can see what you are saying with that statement…however…you “say”…”Christ’s brethren are divided into TWO”…now in reference to your John 1 quote…John is specifically speaking of “become the sons of God” it is these that are “Christ’s brethren” correct? Can you be "Christs brother" without being a "son of God" as you see it?

One new man…neither Jew nor gentile…a new creation…a spiritual man…which no longer includes those who are not sons of God (no Holy Spirit indwelling)…correct? Only the sons of God have the Holy Spirit…is that how you understand this?

Can you define these “light years apart” perhaps?

Tatwo...:)

Thank you for your query. The word "brethren" means you are "brothers". And brothers are "brothers" because they have the same father.

1. Jesus is "brother" to all Israelites because they had Isaac as their "father". So also Paul. He is "brother" to all Israelites because they all came out of Isaac's loins. So in Romans 9:3-4 Paul calls Israel "my brethren". But this connection came from sexual intercourse and the womb. So Paul calls them "brethren according to the FLESH"

2. Jesus is born by the Holy Spirit (Lk.1:35). This breaks the connection to Adam, who sinned and then passed on the sinful nature to all men after him (Rom:5:12-17). His "Father" is not Adam or Isaac. He is till connected to Adam, but via the WOMAN - and she dos not transmit the sin-nature. So via the woman He is "brother" to Israel and via the Holy Spirit He is "brother" to all born again Christians.

But Peter says;

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1st Pet.1:23–25)

Here you can compare the two births. The flesh is corruptible and temporal. The Word of God is incorruptible and eternal. These two seeds are VERY far apart in substance and quality. The ETERNAL Spirit of a glorious God compared to the fallen, corrupt, sweating, unclean flesh of men.

You are right about the New Man having no Jew or Greek. It is a fully NEW CREATION (2nd Cor.5:17). Just remember that in Ephesians 2:15 God makes this New Man OUT OF TWO OLD MEN. That is, te New Man is made of SOME ISRAELITES and SOME HEATHEN. As you know, many are not used for the New Man. That means that there are many Israelites still, and there are many of the Nations left over. Thus, there are THREE peoples on earth. (i) The New Man, (ii) Te Nations, and (iii) The Nation of Israel.

1. The Nations come from Adam and Noah
2. The Nation of Israel comes from Noah via Isaac
3. The New Man has no genealogy. It comes out of the Holy Spirit. The Old is "passed away".

Nice talking to you. God bless.

[Shilohsfoal]

On 2/16/2024 at 6:07 AM, AdHoc said:

Not at all. Romans 11 says that ISRAEL will remain hard and blind to the END. Galatians 3:28 and Colossians 3:11 say that there is no Jew in the New Man. By calling them Israelites He banishes any thought of them being part of the New Man. Dan is missing. Yet scripture says "of ALL the tribes of Israel". This makes the 144,000 REPRESENTATIVE of Israel. The Tribes of Israel are "sealed" so as not to be hurt by the Great Tribulation (9:4), not sealed by the Holy Spirit as guarantee of resurrection like the Church.

They are Israelites. They being named Israelites makes them those who rejected their Messiah. Them being called "Israelites" makes them Paul's brethren "according to the FLESH" (Rom.9:3-4). A believer is a NEW CREATURE. Israelites came from Jacob.

God said he would make a new covenant with Israel .It appears that you are saying God breaks his word and does not make a new covenant with Israel.

 

Jeremiah 31

³¹ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

³² Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

³³ But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

I'm pretty sure there have been many of Israel whom God has placed his law in their inward parts.

Paul is one of them.

Romans 11:1

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

 

oh wait You said he banishes all of them who are called Israelites.That would include Paul the Israelite.

 

Sorry Paul,AdHoc says you can't be part of the new man because your an Israelite 

 

[TrueFollowerOfChrist]

On 2/5/2024 at 5:04 PM, R. Hartono said:

Arent they supposed to come in the end Times Israel like the old time desert ?

The two witnesses only appear in scripture during the tribulation period. The 144,000 also only appear during the tribulation. We are not currently in the tribulation therefore we would not see any of these individuals yet.

[tatwo]

17 hours ago, luigi said:

The two witnesses in Revelation 11, also appear in Zechariah 4

Yes...it is there that we get the old covenantal prophetic and symbolic explanation. Have you deconstructed it Luigi?

 

17 hours ago, luigi said:

while the curse that goes over the face of the whole world (Zechariah 5:3), the beasts system is in power.

What's the connection as you see it?

Tatwo...:)

[tatwo]

17 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The two witnesses break every commandment Christ gives in the gospel.

Shiloh...either you are being facetious...you do not understand...which is it?

Tatwo...:)

[luigi]

7 minutes ago, tatwo said:

 

 

What's the connection as you see it?

Tatwo...:)

Good morning Tatwo,

 

The curse that goes over the whole earth in Zechariah 5:3 are the beasts economic policies that will reign over the whole world for forty-two months. This global curse/policies of the beast appear also in Isaiah 24:6, and describe the earths environment in tatters because of it. Good News is, it will fall never to rise again, following the beasts 42 month reign (Isaiah 24:20).

Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

Isaiah 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

 

[tatwo]

9 hours ago, TrueFollowerOfChrist said:

We are not currently in the tribulation therefore we would not see any of these individuals yet.

Why such an almost "fatalistic or perhaps better said dogmatic" perspective TFOC?

I understand that according to your admission "you" believe that you are not in what you define as "tribulation"...which is fine for you.

However at the same time there is an affliction upon the world that has never been seen before...and it grows and increases in strength day by day...it has gripped the entire world and is not stopping. I have followed it closely for nearly 20 years.

If you are "not currently in the tribulation" good for you friend...and it is either that or you simply cannot discern its source and effect.

As for those who bear the "mark" of the witnesses...they are here of course...once again...simply because "you" TFOC don't, can't or have not seen them does not mean they are not here...

I urge you to "soften" your approach to these things and gain some deeper understanding...and that would be for your own good...TFOC.

Tatwo...:)

[Shilohsfoal]

21 minutes ago, tatwo said:

Shiloh...either you are being facetious...you do not understand...which is it?

Tatwo...:)

Oh,I understand perfectly.

 

Jesus commands his witnesses to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

So the two witnesses go forth tormenting  everyone and killing anyone they choose.

The two witnesses are doing exactly what Jesus said some of his servants would do  at the the time of the end.

 

Mathew 24:48-51

But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’
and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk?
The master will return unannounced and unexpected,

and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

 

Now are you going to look at their works or will you blindly say they do good because they are Jesus's servants?

[tatwo]

11 minutes ago, luigi said:

The curse that goes over the whole earth in Zechariah 5:3 are the beasts economic policies that will reign over the whole world for forty-two months. This global curse/policies of the beast appear also in Isaiah 24:6, and describe the earths environment in tatters because of it. Good News is, it will fall never to rise again, following the beasts 42 month reign (Isaiah 24:20).

Yes...yes as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time working through both the end of the age and more specifically the rule of the beast...I can agree with you here...nice work bro...thanks.

Have you "seen" the beast in action? Have you seen the witnesses? Just curious...

Tatwo...:) 

[tatwo]

5 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Oh,I understand perfectly.

Perfectly in other words there are no options here for you?

13 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus commands his witnesses to do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

So the two witnesses go forth tormenting  everyone and killing anyone they choose.

The two witnesses are doing exactly what Jesus said some of his servants would do  at the the time of the end.

And of course here is "your perfect understanding" correct?

You have these two witnesses going forth "tormenting and killing anyone they choose" to whom then...are they bearing witness? The reason I ask is because I cannot see the Lord Yahshua Christ or any of the sons of God ever doing such a thing. 

Essentially that could be seen as undermining the Gospel of the Kingdom of God on earth...really. Additionally that type of action is uncharacteristic of the Lord Yahshua.

Perhaps we can "sharpen" your "perfect understanding"...or not?

Tatwo...:)